2 ms·

This reeks of whataboutism. IP theft is problematic and nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has. The Chinese intelligence apparatus is active

This reeks of whataboutism. IP theft is problematic and nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has. The Chinese intelligence apparatus is actively engaged in IP theft as well.

rjzzleep 7y ago
It's how innovation happened throughout human history. The entire oh so celebrated age of enlightenment happened this way. Nobody would come to the conclusion to call that IP theft though.
tedivm 7y ago
The entire US Industrial Revolution was kicked off by Francis Cabot Lowell stealing the designs of British power looms. Alexander Hamilton, as treasury secretary, adopted an actual policy of stealing technology and sent spies to Britain as well. This is how it works. Countries without technology steal it from those that do. It's basically a market force- if you don't make it available at something approaching a reasonable cost then it will be duplicated through research or just directly stolen.
- benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
  But you are only comparing what is outwardly done and neglecting the motivations, the human factor. Our founding fathers were good people, their hearts were in the right place. The Chinese are bad people, we can all agree with that. Identical actions can still be morally different because they proceed from different motives.
- beerandt 7y ago
  Context: The two countries were still enemies at the time and on the verge of war. If I recall my history correctly, the trade routes collapsed when Britain stopped selling America textiles, stopped buying American cotton and then tried to blockade the entire country. Yes stealing the loom filled a void in the American market, but in this case Britain isn't exactly blameless. It wasn't really the same market forces that we see today, unless I'm missing something. China's not stealing IP to fill any market void.
  - sharpneli 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon See Patent Dispute. I’m not saying US does this as much as China. It would be hard as US is the tech leader in many fields. But whenever US is not a tech leader they happily engage in government sanctioned industrial espionage (Not Officially Officially sanctioned but wink and nod whoopsie kind of). Thus the complaints about what China is doing ring hollow.
ARandomerDude 7y ago
> nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has Translation: what about all the countries that aren't as bad as China? A certain amount of "whataboutism" is unavoidable if you attempt to make any comparative statments, or believe inductive reasoning is possible.
- rjf72 7y ago
  I also think 'whataboutism' is critical to maintain logic consistency and try to avoid bias. For instance imagine I dislike group X, and and I use a condemnation of action A (which they engage in) as part of the justification for that dislike. If my condemnation of A is valid and genuine supportive evidence of my rationale for disliking X then A should be bad in contexts other than when X is engaging in it. And so comparing A when done by actors other than X is absolutely critical in determining whether it's actually indeed a bad action, or whether I'm simply clouded by bias and calling it bad because of my dislike of X. In searching Google Trends it's somewhat unsurprising to find that 'whataboutism' as a term didn't even really exist until around 2017 [1] when partisan driven bias and antagonism started to exponentially skyrocket. It's quite an insidious term since it helps deflect potentially logical critique of irrational views, but has a paradoxical connotation of legitimacy and intellectual authenticity. [1] - https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=whataboutism https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=w...
mda 7y ago
It is whataboutism I agree, whenever something about China comes up the very first comment is usually a "what about... "
benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
"extent" is irrelevant in this context because we are not comparing individual people but groups, and China has a much larger population than other countries. The real problem is not quantity but quality. IP theft done by better human beings is perfectly justifiable.
- linuxdude314 7y ago
  Notice how your other posts have already been deleted? How do you define a better human being? Let me guess, you fit in that group!
  - benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
    Absolutely. Am I making any error (either of fact, or of reasoning) in believing I myself to be a better human being than the Chinese? I'm genuinely curious.
    - dang 7y ago
      We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jdnenej 7y ago
IP theft does not exist. IP is an invalid concept and can not exist in a free society.
- oska 7y ago
  Agreed. The whole 'IP theft' story is bullshit and founded on an intellectual fiction (that ideas can be property).
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
> This reeks of whataboutism ... nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has. I hope you see the irony (hypocrisy?) in this statement.
coldtea 7y ago
>This reeks of whataboutism Yes, aka "putting things in perspective" and "not doing one-sided criticism"... Why don't all these whatabouters don't just let us blame whoever we want, and keep mum for shit ourselves or our friends did/do?

This reeks of whataboutism. IP theft is problematic and nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has. The Chinese intelligence apparatus is actively engaged in IP theft as well.

rjzzleep 7y ago

It's how innovation happened throughout human history. The entire oh so celebrated age of enlightenment happened this way. Nobody would come to the conclusion to call that IP theft though.

tedivm 7y ago

The entire US Industrial Revolution was kicked off by Francis Cabot Lowell stealing the designs of British power looms. Alexander Hamilton, as treasury secretary, adopted an actual policy of stealing technology and sent spies to Britain as well. This is how it works. Countries without technology steal it from those that do. It's basically a market force- if you don't make it available at something approaching a reasonable cost then it will be duplicated through research or just directly stolen.

benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
But you are only comparing what is outwardly done and neglecting the motivations, the human factor. Our founding fathers were good people, their hearts were in the right place. The Chinese are bad people, we can all agree with that. Identical actions can still be morally different because they proceed from different motives.
beerandt 7y ago
Context: The two countries were still enemies at the time and on the verge of war. If I recall my history correctly, the trade routes collapsed when Britain stopped selling America textiles, stopped buying American cotton and then tried to blockade the entire country. Yes stealing the loom filled a void in the American market, but in this case Britain isn't exactly blameless. It wasn't really the same market forces that we see today, unless I'm missing something. China's not stealing IP to fill any market void.
- sharpneli 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon See Patent Dispute. I’m not saying US does this as much as China. It would be hard as US is the tech leader in many fields. But whenever US is not a tech leader they happily engage in government sanctioned industrial espionage (Not Officially Officially sanctioned but wink and nod whoopsie kind of). Thus the complaints about what China is doing ring hollow.

ARandomerDude 7y ago

> nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has Translation: what about all the countries that aren't as bad as China? A certain amount of "whataboutism" is unavoidable if you attempt to make any comparative statments, or believe inductive reasoning is possible.

rjf72 7y ago
I also think 'whataboutism' is critical to maintain logic consistency and try to avoid bias. For instance imagine I dislike group X, and and I use a condemnation of action A (which they engage in) as part of the justification for that dislike. If my condemnation of A is valid and genuine supportive evidence of my rationale for disliking X then A should be bad in contexts other than when X is engaging in it. And so comparing A when done by actors other than X is absolutely critical in determining whether it's actually indeed a bad action, or whether I'm simply clouded by bias and calling it bad because of my dislike of X. In searching Google Trends it's somewhat unsurprising to find that 'whataboutism' as a term didn't even really exist until around 2017 [1] when partisan driven bias and antagonism started to exponentially skyrocket. It's quite an insidious term since it helps deflect potentially logical critique of irrational views, but has a paradoxical connotation of legitimacy and intellectual authenticity. [1] - https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=whataboutism https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=w...

mda 7y ago

It is whataboutism I agree, whenever something about China comes up the very first comment is usually a "what about... "

benjaminbrodie2 7y ago

"extent" is irrelevant in this context because we are not comparing individual people but groups, and China has a much larger population than other countries. The real problem is not quantity but quality. IP theft done by better human beings is perfectly justifiable.

linuxdude314 7y ago
Notice how your other posts have already been deleted? How do you define a better human being? Let me guess, you fit in that group!
- benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
  Absolutely. Am I making any error (either of fact, or of reasoning) in believing I myself to be a better human being than the Chinese? I'm genuinely curious.
  - dang 7y ago
    We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jdnenej 7y ago

IP theft does not exist. IP is an invalid concept and can not exist in a free society.

oska 7y ago
Agreed. The whole 'IP theft' story is bullshit and founded on an intellectual fiction (that ideas can be property).

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

> This reeks of whataboutism ... nobody has ever engaged in it to the extent that China has. I hope you see the irony (hypocrisy?) in this statement.

coldtea 7y ago

>This reeks of whataboutism Yes, aka "putting things in perspective" and "not doing one-sided criticism"... Why don't all these whatabouters don't just let us blame whoever we want, and keep mum for shit ourselves or our friends did/do?