9 ms·
The inevitable result of letting the manufacturer control what may run on the device.
by deogeo 7y ago
The inevitable result of letting the manufacturer control what may run on the device.
- rsj_hn 7y agoAgreed. However, Android has removed Gab and other free speech apps from it's appstore, too. Although you can circumvent android easier than iOS. This is a tough call -- security versus freedom, and I don't know what the right trade off is. I'd still counsel my parents to use Apple.
- derrick_jensen 7y ago100% freedom, all the time "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin I'm not sure about iOS, but Android still allows installing unsigned APKs (F-Droid and similar platforms work because of this), and what has already been installed stays on the phone until the user removes it.
- Shank 7y agoYou kind of can compile and run anything you want, but by default free developer accounts can only run 3 apps for 7 days until they expire. Tools like Cydia Impactor exist for this purpose.
- bilbo0s 7y ago"I'm not sure about iOS, but Android still allows installing [unsigned APKs likely hacked with spyware integrated courtesy of the Chinese government]" The kind of "freedom" you're talking about generally has a high cost. At times, that cost is, well, "freedom". Frustrating actually. There is no platform out there that delivers on the promise of getting you security and freedom. Certainly none that get you privacy. Right now it's all marketing and fanboys, but where the rubber meets the road, there's just no grip.
- derrick_jensen 7y agoAn untrusted APK is just an APK that isn't signed by Google. They can still be signed by third parties and verified to be correct. It's a shame that more open source platforms haven't taken off, but I'm not too surprised. I don't understand what you mean by the first sentence. Can you be more specific when you say freedom?
- Craighead 7y agoEverytime this quote gets brought up Benny rolls in his grave. The rights are self evident that we make laws that govern ourselves. Get over yourself.
- dang 7y agoPersonal attacks will get you banned here, and you've unfortunately done this before as well (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034818). Please edit such swipes out of the comments you post to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cortesoft 7y ago100% freedom is an absolutely banal phrase. What does it even mean? I am pretty sure that you don't mean someone is 100% free to murder someone else. So you clearly believe in some restrictions. I can already imagine the counter argument: "Well, 100% freedom unless your freedom infringes on someone else's freedom!" Ok, but what does it mean to infringe on someone else's freedom? Murder is the easy case; what about polluting a river? I think we would all agree dumping enough chemicals to kill all life in a river would be infringing on other's freedoms, so lets prevent that... but where do you draw the line? It will take judgement, consensus, and compromise to find out where that line is. So suddenly we are back to needing rules around curtailing freedoms that some people aren't going to like.
- derrick_jensen 7y agoI agree that 100% freedom was pretty hyperbole. AnCap + the NAP is probably a better comparison (but still lacks some nuance). In the case of user privacy, I'm against any backdoors or outlawing of encryption (pretty much any government intervention in the messaging space)
- dotancohen 7y agoThe corollary to this quote is that there are people who do not deserve Liberty. Or Safety.
- song 7y agoSee, that's a dilemma I grappling with right now. I am trying to decide between an iphone and an android phone. And while android does allow me to install any APKs I want which is great. It also seems to be supremely difficult not to share all of my contacts with google, not to share more information than I want with them and to not have my privacy completely invaded. So, on one hand, android gives me freedom to install any app I want and to install a firewall like netguard, on the other hand, it destroys my privacy. I'm really looking for a guide about how to properly secure and prevent data leaking an android phone beyond the basics that I've seen online but without that I'm leaning toward Apple despite finding it abhorrent that I cannot install what I want on my own device (I can obviously side load by using my dev certificate but that's still not something I'm happy with)
- lern_too_spel 7y ago> not to share all of my contacts with google You can do this even using the Google Contacts app. Just go into the account settings and turn off contacts sync. To be extra sure, just use a different contacts app. > not have my privacy completely invaded. Android has strictly less privacy invasion than iOS, even on Google phones. You can set an offline maps app to be your default. Getting your GPS location doesn't have to send it to Google, while doing the same thing on iOS always sends it to Apple, no matter which app asked. You can install your own apps usably without telling Google who you are.
- xurias 7y agoThe only feasible way to avoid sharing data with Google is using a custom ROM like LineageOS, a Google framework replacement like microG, and XPrivacyLua (module for XPosed). Ideally you'd avoid using any Google services at all, but at least these steps largely prevent Google from freely taking whatever data they want if you do use the Play Store or whatever.
- song 7y agoProblem with that is that unlocking the bootloader voids the warranty where I live... I think I'll still try to go down that road if I can't find any other solution...
- echelon 7y ago> security versus freedom With the app store you're still vulnerable to state actors and zero day vulns. And on Android you're vulnerable to permissions scope creep. The app stores contain malware. You're never truly safe. You can't point to the old days of Windows in the 90s and early 2000s as a case for app stores, either. Installers and downloaded executables were great, but Windows had a broken, unsandboxed model that made it easy to break. History would have played out much better if Windows itself weren't so permissible and was more hermetic back then. If we invested the same billions of research and development dollars that Apple and Google did into their walled garden platforms, an open web with truly cross platform native wasm apps would work just as well or better than anything on the app stores, and it'd be just as "secure". And cross platform. And couldn't be shut down by Apple, Google, or an angry government. Imagine going to Netflix.com and getting the native app experience. On any mobile device. Windows Phone. Ubuntu Phone. That's how it should have worked. Walled gardens must die.
- pjmlp 7y agoI guess that is why everyone just uses Chrome nowadays. /s
- echelon 7y agoGoogle searches used to present Chrome as an app you should download. Google leveraged its market dominance to get people to download their desktop browser. And on Android it's the default you can't uninstall.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Razengan 7y ago> Walled gardens must die. No. As a user, I am grateful for "walled gardens" like the App Store, Steam, etc. Because I remember the chaos that was before them, with developers/publishers preying on users all the time, which they still try to do by working around App Store restrictions and so on. I'm grateful for curated marketplaces putting the foot down on them.
- on_and_off 7y agoYou don't have to circumvent anything and that's the crux of it. Android lets you install applications without having to jailbreak your phone or do any other trickery. This should be a prerequisite for any OS (with all the necessary warnings).
- innagadadavida 7y agoThere are at least two ways to install apps outside of the App Store: https://www.iotransfer.net/tips/how-to-download-apps-without-app-store-865.php https://www.iotransfer.net/tips/how-to-download-apps-without... In addition you could use TestFlight or HockeyApp to distribute to limited beta testers. HN is a technical forum, proselytizing based on your software freedom beliefs by selectively using facts is very disingenuous. Android works for you, that is great - other people actually have “freedom” to ignore your definition of freedom and do what they want.
- lern_too_spel 7y agoYour solution is to use an enterprise certificate from Anokiiwin Employment Solutions Inc or NANJING SCIYON SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD. Both will certainly get revoked soon. HN is a technical forum, so we understand why your solution doesn't actually work.
- innagadadavida 7y agoThat’s really funny, trusting my entire data, location, photos all to Google is certainly a big concern for me. I’d rather install that Chinese certificate than give my data to Google. Also, it’s entirely within Googles powers to make Android store closed like the App Store, so can we not speculate on future events? Edit: reworded my comment
- thekyle 7y agoPlease don't use these types of irrelevant personal attacks on HN. /u/lern_to_spel has a very good point that your mentioned alternatives will likely be shut down by Apple and are not officially supported. If you are going to argue, do it against the most generous interpretation of someone else's words.
- radley 7y ago> Android has removed Gab and other free speech apps from it's appstore, too Gab was removed for hate speech, not free speech.
- romaaeterna 7y agoWhat a hateful comment about Gab users! Surely we don't need to muzzle you? Edit: (And what hateful downvotes!)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- fennecfoxen 7y agoYou say that as if a meaningful, non-political distinction can ever be made between "hate speech" and "free speech".
- zapita 7y agoDo you consider the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be political? If so: you are equipped with the necessary building blocks to define hate speech in a non-political way. If not: your definition of “political” is so broad as to be meaningless.
- voldacar 7y ago>Do you consider the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be political? Well yes tbh. The fact that a certain group of people in power at a certain point in history made a "universal declaration" about something says very little about whether I or anyone else should care about it or agree with it. In other words it is the epitome of political. I am happy to make up my own mind on the nature of "human rights".
- rndgermandude 7y agoIt is clearly political, and not so universal either by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rig...
- kyriakos 7y agoAndroid has multiple stores though and even if none of them carry the app you can still side load it.
- jakelazaroff 7y agoLet's not whitewash Gab, which was created specifically to be a white supremacist social network under the veneer of free speech. We can argue whether or not Google should have removed it from the Play Store, but let's be honest about what it is.
- el_dev_hell 7y agoI signed up for Gab about 1.5 years ago. It pegged itself as a "free speech platform", which I found pretty interesting. The concept of a wild west free speech utopia sounds great (and I would still like to see that), but it's filled with repetitive white nationalist bullshit. That's the early adopter group. Because of that early group, it's a horrible experience for anyone else.
- jakelazaroff 7y agoIt's not just their early adopter group; Gab has actively cultivated a white nationalist userbase. See for example https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384 https://twitter.com/ClenchedFisk/status/1027690034718224384 I am skeptical of the "wild west free speech utopia" as a lot of people seem to conceive of it, because some forms of speech have chilling effects on others. For example, if I pass a group of angry people chanting "blood and soil", I'm certainly not going to say or do anything that makes me legible as Jewish.
- wallace_f 7y agoWhich is sad. Because if everyone tolerates abuse, whether from governments or corporations, we get creeping authoritarianism. Also, I think you bith are exaggerating a bit about Gabhere is obviously a lot of alt right though.
- SkyBelow 7y agoAny early adopter of a technology promising freedom will be the groups who need it the most, which tends to be the groups who are most at odds with current social norms. Just look at who the early adopters are for tor or bitcoin.
- 7y ago
- enraged_camel 7y ago>>However, Android has removed Gab and other free speech apps Gab is not a "free speech app". In fact, the term "free speech app" is itself laughable.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago> security versus freedom, and I don't know what the right trade off is That is not a trade off at all, if you believe that you have already fallen for the propaganda. Security in and of itself has no value that you could trade off against freedom, only the freedom part of that pair is valuable. Security is a means to the end of freedom: You may need a certain kind and/or amount of security to gain and maintain freedom. But security is also a means to authoritarianism if you do it wrong. Which means: Security is only valuable in so far as it causes a net increase in freedom. If you are actually giving up freedom to make space for more security, that is, you are trading off freedom against security, you have failed.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- fouc 7y agoRemoving the app from the app store doesn't actually stop the app from running on the device?
- slimsag 7y ago"The poor can put whatever they want in their refrigerators - we don't control that. We just control the food they can buy in stores."
- millstone 7y agoWhat prevents a website from offering the same service? Honest question.
- another-one-off 7y agoGuessing: Got to have a system that is resistant to single points of failure and where the costs of knocking out a communication node is high relative to the benefits the government gets. A website is quite centralised.
- swiley 7y agoAt least on the iPhone websites can’t do peer to peer or notifications.
- djmetzle 7y ago:point_up: That.