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No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
- tsumnia 7y agoCurious they built up so much steam about refuting past notions... but chose a poor method (viewing actor's eyes). Paul Ekman has noted that assessing the emotional state from a single picture is difficult. Not to mention unless using genuine emotional faces, you're having actors "play" an emotion rather than feel it (Method vs. Mamet style acting ignored)
- _iyig 7y agoGood point. See also, the Kuleshov effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_effect
- phkahler 7y agoCouldn't agree with you more about the need for authenticity in tests of reading emotions. How could you possibly say someone got it wrong when they did not.
- acoye 7y agoWhat is "cognitive empathy"? Is it a subtype of empathy where the brain is making a conscious work, or just a fancy way to say it ?
- rmilejczz 7y agoCognitive empathy is distinguished from affective empathy; put simply cognitive empathy is your perception of another persons emotional state and affective empathy is your perception of the correct emotional response to another persons emotional state.
- porknubbins 7y agoInteresting, I wonder if theres is a term for people with good cognitive empathy but poor affective empathy because I often feel like I can read someone body language and signals but usually have trouble expressing sympathy to the extent that when I hear someone died I have to monitor closely to try to react appropriately and not say anything weird.
- zozbot234 7y agoThose would be the psychopaths and sociopaths, but I don't think you're among them. These folks basically lack the relevant social emotions altogether, so they end up being quite materialistic and self-centered. They can and do figure out that other emotions somehow exist and that they're socially expected to show them, but they have no "hardwired" intuition for their affective implications, so they'll have a whole lot of trouble negotiating constructively with others. They're deeply prone to thinking that everyone else is just like themselves, self-centered and quite willing to screw others in pursuit of their own goals. I.e. their affective impairments do have significant implications on the theory-of-mind/'cognitive' side of things, but those implications are very different from the troubles of someone on the autistic spectrum. In a way, they're the very opposite! (In fact, if you're somewhat on the spectrum and basically aware of what makes psychopaths tick, you can even have a lot of fun spotting them and interacting with them. Their attempts at superficial charm will most likely fall flat, while their lack of deep integrity and engagement will be blatantly obvious to you - but they'll probably be assuming the very opposite! So it's quite easy to figure out what they're going for and anticipate their moves.)
- EndXA 7y agoThe relevant definition from the original research paper: > One important element of social cognition is ‘cognitive empathy’, which constitutes the capacity to infer from observation the emotions, beliefs and goals of others.
- dahdum 7y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification Cognitive is the capacity to understand others emotional state, not necessarily react accordingly (affective empathy). I’m not surprised by this result, perspective taking and theory of mind is like the basic building block of consciousness. It would be odd if it differed.
- acoye 7y agoBut could it differ for "affective empathy" then?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- daenz 7y ago>Prior to this work, the strongest evidence for a link between testosterone exposure and reduced cognitive empathy came in 2011 in a study that found administering testosterone to healthy women reduced their performance on a test of reading emotions. The results suggested the testosterone impaired their performance. That's interesting. Adult males typically have 7-8 times the levels that females do, and females are more sensitive to it. I'd hypothesize that injecting females with extra testosterone was just plain mentally disorienting. I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they felt about and processed the world. Female biology isn't adapted to high levels of testosterone like a males biology is.
- logicprog 7y agoThat's actually very interesting, do you know if/how they described the differences in perception?
- daenz 7y agoThey have a public blog/vlog, here's the "Testosterone" tag: https://mylifewithtits.wordpress.com/category/testosterone-2/page/1/ https://mylifewithtits.wordpress.com/category/testosterone-2...
- wayoutthere 7y agoI can describe my own (FWIW I went the other direction). Best way I can say it is that my own understanding of emotion was rather black-and-white when on testosterone. I intellectually knew that other people had emotions beyond anger or sadness, but had no frame of reference for what that meant. I tended to see major challenges as obstacles to be overcome through force of will. On estrogen it's like seeing the world in color -- I'm more volatile, but I actually have what I consider emotions! I understand the subtleties in my own emotions far better, which has made me a lot more empathetic to them in others. I also tend to see challenges as a sign I need to change my approach rather than just try harder. I have had to stop hormones a few times for various reasons, and when things revert to being testosterone-dominant, I feel as if things revert to black-and-white over the course of a month or so. I also think that just giving women a little testosterone and measuring the effect isn't likely to show much -- what seems to matter in my experience is whether the body is androgen-dominant or estrogen-dominant (the in-between areas are very not-fun, with lots of headaches, hot flashes, etc.)
- throwawaymanbot 7y agoI'm so glad this important article shot up to #1 in the HN frontpage.
- ve55 7y ago>In the largest study of its kind, results challenge the notion of autism as reflecting an “extreme male brain.” I don't see how this is related, unless you think the only 'maleness' that can exist in a brain is testosterone levels. There are so many things that could be tested and analyzed here besides testosterone levels.
- laughinghan 7y agoOf course it's not the only 'maleness' that could be tested and analyzed, but the article say it is the one most strongly linked to autism. > Prior to this work, the strongest evidence for a link between testosterone exposure and reduced cognitive empathy came in 2011 in a study that [...] supported the idea that prenatal testosterone exposure created a more masculinized brain that less readily inferred the emotional state of others. The study was used as support for the “extreme male brain” hypothesis of autism, which contends that autism is an exaggeration of “male” tendencies toward a cognitive style characterized by systemizing over empathizing.
- tomlock 7y agoWhat's cool is that if people take a more nuanced view of gender and sex than saying it can be measured by one test with only two options, it means they can't take the narrow view that either of those things are binary. Here's hoping!
- djsumdog 7y agoI don't think that's what's being suggested at here at all. In the past few years, there has been an overemphasis on "maleness" being bad and leading to negative. In a lot of western social history (and even a lot of eastern societies) there has always been the concept of "the divine feminine" (Mother earth, goddesses and so fourth). We've seen the growing emphasis of bad men and toxic masculinity; as if the man has a propensity for toxicity (anecdotally we've all known toxic people who were both men and women. They might generally be toxic in different ways, but that does change that no biological sex has a monopoly on being shitty human beings). I think what's more interesting from the study is all the statements about correlation with small samples sizes. As mentioned by other comments, even this study doesn't seem remotely conclusive. It's focused on testosterone, because men generally have way more of it. I think it's more of a conversation starter on more research that should be done than anything else.
- EndXA 7y agoAbstract of the original paper: > The capacity to infer others' mental states (known as ‘mind reading’ and ‘cognitive empathy’) is essential for social interactions across species, and its impairment characterizes psychopathological conditions such as autism spectrum disorder and schizophrenia. Previous studies reported that testosterone administration impaired cognitive empathy in healthy humans, and that a putative biomarker of prenatal testosterone exposure (finger digit ratios) moderated the effect. However, empirical support for the relationship has relied on small sample studies with mixed evidence. We investigate the reliability and generalizability of the relationship in two large-scale double-blind placebo-controlled experiments in young men (n = 243 and n = 400), using two different testosterone administration protocols. We find no evidence that cognitive empathy is impaired by testosterone administration or associated with digit ratios. With an unprecedented combined sample size, these results counter current theories and previous high-profile reports, and demonstrate that previous investigations of this topic have been statistically underpowered. From: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1062 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.106...
- somequixote 7y agoThis abstract exhibits a trifecta of clarity, specificity, and interest. Bravo.
- vanderZwan 7y agoSo... is this a tentative win for the nurture crowd then? Or did they strictly only show that there is no correlation between testosterone, without going into alternative options? EDIT: glaugh's comment[0] explains why it is not. TLDR: this research debunks earlier research with a similar scope, but more long-term effects of testosterone are not accounted for. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21143846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21143846
- jeffreyrogers 7y agoI don't think nature vs. nurture is a good way of thinking about complicated biological phenomena. For example, take height. We know from recent GWAS[0] that many genes are associated with height[1]. We also know that poor nutrition in early life will lead to severe stunting, regardless of genetics. My model for thinking about these things is genes delimit the scope of possibilities, environment (some of which is prenatal or early childhood and very hard to change) determines what possibilities turn into reality. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome-wide_association_study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome-wide_association_study [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30124842 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30124842
- devwastaken 7y agoIsn't testosterone simply a byproduct of other hormonal processes? More of a measurement of effect than cause?
- shoes_for_thee 7y agoAh, no. Adding extra testosterone to any human will cause them to become more male by any measure of maleness.
- adrr 7y agoAnd also more female as the testosterone is aromatized in estrogen.
- perardi 7y agoI guess? It's intimately related to the hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid axis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid_axis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid... But I'm not sure what you're getting at. Trust me, inject 500mg of testosterone a week, you're going to notice changes.
- CryoLogic 7y agoTestosterone is generated a number of ways in the human body - but most of it comes from the testicles in men. A smaller amount is from the pituitary in both men and women. Depending on your weight there is an enzyme created in fat cells called aromatase which converts testosterone to estrogens which can have an impact on your overall hormonal picture. Testosterone is derived in the body from cholesterol, which is way proper fat consumption is so important for a healthy endocrine system.
- meiraleal 7y agoIs it? So why administering intramuscular testoterone has anabolic/androgen effects?
- queercode 7y agoI don't think this is true. Intramuscular testosterone is the most common method of HRT for trans men / trans masc folks. The effects of which are not "androgen".
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- eduren 7y agoEDIT: Disregard Comment was: This is testosterone administered to a fully formed brain. While it's still an interesting result, I would hesitate to make extrapolations to brain-developmental environments or developmental disorders.
- danharaj 7y agoDid you overlook the part about finger digit ratios, which are a proxy for testosterone exposure during development?
- zarro 7y agoNotice the keen implication in the title that testosterone causes reduction in cognitive empathy - making the reader now brainstorm ways to prove the hypothesis instead of considering if its the correct question to be asking in the first place. To illustrate my point, consider if this was the title: There is no evidence that being female reduces cognitive function.
- cjslep 7y ago> Notice the keen implication in the title that testosterone causes reduction in cognitive empathy Well, yeah. Kind of a "duh" from the article which quotes the scientist: "Several earlier studies have suggested a connection between testosterone and reduced cognitive empathy..." So no implication needed, creating supporting evidence for that hypothesis was actually already being done, and this one counters that existing narrative.
- tlb 7y agoThe paper's abstract mentions that, "previous studies reported that testosterone administration impaired cognitive empathy in healthy humans." When you're trying to replicate previous studies but get a null result, it's reasonable to put that right in the title.
- blackflame7000 7y agoI think a lot more work needs to be done in quantifying "cognitive empathy" before we can begin to do studies like this. Their methodology for quantification of something so complex is extremely primitive.
- notduncansmith 7y agoI agree. At least the authors are more modest about the findings than the headline: > “[...] it’s important to note that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We found that there is no evidence to support this effect of testosterone, but that doesn’t rule out any possible effects. From what we know, though, it seems that if testosterone does have an influence, the effect is complex, not linear. Reality is typically not that simple.”
- Antoninus 7y agoYou're right, neuroscience these days is too primitive.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- anon1m0us 7y agoIt's amazing that something so sexist could have been suggested without backlash. Imagine if studies indicated that low testosterone limited or in some way hindered another desirable human capability. People have been fired for it and reputations ruined. Suggesting men are emotionally stunted. Oh that's fine.
- rch 7y agoThey should try correlating hormone ratios with a total lack of interest in either outcome.
- skizm 7y agoI mean, you should be able to claim either if you have evidence. We should be looking for truth, not virtue signalling by withholding findings because it might hurt some people's feelings.
- ping_pong 7y agoJames Damore referenced scientific papers in his post and his intent got twisted, he got vilified and subsequently fired by Google. He never said women were unfit for engineering or women weren't as smart as men, he said that Google should change the nature of engineering such that the career is more appealing to a higher percentage of females. Do you really want to be the one that endures an unfair attack and have your intent twisted and ruin your career, just to try to prove a point? You would be a stronger person than me, I would just pass at this point and move on.
- toop43 7y agoThat's a pipe dream in 2019.
- belorn 7y agoParent comment could have been written in better tone but the underlying aspect holds some very real historical truth. In the past popular opinion and scientist agreed that estrogen caused emotional instability, and it was infamously used as an argument against the suffrage movement. Now days we know that those studies in the past was severely flawed and that the historical research was shaped by culture rather than rigorous science and facts. An observed fact and problem with behavior science is that they tend to align based on the culture of where the research is taking place. In Germany around 1940 you got very distinct results in behavior science compared to modern views. Behavior research made during the cold war looks very different depending which side of the Berlin wall it came from, even when accounting for sample size and scientific methods. There are theories that tries to explain this, like for example that researchers tend to focus narrowly on questions that feel relevant in their personal culture, and then drawing larger conclusions.
- perardi 7y agoDoes anyone have access to the paper, and not just the abstract? I'm curious to see what the measured testosterone levels in the subjects' blood ended up being. Did they push their testosterone levels to the high end of "natural", something like 700 ng/dL, or did they push them into supra-physiological bodybuilder levels? (I'd love to see a study about the cognitive effects of harder anabolic steroids, but somehow I doubt you could get an institutional review board to sanction a double-blind experiment using trenbolone.)
- username90 7y agoYou can read the preprint here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/516344v3.full https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/516344v3.full
- deepnotderp 7y agoWhat was the timescale and number of administrations? Is it possible that repeated exposure to elevated testosterone over a long time period is the cause? Could studies be done on steroid users?
- moosey 7y agoWhat I'm more interested in seeing is whether or not being in a dominant group in society reduces empathy. Historically, we might have looked at the lack of empathy of specific groups and made assumptions about the group in general, but perhaps it simply has to do with whether or not that group finds itself dominant in society whether it be economically, politically, or socially. All of these groups in Western societies have been, and often still are, dominated by men. Looking at how things are changing, with women slowly gaining power in the workplace, I'm finding a lot of men are behaving differently than I remember 30 years ago. Whether or not this is due to gaining empathy, or due to fear of punitive measures, I don't know, but for me personally I feel it is the former.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- humanrebar 7y ago> All of these groups in Western societies have been, and often still are, dominated by men. But not by all men. If all of the top 1% are men, for instance, there are still 49% of men out there that are both make and not elite. It's possible you are just observing different men now. Or observing men differently.
- moosey 7y agoI agree. I'm not denying this. This is exactly why it should be called dominance and not privilege. And it does have real impacts on both groups.
- djsumdog 7y agoHow do you accurately measure empathy though? I'm not sure I agree with the methods they used in this study.
- PeterStuer 7y agoOr maybe societies are dominated by overambitious sociopaths, regardless of their gender? I feel we are long past the 'no true Scotsman' defense of woman in public office on average just exhibiting the same ruthless self-interest as the men they replaced.
- thrwway3947 7y agoMany people online report positive effects from taking testosterone replacement therapy boosting their T level to the upper end of the natural range. I'm curious if this is worth doing (for no particular reason), as a sort of steroid use. Apparently it can have slight balding effect but is worth it. Has anyone here tried it, just for kicks? Could you list the effects on you? I am curious how it would effect the HN demographic (which I'm part of.)
- AILove 7y agoFirst world problems.
- 8bitsrule 7y agoI'm reminded of a science fiction story I read long ago. A group of space explorers discovers an enormous metallic sphere. They open a port in its side and climb down a ladder. They discover that the whole of the interior is a vast machine, far beyond their capacity to understand. The last man out before the port is closed accidentally drops a wrench. They listen to it clatter down beyond earshot. "Science is one thing, wisdom is another. Science is an edged tool, with which men play like children, and cut their own fingers." — Sir Arthur Eddington
- JetBen 7y agoOk cool, so I'm allowed to be a man again? Or is that still unacceptable according to PC rules?
- dang 7y agoPlease be the kind of man who doesn't do this here.
- Madmallard 7y agoPetersonian here: Testosterone known to raise competitiveness. Perhaps those with higher testosterone that are higher up in the dominance hierarchy just seem like they lack empathy because they have less males to seek approval from.
- BurningFrog 7y agoAnother victim in the "replication crisis" bloodbath for psychology. Personally, I'm probably going to wait 5 years before I believe any psychology science claim. Especially if it confirms something I already believe in :)
- mensetmanusman 7y agoYes, this has been a disaster that will be written about in the history books. I hope they take down all the TED talks about these papers that have been debunked. In hindsight, it is kind of funny in a dark-humor way.
- username90 7y agoTestosterone increases blood flow, it could be that the participants taking it got more alert meaning better scores but that testosterone also worsens results for similar alertness levels.
- Jolter 7y agoThat's just not what the study studied. You can speculate but there is no evidence for that hypothesis in this paper.
- username90 7y agoI didn't say that this study proved it, I just meant that effects like that could cause the non-linear results reported and mess with studies.
- collyw 7y agoWhat is the rate of failure for "harder" sciences, does anyone know? In saying that I think there will be a self correcting mechanism in more physically based science. If something can be replicated it can be built upon and new discoveries made. If something can't be replicated it will end up being forgotten about. Also I do think that science needs a way of reporting failed studies and failed replication. At the moment all the glory and funding go to studies that produce positive results. Producing a failed result is still valid science and should be doccumented.
- glaugh 7y agoMost of the effects of administering testosterone (at least to men with clinically low levels) take weeks or months to appear. For example, interest in sex takes 3+ weeks to increase. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/ And much of the impact of testosterone happens in utero (Young boys and girls have similar levels; behavioral differences are driven by in utero exposure.) This study seems to test a very narrow area where testosterone could influence empathy
- Jolter 7y agoSo did the previous studies of testosterone exposure, from what I've understood. So, this study still serves perfectly well to debunk them.
- vanderZwan 7y agoYou indirectly answered a question I had about what this means for the nature/nurture debate, thank you.
- bananamerica 7y agoSo now there’s real proof that my limp dick did not turn me into an asshole.
- AndrewDucker 7y ago"the 2011 study included women and the current one included men" So, testosterone application doesn't instantly affect cognitive empathy in men. But might still do in women.
- username90 7y agoWe already had a large study five years ago (n = 453) showing that testosterone didn't have a significant effect on cognitive empathy (RMET). However it found significant effects of testosterone on trait empathy, both positive and negative depending on cortisol levels. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs40750-014-0017-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs40750-014-0017-... Not sure why it wasn't cited in this paper.
- learnstats2 7y ago> “Of course, the primary suspect when we have something that is sharply differentiated by sex is testosterone,” says Gideon Nave, an assistant professor of marketing in Penn’s Wharton School. Is this a spoof article? Why would a professor of marketing at Wharton be talking on this point? "Of course", this is a nonsense thing to say. Maybe it needed a marketing expert to get funding for this.
- tastroder 7y ago> Is this a spoof article? Why would a professor of marketing at Wharton be talking on this point? Because he's a co-author of the paper, people in research collaborate, and his publication list doesn't make this topic seem off in any way? Literally clicking on the first instance of the name of the person you're complaining about gives you enough information to make this comment unnecessary.
- Golfkid2Gadfly 7y agoAka "science has found no official support for the 'ALL MEN ARE PIGS!' tagline dating back to circa 1996." I "love" (/s) that science now has to justify that we're not a subhuman sub-species. I also "love" (slash fucking S obviously) that this article is guaranteed "controversial".
- nestlequ1k 7y agoI'm really glad this stuff is being researched, male stereotypes like that have never held true in my experience.