5 ms·

I met many engineers here, in Germany, from Italy. There are a lot of them, young and educated. I heard their stories why they left. * Salaries and status of s

I met many engineers here, in Germany, from Italy. There are a lot of them, young and educated. I heard their stories why they left. * Salaries and status of software engineers are low, you'd want to switch to management asap, * There are very few interesting tech companies, * Corruption and bureaucracy doesn't help with innovation and starting your own businesses.

oriettaxx 7y ago
Yes, Italians abroad can all sure confirm, but add: * Social security/pension: if you work on IT in Italy, and have any degree but an Engineer one, you must pay 26% (and is planned to rise to 33%!) of your income to a pension public fund called "Gestione Separata": add to this your income tax and see how you say goodbye more then 50% of your money. That pension fund is a total robbery since it is well known not to be sustainable, so just a miserable pension will come just from that fund. Even the director of the national pension institute (to which the fund belongs) once stated in the press: "I don't even understand why all subscribers to the fund 'Gestione Separata' are not protesting on the street!" (btw: subscribers are millions!). Even more: * the fund does not give you anything if you are sick: are you sick? you have to work and pay your pension (no concession!): yes, seriously! * until 2 years ago that fund did not even give a woman any contribution at all for maternity (!) Angry with their embarrassing political scenery, many Italians give up and, as they have been doing for centuries, go abroad: "voting with their own feet" sources: * https://www.informazionefiscale.it/gestione-separata-INPS-aliquote-contributive-2019-minimale-massimale https://www.informazionefiscale.it/gestione-separata-INPS-al... * https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=ZrI_6jPOiWEC&pg=PA431&lpg=PA431&dq=direttore+inps+come+fanno+gli+iscritti+alla+gestione+separata+a+non+andare+in+piazza+a+protestare&source=bl&ots=4vs5TwvOOQ&sig=ACfU3U1Qw2BEZnkaSosuABba9tCyWZ2pGA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpx5Og2frkAhXRyKQKHUR8DjUQ6AEwCHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=direttore%20inps%20come%20fanno%20gli%20iscritti%20alla%20gestione%20separata%20a%20non%20andare%20in%20piazza%20a%20protestare&f=false https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=ZrI_6jPOiWEC&pg=PA431&l...
- ajsnigrutin 7y ago
  This (the amount of taxes, and shitty predictions for the failure of this system) is true for most european countries (although you get more and better stuff in some countries). When the system collapses in one country, the others will go down fast, and we'll have a huge problem then.
  - oriettaxx 7y ago
    must say Tax in Italy are high, but that is not really the issue: as I wrote, if you are on that fund you just waste 27% or your income. The problem with taxes maybe is just: * you never really know how much you have to pay: you cannot handle it by yourself (you need an private adviser)
    - ajsnigrutin 7y ago
      Yes, and in slovenia it's 25%, and in other countries its at mostly the same level. Then theres's health insurance (12.92% in slovenia). Only after that you get income taxes. And above that you get VAT (22% here) for your services. So basically, you charge your customers ~5k, and get ~2k of net payout (the rest goes to the government) ... and that's without any actual business expenses. Denmark has even higher taxes, but the country still works better than italy. Calculating taxes is pretty easy in most countries, especially if you have to do it yourself (eg. independent contractors, etc.). The only problem here is, that once one country fails (eg. they stop paying out pensions), all the other ones will go into full panic mode, and the shit will hit the fan.
      - oriettaxx 7y ago
        so in Slovenia the pension contributions are 25% + you have to add health insurance 13%?, plus income? in the UK the above amount to almost nothig: but then, of course you need your own pension scheme and health insurance. yes, it is a lot, but the point here is not just the amount, but what you get: with the Italian "Gestione Separata" pension fund you just waste your money (and is 27% of your income !).
        7y ago
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Well, taxes a certainly not a reason to go to Germany. We also have our own pyramid scheme pension system. To escape that you probably would have to go to north america. Advantages and disadvantages of course, but if you have a good education and nobody to care for, I can't see why you shouldn't go abroad.
  - playing_colours 7y ago
    Yeah, to US or to Switzerland - the top destination if you want to stay in German-speaking area.
    - tannhaeuser 7y ago
      Well Switzerland has also the French-speaking parts and the super-nice Italian-speaking area around Lugano; I guess it's a rather expensive place though.
  - oriettaxx 7y ago
    no, wait, I did not mean that Italians wants to skip pension contributions, I said that that specific fund ("Gestione Separata") is a scam. In the UK the amount of money that you have to pay for your pension is almost nothing (of course you have nothing in exchange, as a pension, but you are free to choose your own pensione scheme, mainly private) So, once again: if an Italian working on IT moves to the UK, he will save 27% of his income, and (most of all) does not feel to be abused. :)
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      They probably won't save too much, as the final tax is around ~50% as well in the UK. Maybe they will save a bit, but not 27%
      - ukoki 7y ago
        Take home pay on a £100,000 income (top-end London senior dev salary) is £66,532, so a 33.5% tax rate. This includes income tax and national insurance (healthcare and basic state pension) but not optional private pension contributions. For a £50k salary you are looking at 25% total tax rate. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/ https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/
- non-entity 7y ago
  > and have any degree but an Engineer one, you must pay 26% Why the degree constraint?
  - theK 7y ago
    Same thing exists in Greece and many other countries. In the past specific parts of science would set up their own “welfare” systems. So you’ve got countries with retirement or health funds dedicated to specific professional groups like MDs, engineers or academics.
  - jaclaz 7y ago
    >Why the degree constraint? There are some professions (among which Engineers and Architects) that have a separate (let's call them "guilds") pension and assistance fund, that is of a "private" nature and - generally speaking - better managed than public ones. Traditionally the Engineers contributions (coming mainly from civil and mechanical engineers) were: 1)relatively high (since they had relatively high income) even if the percentage on income is lower (currently it is - I believe - 14.5%) 2)going on for a very long time, an engineer or architect used to work since the degree until well into their 70's or over 3) they had the (unfortunate but good for the fund) habit of dying shortly after retirement (or before retirement) In recent years things changed: 1) the work (and thus the income and the contribution to the fund) has been more intermittent than before 2) many people are not (unlike before) entirely or mainly freelance, and when you are employed by a firm you pay a minimal annual fee to the guild, but the large part of pension/retirement funds go to the mentioned "Gestione Separata" 3) generally speaking contributions start later and people retir earlier (and live longer), and overall there was a flattening (to the bottom) in either rates of pay or amount of work, so income overall has lowered whilst expenditures have increased The net effect is that until a few years ago the (medical) assistance was if not excellent very, very good and the retirement/pension monthly wage was relatively high, whilst in recent years everything has toned down a lot.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
> Salaries and status of software engineers are low, you'd want to switch to management asap I wish we'd stop with these memes about how perfect Germany's work culture is. Unless you work in a tech bubble or as a costly contractor, that statement is true for most of Europe, including Germany. In my time working in wealthy southern Germany's top engineering companies, most of my colleagues were immigrants, usually from poorer countries while the managers were German without exception. German culture values management (even poor quality one) way more as developers and engineers are seen as a plentiful resource that can easily be replaced, imported or outsourced if needed. On a stint working for one of the TOP 3 German car makers I witnessed how they had to fire 3 sub par project managers before they could find a competent one, even thoug all the previous ones had impressive resumes. In Germany you're not allowed to write negative things about the employee in a reference letter so all incompetent managers who had the luck to work at prestigious companies jump ship easily for big money to other prestigious organization once the shit hits the fan and no one's the wiser.
- ciguy 7y ago
  Having lived in Germany and Italy, I can confidently say that while German bureaucracy has room for improvement, it's miles ahead of anything Italy has to offer. Italian bureaucracy is so hopelessly inefficient, corrupt and useless that even third world countries are better for doing business.
- smcl 7y ago
  Re the reference letter - I thought that this law caused a shift in how people interpreted the content. So instead of "was incompetent and lazy" you'd put "met expectations" - sort of damning the candidate with faint praise
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Yes, but you're allowed to reject the reference letter you received if you do not like it and ask for a better one. Otherwise your ex employer might get a call from your lawyers. Reference letters have no value anymore other than proving you worked somewhere. You can leetcode an engineer to weed out the fakers but you can't leetmanage a manager so the bad ones slip in much easier.
collyw 7y ago
True, but Barcelona has been improving the last few years.

oriettaxx 7y ago

Yes, Italians abroad can all sure confirm, but add: * Social security/pension: if you work on IT in Italy, and have any degree but an Engineer one, you must pay 26% (and is planned to rise to 33%!) of your income to a pension public fund called "Gestione Separata": add to this your income tax and see how you say goodbye more then 50% of your money. That pension fund is a total robbery since it is well known not to be sustainable, so just a miserable pension will come just from that fund. Even the director of the national pension institute (to which the fund belongs) once stated in the press: "I don't even understand why all subscribers to the fund 'Gestione Separata' are not protesting on the street!" (btw: subscribers are millions!). Even more: * the fund does not give you anything if you are sick: are you sick? you have to work and pay your pension (no concession!): yes, seriously! * until 2 years ago that fund did not even give a woman any contribution at all for maternity (!) Angry with their embarrassing political scenery, many Italians give up and, as they have been doing for centuries, go abroad: "voting with their own feet" sources: * https://www.informazionefiscale.it/gestione-separata-INPS-aliquote-contributive-2019-minimale-massimale https://www.informazionefiscale.it/gestione-separata-INPS-al... * https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=ZrI_6jPOiWEC&pg=PA431&lpg=PA431&dq=direttore+inps+come+fanno+gli+iscritti+alla+gestione+separata+a+non+andare+in+piazza+a+protestare&source=bl&ots=4vs5TwvOOQ&sig=ACfU3U1Qw2BEZnkaSosuABba9tCyWZ2pGA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpx5Og2frkAhXRyKQKHUR8DjUQ6AEwCHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=direttore%20inps%20come%20fanno%20gli%20iscritti%20alla%20gestione%20separata%20a%20non%20andare%20in%20piazza%20a%20protestare&f=false https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=ZrI_6jPOiWEC&pg=PA431&l...

ajsnigrutin 7y ago
This (the amount of taxes, and shitty predictions for the failure of this system) is true for most european countries (although you get more and better stuff in some countries). When the system collapses in one country, the others will go down fast, and we'll have a huge problem then.
- oriettaxx 7y ago
  must say Tax in Italy are high, but that is not really the issue: as I wrote, if you are on that fund you just waste 27% or your income. The problem with taxes maybe is just: * you never really know how much you have to pay: you cannot handle it by yourself (you need an private adviser)
  - ajsnigrutin 7y ago
    Yes, and in slovenia it's 25%, and in other countries its at mostly the same level. Then theres's health insurance (12.92% in slovenia). Only after that you get income taxes. And above that you get VAT (22% here) for your services. So basically, you charge your customers ~5k, and get ~2k of net payout (the rest goes to the government) ... and that's without any actual business expenses. Denmark has even higher taxes, but the country still works better than italy. Calculating taxes is pretty easy in most countries, especially if you have to do it yourself (eg. independent contractors, etc.). The only problem here is, that once one country fails (eg. they stop paying out pensions), all the other ones will go into full panic mode, and the shit will hit the fan.
    - oriettaxx 7y ago
      so in Slovenia the pension contributions are 25% + you have to add health insurance 13%?, plus income? in the UK the above amount to almost nothig: but then, of course you need your own pension scheme and health insurance. yes, it is a lot, but the point here is not just the amount, but what you get: with the Italian "Gestione Separata" pension fund you just waste your money (and is 27% of your income !).
      - 7y ago
raxxorrax 7y ago
Well, taxes a certainly not a reason to go to Germany. We also have our own pyramid scheme pension system. To escape that you probably would have to go to north america. Advantages and disadvantages of course, but if you have a good education and nobody to care for, I can't see why you shouldn't go abroad.
- playing_colours 7y ago
  Yeah, to US or to Switzerland - the top destination if you want to stay in German-speaking area.
  - tannhaeuser 7y ago
    Well Switzerland has also the French-speaking parts and the super-nice Italian-speaking area around Lugano; I guess it's a rather expensive place though.
- oriettaxx 7y ago
  no, wait, I did not mean that Italians wants to skip pension contributions, I said that that specific fund ("Gestione Separata") is a scam. In the UK the amount of money that you have to pay for your pension is almost nothing (of course you have nothing in exchange, as a pension, but you are free to choose your own pensione scheme, mainly private) So, once again: if an Italian working on IT moves to the UK, he will save 27% of his income, and (most of all) does not feel to be abused. :)
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    They probably won't save too much, as the final tax is around ~50% as well in the UK. Maybe they will save a bit, but not 27%
    - ukoki 7y ago
      Take home pay on a £100,000 income (top-end London senior dev salary) is £66,532, so a 33.5% tax rate. This includes income tax and national insurance (healthcare and basic state pension) but not optional private pension contributions. For a £50k salary you are looking at 25% total tax rate. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/ https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/
non-entity 7y ago
> and have any degree but an Engineer one, you must pay 26% Why the degree constraint?
- theK 7y ago
  Same thing exists in Greece and many other countries. In the past specific parts of science would set up their own “welfare” systems. So you’ve got countries with retirement or health funds dedicated to specific professional groups like MDs, engineers or academics.
- jaclaz 7y ago
  >Why the degree constraint? There are some professions (among which Engineers and Architects) that have a separate (let's call them "guilds") pension and assistance fund, that is of a "private" nature and - generally speaking - better managed than public ones. Traditionally the Engineers contributions (coming mainly from civil and mechanical engineers) were: 1)relatively high (since they had relatively high income) even if the percentage on income is lower (currently it is - I believe - 14.5%) 2)going on for a very long time, an engineer or architect used to work since the degree until well into their 70's or over 3) they had the (unfortunate but good for the fund) habit of dying shortly after retirement (or before retirement) In recent years things changed: 1) the work (and thus the income and the contribution to the fund) has been more intermittent than before 2) many people are not (unlike before) entirely or mainly freelance, and when you are employed by a firm you pay a minimal annual fee to the guild, but the large part of pension/retirement funds go to the mentioned "Gestione Separata" 3) generally speaking contributions start later and people retir earlier (and live longer), and overall there was a flattening (to the bottom) in either rates of pay or amount of work, so income overall has lowered whilst expenditures have increased The net effect is that until a few years ago the (medical) assistance was if not excellent very, very good and the retirement/pension monthly wage was relatively high, whilst in recent years everything has toned down a lot.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

> Salaries and status of software engineers are low, you'd want to switch to management asap I wish we'd stop with these memes about how perfect Germany's work culture is. Unless you work in a tech bubble or as a costly contractor, that statement is true for most of Europe, including Germany. In my time working in wealthy southern Germany's top engineering companies, most of my colleagues were immigrants, usually from poorer countries while the managers were German without exception. German culture values management (even poor quality one) way more as developers and engineers are seen as a plentiful resource that can easily be replaced, imported or outsourced if needed. On a stint working for one of the TOP 3 German car makers I witnessed how they had to fire 3 sub par project managers before they could find a competent one, even thoug all the previous ones had impressive resumes. In Germany you're not allowed to write negative things about the employee in a reference letter so all incompetent managers who had the luck to work at prestigious companies jump ship easily for big money to other prestigious organization once the shit hits the fan and no one's the wiser.

ciguy 7y ago
Having lived in Germany and Italy, I can confidently say that while German bureaucracy has room for improvement, it's miles ahead of anything Italy has to offer. Italian bureaucracy is so hopelessly inefficient, corrupt and useless that even third world countries are better for doing business.
smcl 7y ago
Re the reference letter - I thought that this law caused a shift in how people interpreted the content. So instead of "was incompetent and lazy" you'd put "met expectations" - sort of damning the candidate with faint praise
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Yes, but you're allowed to reject the reference letter you received if you do not like it and ask for a better one. Otherwise your ex employer might get a call from your lawyers. Reference letters have no value anymore other than proving you worked somewhere. You can leetcode an engineer to weed out the fakers but you can't leetmanage a manager so the bad ones slip in much easier.

collyw 7y ago

True, but Barcelona has been improving the last few years.