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I can understand such disdain. I am a software engineer currently working in a DevOps team (yes, team, you’ve heard it right). I’d say that 90% of DevOps engine

I can understand such disdain. I am a software engineer currently working in a DevOps team (yes, team, you’ve heard it right). I’d say that 90% of DevOps engineers I’ve met don’t even know what a linked list is, and they themselves talk with disdain about developers. So much for DevOps philosophy.

Aeolun 7y ago
I wouldn’t mind so much if they at least knew what terraform was.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  if they at least knew what terraform was Any real, experienced DevOps engineer will reply “a steaming pile of shit”.
  - watermelon0 7y ago
    Sure, it's got its problems, but please show me a better alternative.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      On AWS, Boto. On Azure, DSC (Powershell) and ARM templates. You will need to maintain separate TF codebases for each one anyway, but with the native solutions you get easy access to all features of the platform and don't have to spend most of your time jumping through stupid hoops to try and pretend that one tool can do everything. No-one would write code worrying if it was valid in both Java and C# but that is the same level as what TF claims to do. It's complete shit, ditch it and you will be 10x happier, I guarantee it.
      - Aeolun 7y ago
        Sounds to me like using a single tool instead of a bunch of separate ones with different functionality is a win to me, but we are each entitled to our opinions. Boto doesn’t seem comparable to terraform at all, unless you enjoy building state management yourself. Terraform has been better than anything else I’ve tried so far.
root_axis 7y ago
They are worthy of disdain because they never took a CS class?
- TurboHaskal 7y ago
  No one is worthy of disdain due to unfamiliarity. I have explained why a software engineer that cares about the infrastructure might feel disdain after reading about and agreeing to the DevOps philosophy and switches to a DevOps role only to find out that the vast majority of new teammates lack comprehension of the most basic software engineering principles and don’t find value in them. It is incredibly frustrating. Now, it is also true that most developers are just content with clicking around in their Jetbrains IDE without bothering about resources or even knowing what a file descriptor or system call is. Those so called senior Java engineers that I had to explain the basics of garbage collection to them. Those also make operations harder than it should be. But that’s another story. We’re taking about the dissonance between what gets advertised as DevOps and what truly is, which seems to be the norm in our industry and is leaving a significantly amount of people unhappy and dissatisfied.
eropple 7y ago
I’m a developer who runs an infrastructure team. Have for years. And most developers I know don’t know why you’d log in JSON unless I was the one to explain it to them (patiently, while remembering the times they acted frustrated at my guys for not doing all the magic and just some). So much for DevOps philosophy, indeed.

Aeolun 7y ago

I wouldn’t mind so much if they at least knew what terraform was.

goatinaboat 7y ago
if they at least knew what terraform was Any real, experienced DevOps engineer will reply “a steaming pile of shit”.
- watermelon0 7y ago
  Sure, it's got its problems, but please show me a better alternative.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    On AWS, Boto. On Azure, DSC (Powershell) and ARM templates. You will need to maintain separate TF codebases for each one anyway, but with the native solutions you get easy access to all features of the platform and don't have to spend most of your time jumping through stupid hoops to try and pretend that one tool can do everything. No-one would write code worrying if it was valid in both Java and C# but that is the same level as what TF claims to do. It's complete shit, ditch it and you will be 10x happier, I guarantee it.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      Sounds to me like using a single tool instead of a bunch of separate ones with different functionality is a win to me, but we are each entitled to our opinions. Boto doesn’t seem comparable to terraform at all, unless you enjoy building state management yourself. Terraform has been better than anything else I’ve tried so far.

root_axis 7y ago

They are worthy of disdain because they never took a CS class?

TurboHaskal 7y ago
No one is worthy of disdain due to unfamiliarity. I have explained why a software engineer that cares about the infrastructure might feel disdain after reading about and agreeing to the DevOps philosophy and switches to a DevOps role only to find out that the vast majority of new teammates lack comprehension of the most basic software engineering principles and don’t find value in them. It is incredibly frustrating. Now, it is also true that most developers are just content with clicking around in their Jetbrains IDE without bothering about resources or even knowing what a file descriptor or system call is. Those so called senior Java engineers that I had to explain the basics of garbage collection to them. Those also make operations harder than it should be. But that’s another story. We’re taking about the dissonance between what gets advertised as DevOps and what truly is, which seems to be the norm in our industry and is leaving a significantly amount of people unhappy and dissatisfied.

eropple 7y ago

I’m a developer who runs an infrastructure team. Have for years. And most developers I know don’t know why you’d log in JSON unless I was the one to explain it to them (patiently, while remembering the times they acted frustrated at my guys for not doing all the magic and just some). So much for DevOps philosophy, indeed.