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* "Security Check" - Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. * Cartoons - Authoritarianism was wrapped up and packaged with cute police cartoons

by 29_29 7y ago

* "Security Check" - Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. * Cartoons - Authoritarianism was wrapped up and packaged with cute police cartoons https://www.google.com/search?q=china+police+cartoon&sxsrf=ACYBGNSbLunsLM5fjhrJ-7tZkm4IKdkOAQ:1569684665543&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjap5iH6_PkAhVJnKwKHcmqA1sQ_AUIEigB&biw=1224&bih=715 https://www.google.com/search?q=china+police+cartoon&sxsrf=A... * The Red Armbands - Communist party volunteers, in the subway, and in the community keeping watch https://bitterwinter.org/red-armbands-are-watching-you/ https://bitterwinter.org/red-armbands-are-watching-you/ * Passport check at sensitive locations and to buy a train ticket. To get into Tiananmen Square I needed a passport, I was denied entry to my train and separated from my group because the passport number didn't match my ticket * Police everywhere. Literally everywhere * I saw a a mosque surrounded by security cameras. They didn't even hide its surveillance. * I was watched everywhere, except the great wall - but I was told cameras are being constructed there too. The feeling I had was like being in the forest of District 12 of the Hunger Games, I felt free there. * Signs in the Hotel warn you that you DO NOT have a right to privacy, and you must register your passport or state ID

lotsofpulp 7y ago
> * Signs in the Hotel warn you that you DO NOT have a right to privacy, and you must register your passport or state ID This applies in the US too in most cities I’ve done business in. Some hotels don’t enforce the ordinances, but the hotel is supposed verify who is staying at the hotel, along with license plate numbers of vehicles the guest has. Also, I wouldn’t want to stay in a hotel that doesn’t check rooms periodically (at least once per week), as that is a recipe for meth cooking and hoarders bringing pests into the building and numerous other problems.
- adventured 7y ago
  > This applies in the US too in most cities I’ve done business in. That they note that you don't have a right to privacy is the only odd part. It's fairly common around the world to have to present your passport / passport details at hotels for their records. It's definitely not strange that China's hotels would require that.
  - 29_29 7y ago
    Do the police show up if you don’t register in Other countries they do in China.
    - adventured 7y ago
      > Do the police show up if you don’t register in the United States? I think that response is moving the goalpost. I noted that it's common throughout the world that hotels often require passport details. Your response to that is to change the issue in question to the consequences of non-compliance and away from what you initially presented as the problem ("you must register your passport or state ID").
      - 29_29 7y ago
        Goalpost? What is your goal? I was sharing my personal experience in traveling to China - being in a society with no notion of Human Rights, because someone asked. Is your goal to argue? I don't get it.
        coldtea 7y ago
        >Goalpost? What is your goal? His goal is to point out that you said "in China they tell you you need to register at hotels", and when he answered that that's the case in the US and other countries too, you expanded your question to "Does the police show up if you don’t register in Other countries they do in China". That's normally called "moving the goalposts". Now you're implying that they have some further motive, or just "want to agree". Well, they wanted to point a flaw in your original argument (that implied it's somehow unique to China to have you register at hotels). Are they allowed to?
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    I’ve seen it in the fine print reserving the right to enter hotel room at any time. Police don’t need warrants for hotel rooms either.
    - 7y ago
- greedo 7y ago
  Hotels are not "supposed" to document license plates of guest vehicles in the US. No such law or ordinance requires this. If a hotel is doing that, it's for when you're parking on hotel property; most hotels charge for parking, or limit it to patrons. Most hotels don't check IDs when you check in, all they care about is having a credit card so they can charge you for "incidentals" like the aforementioned parking.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Yes, I thought it would be obvious that I'm referring to hotel guests having to disclose the license plate of the vehicle on the hotel property. And IDs are required at every hotel and it's stated on the websites of all the big chains. Either way, I've never seen a town's laws not require innkeepers to know who they're housing, which means checking IDs. A quick google search shows many town ordinances such as this one: http://carync.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=1037&MediaPosition=1589.933&ID=1232&CssClass= http://carync.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&... >Guest register. Every innkeeper shall at all times keep and maintain on the premises of hotel a guest register in which shall be inscribed the name and home address of each guest and shall contain such guest's vehicle description and license plate state and number.
    - greedo 7y ago
      Your own link shows that such a requirement is at odds with the Constitution: "On June 22, 2015, the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in City of Los Angeles v. Patel that a Los Angeles ordinance requiring hoteliers to keep and maintain guest registries and to make them available to the police upon request violated the hoteliers Fourth Amendment rights. "
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Yes, but the revised ordinance still requires a record of the information to exist. The crosses out portion is the one that gave any law enforcement the right to see it any time, but 9 times out of 10, a hotel is not going to refuse a police department’s request if they ask about someone staying at the hotel. Hotels need to be on the good side of the police.
tasogare 7y ago
Most of things you listed are done in a lot of countries. 1 & 5 are done in countries like US or France after terror attacks. China also have to deal with the islamic menace, so it's not surprising they implement 6. Passeport registration in hotels is probably done in most country of the world (at least all I visited). Cute police character is something totally normal in Asia (here is a Japanese example http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/fukei/foreign/kansiki/shomei.html http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/fukei/foreign/kansiki/shomei.html). Camera are everywhere in every big city. Finally, the only (scary) things really specific to China you list are the milice and the fact they clearly told you have no privacy right.
- 29_29 7y ago
  Sorry I am a non sophisticated peasant that likes Human Rights. I'll go back to my internet hole.
- snupples 7y ago
  Except in Japan it really is just a cute cartoon. There is very little actual police presence and they rarely carry firearms or project a forceful posture.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    Context really matters though.
mach5 7y ago
* "Security Check" https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/546564142.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1 https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/546564142.jpg?... * Cartoons - https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91dnIHIQXfL._SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91dnIHIQXfL... * The Red Armbands - https://www.patriotguard.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pgr_formation.jpg https://www.patriotguard.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pgr_... * Passport check - https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-patrols-100-mile-zone-probably-you-mapped/558275/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-p... * Police everywhere. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8G7XsjSzRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8G7XsjSzRo * I saw a a mosque surrounded by security cameras. https://www.aclu.org/other/factsheet-nypd-muslim-surveillance-program https://www.aclu.org/other/factsheet-nypd-muslim-surveillanc... * I was watched everywhere - i could go on and on... PRISM, security cameras everywhere, Ring doorbell cams being given to cops, stingray, etc etc etc etc etc * Signs in the Hotel warn you that you DO NOT have a right to privacy, and you must register your passport or state ID - Same in the US at least China is open about it, and has tons of socialist policies so people don't die from poverty.
- 29_29 7y ago
  Get a life. This is bullshit. My bet is you've never been out of the country. There is no equivalency between a Democracy and China's system. You found an image for each idea. What I described was a society without Human Rights.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    I bet they'd also equate China's genocide of minority ethnicities to the detention of people who sneak into the USA. But that Paw Patrol image made my eyes roll so hard I could see my own brain.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN.
whoevercares 7y ago
Ah the first four things are pretty amusing to native Chineses, but I’d say for locals they probably never thought it’s related to any sort of oppression or censorship (they think the cartoon was cute and btw Chineses love polices around don’t ask why...). Upper class Chineses are more aware of surveillance and they have some countermeasures but most people don’t really care and even support it. Yes there were attacks before so many places in Beijing has absurd security control. There’s definitely a privacy issue there but it’s close to impossible to raise the awareness of Chineses unless something drastic happens. Edit: Perhaps I have a low bar of human right issues but those you described doesn’t seem like red flag to me
ordinaryradical 7y ago
I have noticed that whenever one brings up concrete examples of Chinese state surveillance, oppression, or bad behavior, people come out of the woodwork with examples of how it is “no different” than the other western countries. There seems to be a pattern of attempting false equivalence on every subject that paints China in a bad light. Is that because the West is acutely self-critical? Or is there something else going on here?
- merpnderp 7y ago
  This is likely because people argue false equivalence in just about everything in there lives.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Well, like most of what he's saying also applies to lots of places I felt safe and free in. Like Japan has police (non-threatening) everywhere, requires you to carry your passport with you, has cameras everywhere and yet I felt safe and free and generally anxiety free there. I was taking photos with a long lens of the subway trains! In the UK, you'd be questioned for that. In the US, I don't know. Could go any way. Egypt under Hosni Mubarak near the end was notably different. There'd be heavily armed soldiers everywhere in all black. Unexplainable trucks of soldiers going everywhere. Locals wouldn't talk about certain places. I haven't been to China myself but my parents have and we've all been to Egypt and their impression was that the big cities were pretty much like a big European city or something like New York. If it gives you any faith that my opinion isn't some Chinabot, I still remember The Economist's Red Moon Rising issue as frightening. I just think they're probably very good at keeping the authoritarianism inconspicuous and therefore more terrifying. I don't deny your experience but this could be one of those Rashomon like situations where we all look at the same thing and come away with a different picture. And if it wasn't actually in your face then it'll discredit any argument about China's authoritarianism when people go there and see a prosperous happy people instead.
yorwba 7y ago
> * "Security Check" - Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. Those were installed for the Olympics in 2008, I believe, when they feared terrorist attacks with foreign victims tarnishing their image. Nowadays they're still manned, but more security theater. I got all kinds of questionable stuff through the scanner, including an induction stove and a kitchen knife. No one ever bothered to take a closer look. > * Cartoons - Authoritarianism was wrapped up and packaged with cute police cartoons Police ≠ Authoritarianism. Most Chinese police officers are just doing completely ordinary police work. > * Police everywhere. Literally everywhere Sounds like you literally never left the touristy areas. China has fewer law enforcement personnel per inhabitant than most Western countries and heavy presence is limited to only a few important spots, like tourist attractions. > * I saw a a mosque surrounded by security cameras. They didn't even hide its surveillance. I've never seen a mosque without security cameras in Western Europe either. Mosques are prime targets for all kinds of hate crimes, so they're obviously going to use surveillance to protect themselves. > * I was watched everywhere, except the great wall - but I was told cameras are being constructed there too. The feeling I had was like being in the forest of District 12 of the Hunger Games, I felt free there. Next time you're in China, try taking the subway to somewhere out in the periphery and then just walk in a random direction for an hour or so. You're going to see a China that is much less surveilled, without police; a China that is dirtier, poorer and in a way more honest than what you see if you just tick off the famous tourist spots. You'll still be watched, of course; not by cameras, but by ordinary Chinese citizens who don't get to see a foreigner everyday.
- 29_29 7y ago
  I may be more sensitive to surveillance than others. I work in Tech, and I was fascinated by the sheer number of sheer number of Hikvision facial recognition cameras I saw. Here is a picture of one set of cameras around the mosque, which did not seem normal to us. My cousin pointed it out and we laughed at the blatant violation of privacy we saw - saying they don't even hide the fact they are watching https://imgur.com/a/8WbFxBi https://imgur.com/a/8WbFxBi and I'm not sure its fair to say I stayed in tourist areas, I was an hour and a half outside of town, and we ventured into poor areas of SH.
  - 7y ago
namelosw 7y ago
> Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. Why not? A Subway casualty could be much more serious than a single plane. It's thousands vs hundreds. > They didn't even hide its surveillance. They shouldn't, right?

by 29_29 7y ago

lotsofpulp 7y ago

> * Signs in the Hotel warn you that you DO NOT have a right to privacy, and you must register your passport or state ID This applies in the US too in most cities I’ve done business in. Some hotels don’t enforce the ordinances, but the hotel is supposed verify who is staying at the hotel, along with license plate numbers of vehicles the guest has. Also, I wouldn’t want to stay in a hotel that doesn’t check rooms periodically (at least once per week), as that is a recipe for meth cooking and hoarders bringing pests into the building and numerous other problems.

adventured 7y ago
> This applies in the US too in most cities I’ve done business in. That they note that you don't have a right to privacy is the only odd part. It's fairly common around the world to have to present your passport / passport details at hotels for their records. It's definitely not strange that China's hotels would require that.
- 29_29 7y ago
  Do the police show up if you don’t register in Other countries they do in China.
  - adventured 7y ago
    > Do the police show up if you don’t register in the United States? I think that response is moving the goalpost. I noted that it's common throughout the world that hotels often require passport details. Your response to that is to change the issue in question to the consequences of non-compliance and away from what you initially presented as the problem ("you must register your passport or state ID").
    - 29_29 7y ago
      Goalpost? What is your goal? I was sharing my personal experience in traveling to China - being in a society with no notion of Human Rights, because someone asked. Is your goal to argue? I don't get it.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        >Goalpost? What is your goal? His goal is to point out that you said "in China they tell you you need to register at hotels", and when he answered that that's the case in the US and other countries too, you expanded your question to "Does the police show up if you don’t register in Other countries they do in China". That's normally called "moving the goalposts". Now you're implying that they have some further motive, or just "want to agree". Well, they wanted to point a flaw in your original argument (that implied it's somehow unique to China to have you register at hotels). Are they allowed to?
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  I’ve seen it in the fine print reserving the right to enter hotel room at any time. Police don’t need warrants for hotel rooms either.
  - 7y ago
greedo 7y ago
Hotels are not "supposed" to document license plates of guest vehicles in the US. No such law or ordinance requires this. If a hotel is doing that, it's for when you're parking on hotel property; most hotels charge for parking, or limit it to patrons. Most hotels don't check IDs when you check in, all they care about is having a credit card so they can charge you for "incidentals" like the aforementioned parking.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Yes, I thought it would be obvious that I'm referring to hotel guests having to disclose the license plate of the vehicle on the hotel property. And IDs are required at every hotel and it's stated on the websites of all the big chains. Either way, I've never seen a town's laws not require innkeepers to know who they're housing, which means checking IDs. A quick google search shows many town ordinances such as this one: http://carync.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=1037&MediaPosition=1589.933&ID=1232&CssClass= http://carync.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&... >Guest register. Every innkeeper shall at all times keep and maintain on the premises of hotel a guest register in which shall be inscribed the name and home address of each guest and shall contain such guest's vehicle description and license plate state and number.
  - greedo 7y ago
    Your own link shows that such a requirement is at odds with the Constitution: "On June 22, 2015, the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in City of Los Angeles v. Patel that a Los Angeles ordinance requiring hoteliers to keep and maintain guest registries and to make them available to the police upon request violated the hoteliers Fourth Amendment rights. "
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Yes, but the revised ordinance still requires a record of the information to exist. The crosses out portion is the one that gave any law enforcement the right to see it any time, but 9 times out of 10, a hotel is not going to refuse a police department’s request if they ask about someone staying at the hotel. Hotels need to be on the good side of the police.

tasogare 7y ago

Most of things you listed are done in a lot of countries. 1 & 5 are done in countries like US or France after terror attacks. China also have to deal with the islamic menace, so it's not surprising they implement 6. Passeport registration in hotels is probably done in most country of the world (at least all I visited). Cute police character is something totally normal in Asia (here is a Japanese example http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/fukei/foreign/kansiki/shomei.html http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/fukei/foreign/kansiki/shomei.html). Camera are everywhere in every big city. Finally, the only (scary) things really specific to China you list are the milice and the fact they clearly told you have no privacy right.

29_29 7y ago
Sorry I am a non sophisticated peasant that likes Human Rights. I'll go back to my internet hole.
snupples 7y ago
Except in Japan it really is just a cute cartoon. There is very little actual police presence and they rarely carry firearms or project a forceful posture.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Context really matters though.

mach5 7y ago

* "Security Check" https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/546564142.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1 https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/546564142.jpg?... * Cartoons - https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91dnIHIQXfL._SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91dnIHIQXfL... * The Red Armbands - https://www.patriotguard.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pgr_formation.jpg https://www.patriotguard.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pgr_... * Passport check - https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-patrols-100-mile-zone-probably-you-mapped/558275/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-p... * Police everywhere. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8G7XsjSzRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8G7XsjSzRo * I saw a a mosque surrounded by security cameras. https://www.aclu.org/other/factsheet-nypd-muslim-surveillance-program https://www.aclu.org/other/factsheet-nypd-muslim-surveillanc... * I was watched everywhere - i could go on and on... PRISM, security cameras everywhere, Ring doorbell cams being given to cops, stingray, etc etc etc etc etc * Signs in the Hotel warn you that you DO NOT have a right to privacy, and you must register your passport or state ID - Same in the US at least China is open about it, and has tons of socialist policies so people don't die from poverty.

29_29 7y ago
Get a life. This is bullshit. My bet is you've never been out of the country. There is no equivalency between a Democracy and China's system. You found an image for each idea. What I described was a society without Human Rights.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  I bet they'd also equate China's genocide of minority ethnicities to the detention of people who sneak into the USA. But that Paw Patrol image made my eyes roll so hard I could see my own brain.
- dang 7y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN.

whoevercares 7y ago

Ah the first four things are pretty amusing to native Chineses, but I’d say for locals they probably never thought it’s related to any sort of oppression or censorship (they think the cartoon was cute and btw Chineses love polices around don’t ask why...). Upper class Chineses are more aware of surveillance and they have some countermeasures but most people don’t really care and even support it. Yes there were attacks before so many places in Beijing has absurd security control. There’s definitely a privacy issue there but it’s close to impossible to raise the awareness of Chineses unless something drastic happens. Edit: Perhaps I have a low bar of human right issues but those you described doesn’t seem like red flag to me

ordinaryradical 7y ago

I have noticed that whenever one brings up concrete examples of Chinese state surveillance, oppression, or bad behavior, people come out of the woodwork with examples of how it is “no different” than the other western countries. There seems to be a pattern of attempting false equivalence on every subject that paints China in a bad light. Is that because the West is acutely self-critical? Or is there something else going on here?

merpnderp 7y ago
This is likely because people argue false equivalence in just about everything in there lives.
scarejunba 7y ago
Well, like most of what he's saying also applies to lots of places I felt safe and free in. Like Japan has police (non-threatening) everywhere, requires you to carry your passport with you, has cameras everywhere and yet I felt safe and free and generally anxiety free there. I was taking photos with a long lens of the subway trains! In the UK, you'd be questioned for that. In the US, I don't know. Could go any way. Egypt under Hosni Mubarak near the end was notably different. There'd be heavily armed soldiers everywhere in all black. Unexplainable trucks of soldiers going everywhere. Locals wouldn't talk about certain places. I haven't been to China myself but my parents have and we've all been to Egypt and their impression was that the big cities were pretty much like a big European city or something like New York. If it gives you any faith that my opinion isn't some Chinabot, I still remember The Economist's Red Moon Rising issue as frightening. I just think they're probably very good at keeping the authoritarianism inconspicuous and therefore more terrifying. I don't deny your experience but this could be one of those Rashomon like situations where we all look at the same thing and come away with a different picture. And if it wasn't actually in your face then it'll discredit any argument about China's authoritarianism when people go there and see a prosperous happy people instead.

yorwba 7y ago

> * "Security Check" - Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. Those were installed for the Olympics in 2008, I believe, when they feared terrorist attacks with foreign victims tarnishing their image. Nowadays they're still manned, but more security theater. I got all kinds of questionable stuff through the scanner, including an induction stove and a kitchen knife. No one ever bothered to take a closer look. > * Cartoons - Authoritarianism was wrapped up and packaged with cute police cartoons Police ≠ Authoritarianism. Most Chinese police officers are just doing completely ordinary police work. > * Police everywhere. Literally everywhere Sounds like you literally never left the touristy areas. China has fewer law enforcement personnel per inhabitant than most Western countries and heavy presence is limited to only a few important spots, like tourist attractions. > * I saw a a mosque surrounded by security cameras. They didn't even hide its surveillance. I've never seen a mosque without security cameras in Western Europe either. Mosques are prime targets for all kinds of hate crimes, so they're obviously going to use surveillance to protect themselves. > * I was watched everywhere, except the great wall - but I was told cameras are being constructed there too. The feeling I had was like being in the forest of District 12 of the Hunger Games, I felt free there. Next time you're in China, try taking the subway to somewhere out in the periphery and then just walk in a random direction for an hour or so. You're going to see a China that is much less surveilled, without police; a China that is dirtier, poorer and in a way more honest than what you see if you just tick off the famous tourist spots. You'll still be watched, of course; not by cameras, but by ordinary Chinese citizens who don't get to see a foreigner everyday.

29_29 7y ago
I may be more sensitive to surveillance than others. I work in Tech, and I was fascinated by the sheer number of sheer number of Hikvision facial recognition cameras I saw. Here is a picture of one set of cameras around the mosque, which did not seem normal to us. My cousin pointed it out and we laughed at the blatant violation of privacy we saw - saying they don't even hide the fact they are watching https://imgur.com/a/8WbFxBi https://imgur.com/a/8WbFxBi and I'm not sure its fair to say I stayed in tourist areas, I was an hour and a half outside of town, and we ventured into poor areas of SH.
- 7y ago

namelosw 7y ago

> Airport style security everywhere even on the subway. Why not? A Subway casualty could be much more serious than a single plane. It's thousands vs hundreds. > They didn't even hide its surveillance. They shouldn't, right?