5 ms·

This war very much effects us as technologists, both directly as restrictions on what we may build and operate, as well as indirectly through our ethical obliga

This war very much effects us as technologists, both directly as restrictions on what we may build and operate, as well as indirectly through our ethical obligations to act with the public interest in mind. For example, it would be illegal for me to run a website which let sex workers anonymously check a particular client’s phone number to see if someone had previously reported them as violent. FOSTA/SESTA would expose me to both criminal and civil liability, even if it wasn’t intentionally made with sex workers in mind, if I didn’t act to stomp out any sex workers from using the service.

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
So why are Equifax and Experian and TransUnion or any of the other operations that feed them data allowed to operate? They get hacked and go unpunished... They lie about me, and when I complain, they tack on notes about me being a complainer. America is done. End it for good.
lxmorj 7y ago
That's bonkers.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  And arguably going to be overturned after a couple attempts at enforcement. Backpage was taken down with the law after making themselves a political target. If they hadn't been painted as supporting sex trafficking I think people would realize the law is unconstitutional. It attempts to place prior restraint on speech.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    Even worse - Backpage was taken down without the use of SESTA/FOSTA.
dual_basis 7y ago
On the other hand, I sort of worry about anonymously crowd-sourcing reputation like this. Putting aside the notion of sex workers for a minute, suppose you ran a site where people could report bad drivers by their license plate numbers. (I believe such sites exist.) If someone doesn't like you, they go on and file fake reports about you, and now you can't get a delivery job (etc). There have already been issues with more public entities on sites like Yelp which have caused people to lose their entire livelihood, and now you want to bring that sort of thing to individuals?
- jdc 7y ago
  You don't need to look any further than ratemyprofessors.com for a thriving and, more to the point, legal example of this kind of site. So if this practice is going to be illegal, can it at least not be industry specific?
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  Are you saying that should be illegal? Doesn’t that seem like a violation of freedom of speech? As it is, libel laws give you protection if you can prove the claims are false, and you can get civil damages if you show harm. What would you say should be legislated beyond that?
  - Spearchucker 7y ago
    Well yes but reality might result in no cases because the victims cannot afford the legal fees, for example. It's a complex thing.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    When reports are anonymous, you'll have trouble suing for libel. When the output of the site isn't a stated fact ("person x did y"), but a "calculated probability" without actually producing any of the reports ... good luck proving that the probability of you recklessly driving is below 50%. It's not an easy decision, but I lean towards "should be illegal if done anonymously and without proof".
_chendo_ 7y ago
Yes, it does affect us, but let's not forget that FOSTA/SESTA, as well as the general stigma around sex work puts sex workers at real risk of violence and death. Even "progressive" companies like Cloudflare kicked us off with ZERO warning after Switter (a social platform for sex workers) was covered in the press (https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17256370/switter-cloudflare-sex-workers-banned https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17256370/switter-cloudfla...), but neo-Nazi platforms were were given detailed blog posts on why they were kicked off (https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ & https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/), and only after massive pressure from the community after people DIED. But a website where the goal is to increase safety for sex workers? Gone without warning. It's bullshit like this that further strengthens our resolve to ensure that we (Assembly Four) continue to exist so we can continue to use our privilege to assist one of the most stigmatised groups in the world. For more background on FOSTA/SESTA, why we started Assembly Four and Switter, see my article on Medium: https://medium.com/assembly-four/my-six-week-rollercoaster-ride-172eb58ba80e https://medium.com/assembly-four/my-six-week-rollercoaster-r...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Smithalicious 7y ago
  8chan was not a "neo-Nazi platform". Neo-Nazi content made up a minority of content on the side, though it was a substantial amount.
  - La1n 7y ago
    So it was a neo-nazi platform, just not exclusively.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      In the same way that anything is a neo nazi platform. Facebook, twitter and instagram have their fair share of those too.
MuffinFlavored 7y ago
> it would be illegal for me to run a website which let sex workers anonymously check a particular client’s phone number to see if someone had previously reported them as violent I always had a business idea that is very similar to this. It would be a good use for decentralized "blockchain based" (aka no mediator). It would be like LinkedIn, but instead of thumbs ups and high fives saying what an awesome boss you are and how your Excel skills are second to none, it would be the truth about working for/with certain individuals/companies. You could even have a spinoff that talks about romantic partners. Who is a known cheater, abuser, etc.
- new2628 7y ago
  I sincerely hope that you (or others) will not get around to implementing this idea.
  - MuffinFlavored 7y ago
    That is the general feedback, but I'd be curious to hear why? It would only be successful with some kind of "proof" system. At least 5 witnesses would need to approve the claim, etc. Decentralized judicial system

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago

So why are Equifax and Experian and TransUnion or any of the other operations that feed them data allowed to operate? They get hacked and go unpunished... They lie about me, and when I complain, they tack on notes about me being a complainer. America is done. End it for good.

lxmorj 7y ago

That's bonkers.

snagglegaggle 7y ago
And arguably going to be overturned after a couple attempts at enforcement. Backpage was taken down with the law after making themselves a political target. If they hadn't been painted as supporting sex trafficking I think people would realize the law is unconstitutional. It attempts to place prior restraint on speech.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  Even worse - Backpage was taken down without the use of SESTA/FOSTA.

dual_basis 7y ago

On the other hand, I sort of worry about anonymously crowd-sourcing reputation like this. Putting aside the notion of sex workers for a minute, suppose you ran a site where people could report bad drivers by their license plate numbers. (I believe such sites exist.) If someone doesn't like you, they go on and file fake reports about you, and now you can't get a delivery job (etc). There have already been issues with more public entities on sites like Yelp which have caused people to lose their entire livelihood, and now you want to bring that sort of thing to individuals?

jdc 7y ago
You don't need to look any further than ratemyprofessors.com for a thriving and, more to the point, legal example of this kind of site. So if this practice is going to be illegal, can it at least not be industry specific?
erikpukinskis 7y ago
Are you saying that should be illegal? Doesn’t that seem like a violation of freedom of speech? As it is, libel laws give you protection if you can prove the claims are false, and you can get civil damages if you show harm. What would you say should be legislated beyond that?
- Spearchucker 7y ago
  Well yes but reality might result in no cases because the victims cannot afford the legal fees, for example. It's a complex thing.
- luckylion 7y ago
  When reports are anonymous, you'll have trouble suing for libel. When the output of the site isn't a stated fact ("person x did y"), but a "calculated probability" without actually producing any of the reports ... good luck proving that the probability of you recklessly driving is below 50%. It's not an easy decision, but I lean towards "should be illegal if done anonymously and without proof".

_chendo_ 7y ago

Yes, it does affect us, but let's not forget that FOSTA/SESTA, as well as the general stigma around sex work puts sex workers at real risk of violence and death. Even "progressive" companies like Cloudflare kicked us off with ZERO warning after Switter (a social platform for sex workers) was covered in the press (https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17256370/switter-cloudflare-sex-workers-banned https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17256370/switter-cloudfla...), but neo-Nazi platforms were were given detailed blog posts on why they were kicked off (https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/ & https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/), and only after massive pressure from the community after people DIED. But a website where the goal is to increase safety for sex workers? Gone without warning. It's bullshit like this that further strengthens our resolve to ensure that we (Assembly Four) continue to exist so we can continue to use our privilege to assist one of the most stigmatised groups in the world. For more background on FOSTA/SESTA, why we started Assembly Four and Switter, see my article on Medium: https://medium.com/assembly-four/my-six-week-rollercoaster-ride-172eb58ba80e https://medium.com/assembly-four/my-six-week-rollercoaster-r...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Smithalicious 7y ago
8chan was not a "neo-Nazi platform". Neo-Nazi content made up a minority of content on the side, though it was a substantial amount.
- La1n 7y ago
  So it was a neo-nazi platform, just not exclusively.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    In the same way that anything is a neo nazi platform. Facebook, twitter and instagram have their fair share of those too.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago

> it would be illegal for me to run a website which let sex workers anonymously check a particular client’s phone number to see if someone had previously reported them as violent I always had a business idea that is very similar to this. It would be a good use for decentralized "blockchain based" (aka no mediator). It would be like LinkedIn, but instead of thumbs ups and high fives saying what an awesome boss you are and how your Excel skills are second to none, it would be the truth about working for/with certain individuals/companies. You could even have a spinoff that talks about romantic partners. Who is a known cheater, abuser, etc.

new2628 7y ago
I sincerely hope that you (or others) will not get around to implementing this idea.
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  That is the general feedback, but I'd be curious to hear why? It would only be successful with some kind of "proof" system. At least 5 witnesses would need to approve the claim, etc. Decentralized judicial system