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I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and

• devtul 7y ago
  Women definitely have their share on the stigma, too many times have I seen women using mental issues to emasculate men.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• cwbrandsma 7y ago
  I’m not sure this is only western society. Is there an indigenous culture that values male emotions without stigma? As I think about Asia and Africa, I’m drawing a blank on this. But I’d be happy to be shown wrong.
  • SllX 7y ago
    You can have emotionless warriors or you can have emotional pacifists. You might even have emotional warriors, but emotionless pacifists is a hard sell. If the State monopolizes violence to the point that we can’t hash things out with our fists, and there’s no room in our society to emotionally vent, then what’s left? It’s not like violence disappeared from society, it just takes different forms when suppressed.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • dang 7y ago
      There's a lot of room in our society to emotionally vent; it just happens in private relationships and on internet forums. The challenge is that the emotions are often uncontained, and uncontained emotion is closely related to violence, as you say.
      • edmundsauto 7y ago
        What's even more interesting (to me, at least) is that venting might not be helpful. "Does distraction or rumination work better to diffuse anger? Catharsis theory predicts that rumination works best, but empirical evidence is lacking." [0] http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf
        • dang 7y ago
          It is an interesting question. I've personally found that most venting and catharsis leads to repetition and maybe even strengthens existing patterns. Contemporary work on trauma (Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Gabor Maté) regards catharsis as retraumatizing and works instead with "titration", i.e. re-experiencing and expressing just a little at a time. On the other hand, I've personally experienced a cathartic process that—as best as one can trace these things—brought real change, so there's no single answer about this.
      • jimkleiber 7y ago
        I agree about spaces to emotionally vent...goodness, the internet lets me vent about anything, at any time, with almost any audience of my choosing, through words, sounds, and video. On the second part, I would say that emotions are often unarticulated, which may be similar to what you're saying. For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??" I've noticed in traffic that if someone cuts me off, I'll have a reflex to cuss out the guy or say something about him being an idiot, and then I'll pause and go, "I really just felt afraid that I would crash." I could tell story after story about how the emotion is not being clearly articulated, and that when it is, it can really realign the situation. But, to quote James Pennebaker, author of Opening Up (a book that I read and loved) and lots of work on journaling and emotions: "Verbally labeling an emotion is much like applying a digital technology (language) to an analog signal (emotion and the emotional experience)." --from https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/01/PennebakerChung_FriedmanChapter.pdf https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/..., an article I have not yet fully read. So, in conclusion, maybe my unarticulated is your uncontained analog signal :-D
    • jimkleiber 7y ago
      I mean, sometimes I think about the days of yore when people could punch each other and the fight would resolve itself, and maybe that happened in the past and maybe I'm just thinking it happened like that. I think with physical violence, it can escalate. You punch me and "win" the fight, next time I come back with a few friends and the fight may get worse over time. And that's just assuming it's only punches. If knives or guns are involved, it can escalate really fast, and perpetuate unresolved for years, if not generations. And I agree with you that the violence is just taking other forms. One can't punch another, so instead, we shame that person, humiliate them, embarrass them in front of their friends and loved ones. I sometimes have fear of posting on public forums, saying something that will make someone angry, and then receiving an onslaught of comments ridiculing me and beyond. So while I think some conflict can resolve itself through merely putting on gloves and duking it out, I think more often than not conflict resolves itself much better through communicating in a nonviolent way.
      • josinalvo 7y ago
        That is the thing, though. Violence had social norms around it. It was not the case that you could escalate forever. I remember one message from a father to a son, for example, that said "never throw the first punch unless he is X inches taller than you". Of course, this might have been a tad to noble for the time, but still, there were norms.
  • peteretep 7y ago
    I’ve been in Bali recently, and although it’s still a very patriarchal society, I’ve had a distinct sense that masculinity is more fluid than in — say — Thailand, which might feel like it should be similar. There are Balinese guys with flowers in their hair, and I’ve seen none of the aggression that occasionally raises its head in Thailand.
    • klipt 7y ago
      That kind of disproves the "patriarchy causes male aggression" theory, doesn't it?
      • peteretep 7y ago
        Maybe? So? What point did you think I was trying to make?
  • jimkleiber 7y ago
    When you say "male emotions," I feel a bit unsure which emotions you mean. Sadness? Anger? Confusion? Pride? I'm not sure if there is a culture, indigenous or not, that values the expression of all emotions, and if it does, not sure if the people in the culture walk the talk, so to say. I take it back, I think many religions seem to value the expression of most emotions, especially Buddhism, at least in theory, and yet I don't know how many people achieve that in practice. I keep trying and it really really challenges me lol.
    • neltnerb 7y ago
      I mean, Tantra, or at least some takes on it, is training yourself to be receptive and open to your own emotions. To various extents in Taoist groups historically, presumably at least partially continuing. Being in touch with your own emotions is a pretty big aspect of a lot of martial arts, although I suppose not expressing them.
      • jimkleiber 7y ago
        Ah, cool, I'll check more into Tantra! With regards to martial arts, maybe it just depends on the definition of expressing them. To put them into words, maybe not so much. I remember taking a Krav Maga class and I saw the head trainer go from calm to intensely focused and powerful in a flash, and then back to calm after the exercise. So, for me, he was expressing the emotions physically, just not so much with his words. At the same time, in other self-defense trainings I've taken, I've seen more emphasis on how to express verbally, lending towards conflict de-escalation. But I would agree, overall, that most martial arts don't seem to highlight the verbal expression of emotions...but I hope to one day change that. I've been building a martial art/self-defense system that focuses more on responding to emotional attacks, as I believe I'm much more likely to be emotionally attacked than physically attacked.
        • neltnerb 7y ago
          That sounds interesting, and yes, I meant verbal expression. I'm a second degree black belt and I find it tricky to respond to emotional attacks, it'd be nice to practice techniques for not being angry for ten minutes after a car cuts me off in a crosswalk. It's not an emotional attack in the sense that attacks need to be intentional, but tools for recognizing the source of emotions and letting that tension release is a life skill that is not explicitly taught much. I definitely didn't learn it in karate, but I did learn it in meditation practices from other sources. Combining it all holistically would be interesting.
  • golemiprague 7y ago
    Western society is also "indigenous", mainly to Europe and no, if anything the only society blubbering about emotions is the western society because it doesn't have to deal with too much adversity. It will all end when some hardship will come its way and we all give a bit less importance to feminist agendas.
• Thriptic 7y ago
  To your point, that same stigma about LGBT guys being weak, feminine, and emotional is one of the many factors that stops a lot of people from coming out too.
  • Joof 7y ago
    Yeah, pretty much.
  • DollarGuru 7y ago
    Its understandable why we make those assumptions because those camp and effeminate LGBT members stand out so much. The LGBT members that don't have those characteristics you would never know they were LGBT.
    • bnjms 7y ago
      Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. This seems mostly true to me. One thing I’ve noticed is younger gay men still seem gay but don’t seem as effeminate as the older men. Maybe that’s just selection bias but it seems like the culture doesn’t ask for as strong of signaling as it did in the past.
    • mirimir 7y ago
      Maybe like Brad Pitt as Achilles. Who was bisexual. Which, I gather, was common at the time among warriors.
      • goatinaboat 7y ago
        Which, I gather, was common at the time among warriors. The Greek concept of sexuality was quite different than ours, and their class system played a very predominant role in what we would call gender. Also, age.
        • mirimir 7y ago
          From what I know, yes. Your "gender" status basically depended on who you could penetrate, and vice versa.
• munificent 7y ago
  > it's not only the men causing it. One thing I find fascinating about humans is that we are so compulsively cultural that we will actively propagate cultural practices that are harmful even to ourselves. When you are young, you absorb whatever culture is around you completely uncritically, and then you immediately turn around and start broadcasting to the next generation. Cultural changes and evolves, of course, but it's really hard to uproot a norm or more once it's settled in, even if it's one that causes you personal pain.
  • throwaway87378 7y ago
    > Cultural changes and evolves, of course, but it's really hard to uproot a norm or more once it's settled in, even if it's one that causes you personal pain. Terence McKenna lectured on this at length. Here are some apropos quotations: "As a global civilization, we can no longer afford the luxury of an unconscious mind. When you can pull down the fusion processes that light the stars on the cities of your enemies, when you can sequence DNA, when you can map the heart of the atom, then it is entirely inappropriate to have an unconscious mind, because the power that is given onto you is a kind of god-like Promethean power. So how can we switch on the lights on our animal nature…? I think it is very simple: we have to de-condition ourselves from culture. We are sick, we require medical intervention… into what is a galloping, cancerous state of neurosis - the growth and spread of ego. Ego is like a calcareous growth in the psyche of human beings, and if it is not treated, it creates the kind of society that we have. A society based on hierarchy, male dominance, accumulation of physical goods,suppression of the weak by the strong… This is why the psychedelics are so socially sensitive, because they dissolve de-conditioning. Every culture is a scam. Every culture is a lie. A shell game, run by weasels, for the amusement of rubes. If you do not want to be a weasel or a rube, then you need to inform yourself of how the shell game works, and what lies beyond the carnival midway of civilized values. And the way to do that is to go back to the plants, to the original gnosis." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IO7pHD3X9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IO7pHD3X9M "Culture is an effort to satisfy this weird desire human beings have to close off experience, to live with closure, to force closure. That is why cultural trips are so bizarre; why they don't make sense to anybody but the Witoto, or the Guaraní, or the Americans, or the Japanese. If you are not inside a culture, it seems crazy. Cultures do not make sense because they are not trying to make sense. What they are trying to do is produce closure, which then somehow makes a human being, who is living in the light of closure, a more manipulable, a more malleable, a lesser thing… The message coming back at all of us is: live without closure. That is the honest position given that you are some kind of a talking monkey, some kind of a primate, some kind of creature, on a planet, in an animal body,in a time and space. In the face of that, life without closure is the only kind of intellectual honesty there is. If you have to inoculate yourself against the various means of closure that are around,psychedelics do that. That is why they are so politically controversial and potent, because more than any other single act that you may voluntarily undertake, they pull the plug on the myth of cultural meaning." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydTqnrXCGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydTqnrXCGY
• ericmcer 7y ago
  Our society will always value men who are confident, this is so much deeper to me than being scared to share your feelings because “it’s gay”. Women are attracted to confidence, employers reward confidence, hiring managers are impressed by confidence. Vulnerability and weakness are just not rewarded for men or women, but especially for men.
  • bonniemuffin 7y ago
    I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness. Our society currently says it is, but I could equally imagine a future in which being vulnerable and honest about your feelings is seen as a feat of strength and courage -- because it DOES take a lot of courage, and even confidence, to be open and honest about your feelings.
    • darkerside 7y ago
      Sure, it demonstrates a kind of strength and confidence to be open about your weakness. But that's literally what a vulnerability is: a weakness.
      • kungtotte 7y ago
        Developing mental health issues and unstable personal relationships because you're unable to access and share your emotions is also a weakness that derives from the emotional suppression that men are taught is a desired masculine trait. It doesn't have to be like this. Vulnerability doesn't have to be a weakness, showing your emotions can be a masculine trait. We're not defined by, nor locked into, our traditional cultural values and norms.
        • DollarGuru 7y ago
          Part of the issue though is that expressing those emotions seems to undermine your personal power in other people's view of you. To them you may have become ineffective and potentially ripe for replacement whether that is in a job, relationship, or friendship. Somehow you have to both express your emotions and that you are still highly effective. That you can't be exploited, a potential pushover, or a loose cannon for your emotional expression.
• fragmede 7y ago
  I've found that depends on which generation you're interacting with. Millenials seem far more able to say "I love you" to people that they love outside of their immediate biological family. It's not just the women, either. Men are able to express their feelings to other men in a non-romantic way. Absent is the toxic homophobia that has so colored previous generations. Hell, their recognition of non-binary genders, preferred pronouns, and a singular 'they' pronoun, speaks volumes as to how much ideas around gender and masculinity has changed. Not that long ago, the idea that a person's gender didn't fit neatly into one of two boxes was unthinkinable.
  • fapjacks 7y ago
    Maybe you would be surprised to learn that previous generations were also quite free with their love. They just expressed it differently and of course, having grown older, now understand that not everyone who says "I love you" is being emotionally transparent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you were around for any previous generations. Perhaps you will understand when you get older and watch the next generation talk about how everything we (every previous generation) have done and are doing is a broken, shitty mess, and how they have it all figured out. This is how every generation plays out.
  • whenchamenia 7y ago
    Openness has gone down over time imho. Too many unbroachable subjects and kneejerkers. I somehow observed life and came to the opposite conclusion as you did. Curious. Whats a big world we live in.
  • josinalvo 7y ago
    Before people had a firm idea of homosexuality, men did show affection for other men as well. It went like this: it is ok to hold hands with a man (because no one will think you are gay/because no one thinks anyone is gay) -> it is not ok to hold hands (because people will think you are gay) -> it is ok to hold hands (because it would not be a problem if you were gay) and the last step is still ongoing...
    • airbreather 7y ago
• jimkleiber 7y ago
  Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that it's not just us men pressuring each other to speak/feel in certain ways. I think so many of us reinforce the emotional code on men and on each other. I'm guilty of doing it as well. While a woman may have told me "don't cry (or be sad)," "don't be a baby (or express helplessness)," "don't be lazy (or feel too relaxed)," or "stop being so jealous," I have also told people "don't worry," "relax (or don't feel stressed)," "chill out (don't be angry)," and others. I try as much as I can to let people feel whatever they are feeling, annnnnd I'm still human and project a lot of my cultural expectations on others and myself. Really grateful to have this space on HN for this conversation and to further the conversation :-D
• mirimir 7y ago
  If they say stuff like that, they aren't friends. The polite response is something like: "I hear that as shaming, and it offends me."
• ekianjo 7y ago
  Western society? far from western society only. Exact same thing across most countries in Asia.
• goatinaboat 7y ago
  When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "Are they gay?" It's funny. From the days of chivalry all the way to the modern patriarchy, men's behaviours have been conditioned by one overriding factor: what will impress women? I don't see that evaporating overnight. Men suppress the emotions for the simple reason that women have demonstrated a preference for men that do that, and this is simply an example of that being made explicit. You could say "this is how the patriarchy harms men!". But it wasn't men who chose it to be this way.
  • paganel 7y ago
    12th or 13th century chivalrous poetry from South of France was still full of feelings and what have you, and a little earlier the Arthur-related stories were not void of feelings either. I personally blame the “Protestant ethic”, for lack of a better name, which started culturally imposing itself starting with the mid-1600s in England and present-day Netherlands (in the early 1600s a guy like Shakespeare was still not afraid to share his feelings in his Sonnets).
    • hirako2000 7y ago
      Spot on.
    • nradov 7y ago
      Did the majority of 12th century French women consider those poets attractive?
      • paganel 7y ago
        Probably, otherwise why would have they wrote the way that they did? And earlier than that we have Achilles, the male character that is synonymous with courage and presented by Homer as “the greatest of all Greek warriors”, but even so he wasn’t afraid to cry when his close friend Patroclus was killed in battle.
        • nradov 7y ago
• phkahler 7y ago
  There's a part in Brene Browns "Daring Greatly" where a guy says that his wife and daughter would rather he die on his horse than to fall off. Brown comes back with a very impractical response to the effect of "well then they have work to do too".
• VvR-Ox 7y ago
  +1 I have few male friends I can share feelings with and most of the females I've dealt with just don't want this while wishing for men to be more sensible.
• m1sta_ 7y ago
  It's worse outside of western society.
• LoveDeathRobots 7y ago
  > I participated in men's work .. I'm a little confused, who are the they you are referring to? People are hired on to perform tasks in return for remuneration and feelings should be reserved for outside the job. Getting emotionally involved with ones co-workers is a recipe for disaster. If you're ever invited to a workshop on diversity, don't go. James Damore and Professor Alessandro Strumia would know why.