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Consciousness is not so much a scientific problem than a political one. As far as science is concerned, "consciousness" is a word, and is vaguely defined. There

Consciousness is not so much a scientific problem than a political one. As far as science is concerned, "consciousness" is a word, and is vaguely defined. Therefore this discussion is more relevant about its implications in legal and political matters such as animal rights and abortion.

nihilismislove 7y ago
In this case, the ability to experience positive and negative mental states, can be used in place of consciousness. Especially the ability to experience suffering might offer reasonable basis for approaching ethical questions. In terms of animal rights this is as simple as assuming that at least most vertebrae experience mental states, incl. suffering, from at least shortly after birth (which we can safely do) In terms of abortion, this still leaves us with the additional question of weighing contrary interests of 2 individuals. This is trivial when weighing the interests of pregnant person vs sth like a 10-week fetus (obviously incapable of experiencing mental states) but maybe not sufficient for arguments about 30+ weeks fetuses, depending on personal values
- buboard 7y ago
  That is a better definition than the elusive conscious
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  A 10-week fetus, ie 20 weeks of gestation, can hear [1], suck, swallow. I would not say it's obvious they can't experience "mental states"; especially not as you appear to be arguing almost all animalkind can experience those states. [1] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002398.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002398.htm
  - nihilismislove 7y ago
    Well, that wasn't my main point and I did mean 10 weeks of gestation (just as an example). Still, physiological responses are not the best indicator of mental states - plants and primitive animals (from sponges to bivalves) have them too, despite lacking the neurological development necessary for (or evolutionary need for) "consciousness".
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Your second paragraph there seems to refute your position. If you can't tell physiologically then how are you telling that "most vertebrates experience mental states". You seem to be arguing for an assumed position starting from that position (petitio principii). And I agree that physiological responses aren't the best way to show mental states. I cry sometimes for no reason whatsoever, my eyes just leak; you can't infer fear just because a creature backs away from fire, either.
psychoslave 7y ago
Have you ever heard of Glasgow Coma Scale[1]? Of course the question of consciousness is an heavily political issue, that doesn't make it a topic out of science. First, generally speaking science is largely shaped through political decisions. Sure thought experiments and the kind of manual experiments that can be conducted by a solitary genius in its basement can lead to breakthrough, provided the said genius is indeed not limited by any external social pressure that prevent to freely dedicate its proper resources on its whims. But no single genius will make the Manhattan project or an LHC in its kitchen during its spare time. Medicine is generally recognized as a science. Some areas of medicine do focus on the topic of consciousness. Medicine is also a sensitive political matter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale
- buboard 7y ago
  yeah but doesnt explain what it feels like to be conscious. And so on and so forth ad infinitum

nihilismislove 7y ago

In this case, the ability to experience positive and negative mental states, can be used in place of consciousness. Especially the ability to experience suffering might offer reasonable basis for approaching ethical questions. In terms of animal rights this is as simple as assuming that at least most vertebrae experience mental states, incl. suffering, from at least shortly after birth (which we can safely do) In terms of abortion, this still leaves us with the additional question of weighing contrary interests of 2 individuals. This is trivial when weighing the interests of pregnant person vs sth like a 10-week fetus (obviously incapable of experiencing mental states) but maybe not sufficient for arguments about 30+ weeks fetuses, depending on personal values

buboard 7y ago
That is a better definition than the elusive conscious
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
A 10-week fetus, ie 20 weeks of gestation, can hear [1], suck, swallow. I would not say it's obvious they can't experience "mental states"; especially not as you appear to be arguing almost all animalkind can experience those states. [1] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002398.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002398.htm
- nihilismislove 7y ago
  Well, that wasn't my main point and I did mean 10 weeks of gestation (just as an example). Still, physiological responses are not the best indicator of mental states - plants and primitive animals (from sponges to bivalves) have them too, despite lacking the neurological development necessary for (or evolutionary need for) "consciousness".
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Your second paragraph there seems to refute your position. If you can't tell physiologically then how are you telling that "most vertebrates experience mental states". You seem to be arguing for an assumed position starting from that position (petitio principii). And I agree that physiological responses aren't the best way to show mental states. I cry sometimes for no reason whatsoever, my eyes just leak; you can't infer fear just because a creature backs away from fire, either.

psychoslave 7y ago

Have you ever heard of Glasgow Coma Scale[1]? Of course the question of consciousness is an heavily political issue, that doesn't make it a topic out of science. First, generally speaking science is largely shaped through political decisions. Sure thought experiments and the kind of manual experiments that can be conducted by a solitary genius in its basement can lead to breakthrough, provided the said genius is indeed not limited by any external social pressure that prevent to freely dedicate its proper resources on its whims. But no single genius will make the Manhattan project or an LHC in its kitchen during its spare time. Medicine is generally recognized as a science. Some areas of medicine do focus on the topic of consciousness. Medicine is also a sensitive political matter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale

buboard 7y ago
yeah but doesnt explain what it feels like to be conscious. And so on and so forth ad infinitum