8 ms·

It wasn't just a cluster of comments. Stallman not only harassed women and made them uncomfortable, he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for repor

It wasn't just a cluster of comments. Stallman not only harassed women and made them uncomfortable, he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker who kept harassing her. Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when people leap to the defense of people in positions of institutional and cultural power who behave in a way that disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people. See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...

deleted 7y ago
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fredsanford 7y ago
Just a few thoughts from and old guy who's baffled by some things in modern times... I struggle with names at times... And now pronouns? Uhhhh, I bet I screw it up more than 50% of the time. The differences in people (don't say god bless you you to some indians or muslims when they sneeze, for example) are more than I can keep track of at times. Does that make me a creep? There was one guy his chose "The Great and Powerful <something>" for his pronoun. Yeah, I'll remember that... At what point do you become a creep for not remembering? At what point do you become a target for the SJW hit squad?
- vector_spaces 7y ago
  WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I haven't met someone yet who has preferences outside of that. But you know what? If I met one, it would cost me virtually nothing to respect their preferences and make them feel seen. And to be clear -- it's absolutely fine (usually) to make mistakes, so long as you're making an effort to be respectful. It's not ideal to not remember someone's pronouns (and again, 99% of the time when it's different than what you'd expect, it's either "he", "she", or "they"), but it's also usually not the end of the world -- most people I know, myself included, are fine if you say "oops! my bad". Intentions go a long way.
  - x220 7y ago
    When is it not fine to make mistakes? You say that intentions go a long way (towards something), which makes it sound like it all depends on how this mistake is received by the transgender person. If there is no objective rule on how to acceptably address trans people, why should we enforce an imaginary rule?
  - fredsanford 7y ago
    >> WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I thought I covered that in 2 ways... 1) Random thoughts from an old guy 2) I was giving an example of the differences between people. I have been chastised in the past for saying bless you to some people. I've kind of trained myself now to say "Maay the diety of your choice bless you" in some cirumstances but I also get chastised for that. I've also been chastised for remaining silent. So, what choice do I make here to not be "creepy". For whatever it's worth.
    - magduf 7y ago
      >I've kind of trained myself now to say "Maay the diety of your choice bless you" in some cirumstances but I also get chastised for that. I always say "gesundheit", which is normal in German (it translates to "health"). As a non-religious person, I don't understand why religious people always want to push religion on everyone around them. The other thing you can do is just not say anything at all when someone sneezes. Asian cultures don't have this practice at all.
      - nyberg 7y ago
        It's not really pushing religion as it is an act of kindness. I don't really understand why someone would find it offensive for wishing them better health as it's the intention that counts rather than what faith you hold. I'm not religious at all and I still say "bless you" since it's from the culture I grew up with of wishing others well. If anyone finds that offensive then they certainly have more issues than I do.
- mnsc 7y ago
  I've had "SJW" thrown at me a few good times. I wouldn't ever call someone a creep for not remembering. However if you interact with someone who identifies as non-binary and they tell you they would like to be addressed as "they" and you make a point to use the biologically closest pronoun while you also make sure to let them know that you believe there's only two distinct sexes/genders. I would call you/think of you as a disrespectful human being. Nothing more nothing less. But I you really try to remember, but can't overcome your programming (I do that often with my non-binary acquaintances, it's hard as fuck, but I guess I'm getting old as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) then you are a human being that tries to be respectful. And that's a good thing! So take a look in the mirror and try to see which one you are and ignore those disrespectful human beings that would call you a creep for not remembering.
  - stOneskull 7y ago
    i wouldn't think you are being disrespectful for disagreeing that there are only two sexes. even if you were, then big whoop. you don't have to respect me. sometimes it seems like it's an endless boo-hoo until we're all winston smiths, scared to even think (and the thought of that really offends me).
    - mnsc 7y ago
      > you don't have to respect me Thank you for that free pass! I think you are a full on idiot that is void of empathy and is so full of yourself only because you read 1984 (I bet you've read atlas shrugged too and was "mind blown"). Your paranoia and tendency to see boogey mans is what's destroying the world, it's sure as fuck not me who say "let's try to respect each others wishes". You would do best if you didn't voice another butt stupid opinion until you talked to at least one intergender/trans/non-binary person which I assume you don't have. See, that's how you disagree in a disrespectful way. You absolute wanker.
  - x220 7y ago
    I think that respect is something earned and is not to be extended to everyone without distinction. If you think everyone should be called by their preferred pronouns, that's not respect.
- usrusr 7y ago
  Apparently the neovictorian age has come and just like in the original version, etiquette rules are escalating into a fierce arms race.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
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scoutt 7y ago
> disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people That sounds terribly exaggerated. If this is the way to describe Stallman, what adjectives could be reserved to the much worse people out there? You may not care about a random dude in the internet giving you an advice, but consider both sides of the coin and don't fall so quickly into manichaeism.
aortega 7y ago
>Stallman not only harassed women No proof of that. >and made them uncomfortable Not a crime. >he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker No proof of that, no proof of the coworker being transphobic, also all of that is not a crime. >See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.. https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.... That's the same person that accused Linus Torvalds of harassment and made him quit. Coincidence?
- _ph_ 7y ago
  >and made them uncomfortable Not a crime. I beg your pardon? Just because the police doesn't come after you (and depending how far he went, it might have been a literal crime), doesn't mean a behavior is acceptable. Do you have an employed job? In most work places creating a "hostile work environment" is a very good reason (and rightfully so) to be fired.
  - esyir 7y ago
    But there's also reasonable levels of discomfort and comfort, otherwise it turns into weaponized fragility. Also, Jesus, they literally classified asking someone out on a date as sexual harassment.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      Yes there are reasonable levels of discomfort, but at a decent work place, those cannot be set to high before HR should take actions. And by my understanding, he certainly was way more direct than asking someone out for a date. Have you seen the "pleasure cards"? I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists.
      - craigsmansion 7y ago
        > Have you seen the "pleasure cards"? Yes, having been asked "business or pleasure" countless times during his travel, his "pleasure card" is a nice pun on "business card". Of course, some might not like puns, so this reduces to "guy uses corny joke to introduce himself." I'm sure that never happened before. https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.jpg https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.... > I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists. Taking disagreements off-list is now harassment instead of good form? Feel free to reproduce exactly these harassing private exchanges here. I'm fairly sure rms wouldn't mind, so there is nothing stopping you from providing actual evidence for this particular accusation.
throw_xyzyz 7y ago
Then said woman apologies and blamed drugs and a 'tough personal time' for lashing out at free software: https://libreboot.org/news/unity.html https://libreboot.org/news/unity.html
- quadrangle 7y ago
  and, look at LibrePlanet mailing list archives and you'll see the same person is now a staunch defender of RMS and highly critical of people criticizing him now.
soulofmischief 7y ago
> Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. I'm sorry, but this isn't a prerequisite for working in the software industry. You are not allowed to vilify someone over having an opinion about gender, just like you shouldn't fire someone for having a different opinion on it than you. "Leah was at the time struggling with gender dysphoria and substance abuse. Since then, she has been managing these issues. She agrees that her behaviour was rash and is determined to find a unifying solution." The people involved have moved on. The internet, however, is still trying to sling mud where there is none in an embarrassing display of social lynching and lack of loyalty to people who have done so much for human freedom.
- tingletech 7y ago
  I don't know anything about the RMS incident -- but I work for a public university system in California, and last time I had the mandatory every-other-year sexual harassment prevention training, it said it was un-lawful for me not to use a person's identified pronouns.
  - Hitton 7y ago
    I guess that it could be seen as employer discriminating on employee on basis of sex or something which could make the company liable, but on personal level First Amendment still applies and there is no way you could be prosecuted for that.
    - dekhn 7y ago
      https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/may/fired-for-refusing-to-use-a-students-preferred-pronoun-why-every-american-should-be-concerned https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/may/fired-for-refusing-... """We were referred to a statement released by the school's attorney, which says: "Mr. Vlaming insisted on treating a transgender student differently than other students in the classroom, singling out the student on the basis of gender identity. In addition, Mr. Vlaming refused to comply with administrators' directives to follow division policies. During the public hearing before the school board, Mr. Vlaming again stated that he would not comply with these directives. Accordingly, the school board voted unanimously to terminate his employment. """ The fired individual does not have the monetary resources to fight this in the courts.
dependenttypes 7y ago
> he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker who kept harassing her Would you mind providing a citation for this? I am legitimately curious, Leah for example retracted their comments on the issue. > Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. Please elaborate. This is the first time that I hear of such an accusation. > See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.. https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.... I don't see anything wrong there. What is wrong with believing that victimless crimes should be legal? Also, asking someone on a date is harassment now? What?
- pseudalopex 7y ago
  As far as I know, Stallman respects "he", "she", and a genderless pronoun he made up. He refuses to respect singular "they".[1] [1] https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
  - dependenttypes 7y ago
    > he made up He says that he took it from "Marge Piercy's book Woman on the Edge of Time" > He refuses to respect singular "they". He says "As for \"they\", if you are plural by nature — for instance, if you are a colonial organism or a group mind, or if you wish to be known for having multiple personalities — I will use that plural pronoun to refer to you.", which seems fair to me.
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      He made up "perse". Singular "they" is common English. Not respecting it seems unfair to me.
      - dependenttypes 7y ago
        Unfair to whom? And why do you think that it is unfair? Is it just because it is popular?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

fredsanford 7y ago

Just a few thoughts from and old guy who's baffled by some things in modern times... I struggle with names at times... And now pronouns? Uhhhh, I bet I screw it up more than 50% of the time. The differences in people (don't say god bless you you to some indians or muslims when they sneeze, for example) are more than I can keep track of at times. Does that make me a creep? There was one guy his chose "The Great and Powerful <something>" for his pronoun. Yeah, I'll remember that... At what point do you become a creep for not remembering? At what point do you become a target for the SJW hit squad?

vector_spaces 7y ago
WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I haven't met someone yet who has preferences outside of that. But you know what? If I met one, it would cost me virtually nothing to respect their preferences and make them feel seen. And to be clear -- it's absolutely fine (usually) to make mistakes, so long as you're making an effort to be respectful. It's not ideal to not remember someone's pronouns (and again, 99% of the time when it's different than what you'd expect, it's either "he", "she", or "they"), but it's also usually not the end of the world -- most people I know, myself included, are fine if you say "oops! my bad". Intentions go a long way.
- x220 7y ago
  When is it not fine to make mistakes? You say that intentions go a long way (towards something), which makes it sound like it all depends on how this mistake is received by the transgender person. If there is no objective rule on how to acceptably address trans people, why should we enforce an imaginary rule?
- fredsanford 7y ago
  >> WRT the "don't say god bless you" thing, I'm not really sure how that fits into what I'm saying, and that feels kind of like a straw man -- likewise with the "one guy" and their pronoun -- most queer and trans folks don't have pronouns like that. They are usually either people who were gendered as men or women most of their lives, who decided that they want to go by "she" or "he" respectively later in life, or people who aren't comfortable with either, and prefer "they". I thought I covered that in 2 ways... 1) Random thoughts from an old guy 2) I was giving an example of the differences between people. I have been chastised in the past for saying bless you to some people. I've kind of trained myself now to say "Maay the diety of your choice bless you" in some cirumstances but I also get chastised for that. I've also been chastised for remaining silent. So, what choice do I make here to not be "creepy". For whatever it's worth.
  - magduf 7y ago
    >I've kind of trained myself now to say "Maay the diety of your choice bless you" in some cirumstances but I also get chastised for that. I always say "gesundheit", which is normal in German (it translates to "health"). As a non-religious person, I don't understand why religious people always want to push religion on everyone around them. The other thing you can do is just not say anything at all when someone sneezes. Asian cultures don't have this practice at all.
    - nyberg 7y ago
      It's not really pushing religion as it is an act of kindness. I don't really understand why someone would find it offensive for wishing them better health as it's the intention that counts rather than what faith you hold. I'm not religious at all and I still say "bless you" since it's from the culture I grew up with of wishing others well. If anyone finds that offensive then they certainly have more issues than I do.
mnsc 7y ago
I've had "SJW" thrown at me a few good times. I wouldn't ever call someone a creep for not remembering. However if you interact with someone who identifies as non-binary and they tell you they would like to be addressed as "they" and you make a point to use the biologically closest pronoun while you also make sure to let them know that you believe there's only two distinct sexes/genders. I would call you/think of you as a disrespectful human being. Nothing more nothing less. But I you really try to remember, but can't overcome your programming (I do that often with my non-binary acquaintances, it's hard as fuck, but I guess I'm getting old as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) then you are a human being that tries to be respectful. And that's a good thing! So take a look in the mirror and try to see which one you are and ignore those disrespectful human beings that would call you a creep for not remembering.
- stOneskull 7y ago
  i wouldn't think you are being disrespectful for disagreeing that there are only two sexes. even if you were, then big whoop. you don't have to respect me. sometimes it seems like it's an endless boo-hoo until we're all winston smiths, scared to even think (and the thought of that really offends me).
  - mnsc 7y ago
    > you don't have to respect me Thank you for that free pass! I think you are a full on idiot that is void of empathy and is so full of yourself only because you read 1984 (I bet you've read atlas shrugged too and was "mind blown"). Your paranoia and tendency to see boogey mans is what's destroying the world, it's sure as fuck not me who say "let's try to respect each others wishes". You would do best if you didn't voice another butt stupid opinion until you talked to at least one intergender/trans/non-binary person which I assume you don't have. See, that's how you disagree in a disrespectful way. You absolute wanker.
- x220 7y ago
  I think that respect is something earned and is not to be extended to everyone without distinction. If you think everyone should be called by their preferred pronouns, that's not respect.
usrusr 7y ago
Apparently the neovictorian age has come and just like in the original version, etiquette rules are escalating into a fierce arms race.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

scoutt 7y ago

> disempowers and dehumanizes marginalized people That sounds terribly exaggerated. If this is the way to describe Stallman, what adjectives could be reserved to the much worse people out there? You may not care about a random dude in the internet giving you an advice, but consider both sides of the coin and don't fall so quickly into manichaeism.

aortega 7y ago

>Stallman not only harassed women No proof of that. >and made them uncomfortable Not a crime. >he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker No proof of that, no proof of the coworker being transphobic, also all of that is not a crime. >See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.. https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.... That's the same person that accused Linus Torvalds of harassment and made him quit. Coincidence?

_ph_ 7y ago
>and made them uncomfortable Not a crime. I beg your pardon? Just because the police doesn't come after you (and depending how far he went, it might have been a literal crime), doesn't mean a behavior is acceptable. Do you have an employed job? In most work places creating a "hostile work environment" is a very good reason (and rightfully so) to be fired.
- esyir 7y ago
  But there's also reasonable levels of discomfort and comfort, otherwise it turns into weaponized fragility. Also, Jesus, they literally classified asking someone out on a date as sexual harassment.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Yes there are reasonable levels of discomfort, but at a decent work place, those cannot be set to high before HR should take actions. And by my understanding, he certainly was way more direct than asking someone out for a date. Have you seen the "pleasure cards"? I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists.
    - craigsmansion 7y ago
      > Have you seen the "pleasure cards"? Yes, having been asked "business or pleasure" countless times during his travel, his "pleasure card" is a nice pun on "business card". Of course, some might not like puns, so this reduces to "guy uses corny joke to introduce himself." I'm sure that never happened before. https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.jpg https://fossforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RMSleisure.... > I can testify of him harassing people privately over public discussions on mailing lists. Taking disagreements off-list is now harassment instead of good form? Feel free to reproduce exactly these harassing private exchanges here. I'm fairly sure rms wouldn't mind, so there is nothing stopping you from providing actual evidence for this particular accusation.

throw_xyzyz 7y ago

Then said woman apologies and blamed drugs and a 'tough personal time' for lashing out at free software: https://libreboot.org/news/unity.html https://libreboot.org/news/unity.html

quadrangle 7y ago
and, look at LibrePlanet mailing list archives and you'll see the same person is now a staunch defender of RMS and highly critical of people criticizing him now.

soulofmischief 7y ago

> Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. I'm sorry, but this isn't a prerequisite for working in the software industry. You are not allowed to vilify someone over having an opinion about gender, just like you shouldn't fire someone for having a different opinion on it than you. "Leah was at the time struggling with gender dysphoria and substance abuse. Since then, she has been managing these issues. She agrees that her behaviour was rash and is determined to find a unifying solution." The people involved have moved on. The internet, however, is still trying to sling mud where there is none in an embarrassing display of social lynching and lack of loyalty to people who have done so much for human freedom.

tingletech 7y ago
I don't know anything about the RMS incident -- but I work for a public university system in California, and last time I had the mandatory every-other-year sexual harassment prevention training, it said it was un-lawful for me not to use a person's identified pronouns.
- Hitton 7y ago
  I guess that it could be seen as employer discriminating on employee on basis of sex or something which could make the company liable, but on personal level First Amendment still applies and there is no way you could be prosecuted for that.
  - dekhn 7y ago
    https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/may/fired-for-refusing-to-use-a-students-preferred-pronoun-why-every-american-should-be-concerned https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/may/fired-for-refusing-... """We were referred to a statement released by the school's attorney, which says: "Mr. Vlaming insisted on treating a transgender student differently than other students in the classroom, singling out the student on the basis of gender identity. In addition, Mr. Vlaming refused to comply with administrators' directives to follow division policies. During the public hearing before the school board, Mr. Vlaming again stated that he would not comply with these directives. Accordingly, the school board voted unanimously to terminate his employment. """ The fired individual does not have the monetary resources to fight this in the courts.

dependenttypes 7y ago

> he outright fired a transgender woman from the FSF for reporting her transphobic coworker who kept harassing her Would you mind providing a citation for this? I am legitimately curious, Leah for example retracted their comments on the issue. > Not to mention his refusal to respect the pronouns of trans, queer, and nonbinary folks. Please elaborate. This is the first time that I hear of such an accusation. > See also https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.. https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133.... I don't see anything wrong there. What is wrong with believing that victimless crimes should be legal? Also, asking someone on a date is harassment now? What?

pseudalopex 7y ago
As far as I know, Stallman respects "he", "she", and a genderless pronoun he made up. He refuses to respect singular "they".[1] [1] https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  > he made up He says that he took it from "Marge Piercy's book Woman on the Edge of Time" > He refuses to respect singular "they". He says "As for \"they\", if you are plural by nature — for instance, if you are a colonial organism or a group mind, or if you wish to be known for having multiple personalities — I will use that plural pronoun to refer to you.", which seems fair to me.
  - pseudalopex 7y ago
    He made up "perse". Singular "they" is common English. Not respecting it seems unfair to me.
    - dependenttypes 7y ago
      Unfair to whom? And why do you think that it is unfair? Is it just because it is popular?