28 ms·

From what I've understood, this is just the straw that broke the camel's back with Stallman. He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT.

ericsoderstrom 7y ago
I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. The fact is, the reporting around the event that actually did get him fired was beyond awful and disingenuous. By throwing up your hands and saying "yeah maybe those articles were a crock of lies, but that's fine because he actually did do some shitty stuff before too" you're contributing to an environment in which it's that much harder to distinguish honest reporting from fabricated character assassination. I think this [0] comment from Reddit does a good job refuting the "straw that broke the camel's back" argument: """ Amazing how much damage dishonest media coverage can do, even though it's both trivial to prove their misquotes false and we now have an witness further supporting Stallman's original argument. Summary of events: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a co-founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Someone wrote a Medium blogpost called "Remove Richard Stallman" quoting the argument. Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was "entirely willing" (rather than pretending to be) and as "defending Epstein". Note the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so. Since then physicist Greg Benford, who was present at the time, has stated that she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down: > I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me. This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? We're supposed to consider a dead man a rapist for sex he didn't have because of something Epstein did without his knowledge, possibly even in a failed attempt to create blackmail material against him? Despite this, Stallman has now been pressured to resign not just from MIT but from the Free Software Foundation that he founded. Despite (and sometimes because of) his eccentricities, I think Stallman was a very valuable voice in free-software, particularly as someone whose dedication to it as an ideal helped counterbalance corporate influence and the like. But if some journalists decide he should be out and are willing to tell lies about it, then apparently that's enough for him to be pushed out. """ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer_scientist_richard_stallman_resigns_from/f0lo5c8/?st=k11qs2rm&sh=44869ce8 https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer...
- tutfbhuf 7y ago
  > I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that his previous unacceptable behavior has been tolerated. Pressure on him, should have been so much earlier.
  - skrebbel 7y ago
    Did you read the entire comment? If so, can you address the core argument instead of quoting a single line out of context?
  - Aqua 7y ago
    How come none of that came into light before the leak of his emails? This is quite curious, don't you think? I've read the emails and from the looks of it he just says that there's not enough evidence to condemn someone for their alleged misconduct. I'm very skeptical about all these "revelations", this entire thing appears to be media manipulation. I recommend the book "Trust me, I'm lying", it's eye-opening.
    - thomasz 7y ago
      It seems to have been pretty much public knowledge in the circles that interacted with RMS. It's just that nobody cared enough to act.
      - passwordreset 7y ago
        I have interacted with RMS. He stayed at a friend's house, and I went to one of his lectures. Though I'm not a friend of the man, I know that what you're saying was not true, at least during the time that me and my friends met with him. This type of rumor mongering is hurtful and should be opposed.
        lorenzhs 7y ago
        "He didn't harass women during the two days I interacted with him, therefore he has never done so" is not as strong a defense as you seem to think.
2muchcoffeeman 7y ago
Stallman never seemed like a regular guy to me. I’ve met people who are “neurally atypical” and they have weird/bad behaviour. There was even a case in Melbourne where a slightly mentally impaired man was accused of sexual harassment because he’d try and be friendly to everyone and it came off wrong. I’d like to think we’d have some amount of compassion for these people and help them function in society.
- intarga 7y ago
  Telling someone you're going to kill yourself if they don't date you is clearly just trying to be friendly. I too am autistic, and it does not excuse this behaviour. Yes people should have compassion and patience with neurodivergent people, and everyone has been with Stallman. This is not one incident, but a string of incidents that show an underlying pattern.
  - aortega 7y ago
    >Telling someone you're going to kill yourself if they don't date you is clearly just trying to be friendly. Exactly, it just looks like a joke, banter to lighten the situation. It all depends on context, that we don't have.
    - jdnenej 7y ago
      The person he told it to reported him so clearly it wasn't received as a joke.
      - fock 7y ago
        when did she report him? 40 years later? My memory is already fading for interactions just 5 years back, much more drunken interactions...
      - concordDance 7y ago
        Indeed, but that might just be them thinking suicide (or threats of suicide) shouldn't be joked about. People really should find and pass around a link to a full writeup of that event rather than relaying rumours.
aortega 7y ago
>He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. I also saw those accusations, but I didn't see any proof of the harassment except one girl that said Stallman asked her on a date. And bothering? you really think you can go for 60 years on this earth without bothering any person?
- smsm42 7y ago
  You forgot the most terrible accusation of all. He had a mattress in his office. Really, I've seen this fact listed among other examples of RMS misconduct.
  - aortega 7y ago
    Ah yes! the "Implications". For me, the implication of a mattress in his office are that he might sleep there. Any other implications are in the dirty mind of the accusers.
    - nullc 7y ago
      RMS slept in his office for some time, in all these decades no one made anything out of it other than 'wow, how dedicated and odd that fellow is'. It wasn't some secret. And suddenly it gets pulled out of context by people who admit to having never met him as proof of something vague but nefarious. wtf.
  - zby 7y ago
    I think the root of all of this is we use the same mental circuits when condemning sexual and hygienic misconduct. Someone called him creepy for publicly eating something from his foot - then in other circumstances the 'creepy' label was interpreted to be related to sex.
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      No, people have called him creepy for asking out MIT undergraduates and defending adults having sex with children.
kaoD 7y ago
I've never heard anything like this. Can you provide more information please?
- jacobush 7y ago
  I have YEARS ago, at least a decade. Nothing horrible, just the usual like ignoring questions from women or something like that. But enough to not make me surprised in the least to hear more like that.
- samstave 7y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...
  - Thorrez 7y ago
    I don't see where that article mentions that "[h]e's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT."
    - fock 7y ago
      * Thought police at work. This says bad things. Believe them. NOW * It's fascinating how this guy just posted the same unrelated link under two comments. Just like facebook trolls...
fock 7y ago
Said who? The basic accusation was that he was creepy (which is not really an objective problem, much less an offence...). This was illustrated by things like him having a matress in his office and him allegedly (and drunkenly) hitting on a student back in the 80s in a very bad way. If you consider that the "viral" posts, which apparently triggered this, contained a warning of the like "if minors read this, please turn away, you might be shocked at the idea of a 17y/o having sex with an adult", you generally get the spirit of the whole thing. This has nothing to do with equality and freedom anymore, it's just about creating an "ideal" society (probably with procreation happening only after getting blessed by a priest).
- samstave 7y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...
  - fock 7y ago
    yeah, I know why he was forced to resign, the creepiness only was the part spilling everything over. The US attitude to sexuality is apparently still stuck at the point, when the Mayflower landed in New England (at least for everything "heteronormative"). And that is definitively not a good thing...
- HaloZero 7y ago
  This medium article talks about a few people (though mostly anonymous). https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... April Glaser on Twitter specifically talks about accusations against him: https://twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1174093253433380864 https://twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1174093253433380864 Here's the reality though, every woman who steps up and admits publicly is probably going to get harassed. Some fuckheads on the internet are going to bother her and harass them. I imagine the # of public complaints is going to be pretty low.
  - 7y ago
thrwayxyz 7y ago
In a same world a reply like that would be taken to court and litigated for the slander that it is.
trudeau2 7y ago
For general levels of complaints, I would recommend waiting for sociopolitical progress. For the moment, I recommend we stick to just legal standards. (Such as if he drugged/raped someone, the way Cosby and Weinstein did.) What did he do, exactly?
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  > Weinstein Has he been convicted of something now?
lostjohnny 7y ago
> He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. No, he didn't. Thomas Lord who worked with him says > One remarkable thing about the FSF at that time, when we worked out of dinky spare offices on the campus of MIT, was the degree of participation by women. In the tiny society that was then the FSF, women were more prominent than I had seen in Silicon Valley, or acadamia prior. The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle in and around the organization was feminized and all the stronger for it. https://archive.is/7qepC#selection-1243.1-1359.221 https://archive.is/7qepC#selection-1243.1-1359.221
- sigzero 7y ago
  Yes, he did. There are other articles mentioned here that prove it.
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > Yes, he did. There are other articles mentioned here that prove it. Let's see them then. I'm sure there are real testimonies of real people.
- jellicle 7y ago
  > No, he didn't. Of course he did (and does). It's well known. Here's HN from 11 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 I have personally read, in the last few weeks, over a dozen statements by women who were driven out of FSF by Stallman. I don't even move in those circles. There must be many more who don't feel like speaking up and getting harassed by all the neckbeards. Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies https://miro.medium.com/max/4080/1*lDSkAjF1958TpEafxuJsLg.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/4080/1*lDSkAjF1958TpEafxuJsLg.jp...
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > Of course he did (and does). It's well known. Here's HN from 11 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 And I've personally spoken with 4 of them that say the exact opposite. Drop some name please, accusations need proof. > I don't even move in those circles I do. > Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies Old joke, stupid sign, nothing severe, it's been there forever together with the sticker of Amnesty International (if you haven't noticed), nobody complained for ages, suddenly high paid engineers that without GCC wouldn't have the same high paid job complain that RMS makes them feel uncomfortable, even though they "don't even move in those circles" Let's be serious, please don't make me quote Roger Murtaugh.
h91wka 7y ago
> He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. In the ideal world any claim like this would be backed up with evidence.
- phosphophyllite 7y ago
  Some say this world is perfect, you just not part of it…
- pseudalopex 7y ago
  First person accounts are evidence. Some have witnesses.
  - h91wka 7y ago
    What I mean is that if you post that person X did Y on HN (or elsewhere), you attach links that prove this fact. In other words, [citation needed]

ericsoderstrom 7y ago

I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. The fact is, the reporting around the event that actually did get him fired was beyond awful and disingenuous. By throwing up your hands and saying "yeah maybe those articles were a crock of lies, but that's fine because he actually did do some shitty stuff before too" you're contributing to an environment in which it's that much harder to distinguish honest reporting from fabricated character assassination. I think this [0] comment from Reddit does a good job refuting the "straw that broke the camel's back" argument: """ Amazing how much damage dishonest media coverage can do, even though it's both trivial to prove their misquotes false and we now have an witness further supporting Stallman's original argument. Summary of events: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a co-founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Someone wrote a Medium blogpost called "Remove Richard Stallman" quoting the argument. Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was "entirely willing" (rather than pretending to be) and as "defending Epstein". Note the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so. Since then physicist Greg Benford, who was present at the time, has stated that she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down: > I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me. This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? We're supposed to consider a dead man a rapist for sex he didn't have because of something Epstein did without his knowledge, possibly even in a failed attempt to create blackmail material against him? Despite this, Stallman has now been pressured to resign not just from MIT but from the Free Software Foundation that he founded. Despite (and sometimes because of) his eccentricities, I think Stallman was a very valuable voice in free-software, particularly as someone whose dedication to it as an ideal helped counterbalance corporate influence and the like. But if some journalists decide he should be out and are willing to tell lies about it, then apparently that's enough for him to be pushed out. """ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer_scientist_richard_stallman_resigns_from/f0lo5c8/?st=k11qs2rm&sh=44869ce8 https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/d59efr/computer...

tutfbhuf 7y ago
> I keep seeing this response, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. If Stallman's past behavior was unacceptable, then he should have been fired for that. Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that his previous unacceptable behavior has been tolerated. Pressure on him, should have been so much earlier.
- skrebbel 7y ago
  Did you read the entire comment? If so, can you address the core argument instead of quoting a single line out of context?
- Aqua 7y ago
  How come none of that came into light before the leak of his emails? This is quite curious, don't you think? I've read the emails and from the looks of it he just says that there's not enough evidence to condemn someone for their alleged misconduct. I'm very skeptical about all these "revelations", this entire thing appears to be media manipulation. I recommend the book "Trust me, I'm lying", it's eye-opening.
  - thomasz 7y ago
    It seems to have been pretty much public knowledge in the circles that interacted with RMS. It's just that nobody cared enough to act.
    - passwordreset 7y ago
      I have interacted with RMS. He stayed at a friend's house, and I went to one of his lectures. Though I'm not a friend of the man, I know that what you're saying was not true, at least during the time that me and my friends met with him. This type of rumor mongering is hurtful and should be opposed.
      - lorenzhs 7y ago
        "He didn't harass women during the two days I interacted with him, therefore he has never done so" is not as strong a defense as you seem to think.

2muchcoffeeman 7y ago

Stallman never seemed like a regular guy to me. I’ve met people who are “neurally atypical” and they have weird/bad behaviour. There was even a case in Melbourne where a slightly mentally impaired man was accused of sexual harassment because he’d try and be friendly to everyone and it came off wrong. I’d like to think we’d have some amount of compassion for these people and help them function in society.

intarga 7y ago
Telling someone you're going to kill yourself if they don't date you is clearly just trying to be friendly. I too am autistic, and it does not excuse this behaviour. Yes people should have compassion and patience with neurodivergent people, and everyone has been with Stallman. This is not one incident, but a string of incidents that show an underlying pattern.
- aortega 7y ago
  >Telling someone you're going to kill yourself if they don't date you is clearly just trying to be friendly. Exactly, it just looks like a joke, banter to lighten the situation. It all depends on context, that we don't have.
  - jdnenej 7y ago
    The person he told it to reported him so clearly it wasn't received as a joke.
    - fock 7y ago
      when did she report him? 40 years later? My memory is already fading for interactions just 5 years back, much more drunken interactions...
    - concordDance 7y ago
      Indeed, but that might just be them thinking suicide (or threats of suicide) shouldn't be joked about. People really should find and pass around a link to a full writeup of that event rather than relaying rumours.

aortega 7y ago

>He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. I also saw those accusations, but I didn't see any proof of the harassment except one girl that said Stallman asked her on a date. And bothering? you really think you can go for 60 years on this earth without bothering any person?

smsm42 7y ago
You forgot the most terrible accusation of all. He had a mattress in his office. Really, I've seen this fact listed among other examples of RMS misconduct.
- aortega 7y ago
  Ah yes! the "Implications". For me, the implication of a mattress in his office are that he might sleep there. Any other implications are in the dirty mind of the accusers.
  - nullc 7y ago
    RMS slept in his office for some time, in all these decades no one made anything out of it other than 'wow, how dedicated and odd that fellow is'. It wasn't some secret. And suddenly it gets pulled out of context by people who admit to having never met him as proof of something vague but nefarious. wtf.
- zby 7y ago
  I think the root of all of this is we use the same mental circuits when condemning sexual and hygienic misconduct. Someone called him creepy for publicly eating something from his foot - then in other circumstances the 'creepy' label was interpreted to be related to sex.
  - pseudalopex 7y ago
    No, people have called him creepy for asking out MIT undergraduates and defending adults having sex with children.

kaoD 7y ago

I've never heard anything like this. Can you provide more information please?

jacobush 7y ago
I have YEARS ago, at least a decade. Nothing horrible, just the usual like ignoring questions from women or something like that. But enough to not make me surprised in the least to hear more like that.
samstave 7y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...
- Thorrez 7y ago
  I don't see where that article mentions that "[h]e's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT."
  - fock 7y ago
    * Thought police at work. This says bad things. Believe them. NOW * It's fascinating how this guy just posted the same unrelated link under two comments. Just like facebook trolls...

fock 7y ago

Said who? The basic accusation was that he was creepy (which is not really an objective problem, much less an offence...). This was illustrated by things like him having a matress in his office and him allegedly (and drunkenly) hitting on a student back in the 80s in a very bad way. If you consider that the "viral" posts, which apparently triggered this, contained a warning of the like "if minors read this, please turn away, you might be shocked at the idea of a 17y/o having sex with an adult", you generally get the spirit of the whole thing. This has nothing to do with equality and freedom anymore, it's just about creating an "ideal" society (probably with procreation happening only after getting blessed by a priest).

samstave 7y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...
- fock 7y ago
  yeah, I know why he was forced to resign, the creepiness only was the part spilling everything over. The US attitude to sexuality is apparently still stuck at the point, when the Mayflower landed in New England (at least for everything "heteronormative"). And that is definitively not a good thing...
HaloZero 7y ago
This medium article talks about a few people (though mostly anonymous). https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... April Glaser on Twitter specifically talks about accusations against him: https://twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1174093253433380864 https://twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1174093253433380864 Here's the reality though, every woman who steps up and admits publicly is probably going to get harassed. Some fuckheads on the internet are going to bother her and harass them. I imagine the # of public complaints is going to be pretty low.
- 7y ago

thrwayxyz 7y ago

In a same world a reply like that would be taken to court and litigated for the slander that it is.

trudeau2 7y ago

For general levels of complaints, I would recommend waiting for sociopolitical progress. For the moment, I recommend we stick to just legal standards. (Such as if he drugged/raped someone, the way Cosby and Weinstein did.) What did he do, exactly?

hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
> Weinstein Has he been convicted of something now?

lostjohnny 7y ago

> He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. No, he didn't. Thomas Lord who worked with him says > One remarkable thing about the FSF at that time, when we worked out of dinky spare offices on the campus of MIT, was the degree of participation by women. In the tiny society that was then the FSF, women were more prominent than I had seen in Silicon Valley, or acadamia prior. The general culture of inclusiveness and tolerance that RMS fostered meant that, at least when I was there alongside Bushnell, that social circle in and around the organization was feminized and all the stronger for it. https://archive.is/7qepC#selection-1243.1-1359.221 https://archive.is/7qepC#selection-1243.1-1359.221

sigzero 7y ago
Yes, he did. There are other articles mentioned here that prove it.
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > Yes, he did. There are other articles mentioned here that prove it. Let's see them then. I'm sure there are real testimonies of real people.
jellicle 7y ago
> No, he didn't. Of course he did (and does). It's well known. Here's HN from 11 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 I have personally read, in the last few weeks, over a dozen statements by women who were driven out of FSF by Stallman. I don't even move in those circles. There must be many more who don't feel like speaking up and getting harassed by all the neckbeards. Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies https://miro.medium.com/max/4080/1*lDSkAjF1958TpEafxuJsLg.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/4080/1*lDSkAjF1958TpEafxuJsLg.jp...
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > Of course he did (and does). It's well known. Here's HN from 11 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20979343 And I've personally spoken with 4 of them that say the exact opposite. Drop some name please, accusations need proof. > I don't even move in those circles I do. > Richard Stallman, Knight for Justice - Also Hot Ladies Old joke, stupid sign, nothing severe, it's been there forever together with the sticker of Amnesty International (if you haven't noticed), nobody complained for ages, suddenly high paid engineers that without GCC wouldn't have the same high paid job complain that RMS makes them feel uncomfortable, even though they "don't even move in those circles" Let's be serious, please don't make me quote Roger Murtaugh.

h91wka 7y ago

> He's harassed and bothered dozens of women in and outside of MIT. In the ideal world any claim like this would be backed up with evidence.

phosphophyllite 7y ago
Some say this world is perfect, you just not part of it…
pseudalopex 7y ago
First person accounts are evidence. Some have witnesses.
- h91wka 7y ago
  What I mean is that if you post that person X did Y on HN (or elsewhere), you attach links that prove this fact. In other words, [citation needed]