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Owner of a Tesla model 3. Summon is the canary in the coal mine. As in, unless it shows signs of life then the fairy tale of self driving cars is just that, a

Owner of a Tesla model 3. Summon is the canary in the coal mine. As in, unless it shows signs of life then the fairy tale of self driving cars is just that, a fairy tale. If they cannot get a safe an accurate summon to work why should I ever believe my car will ever drive on its own. Do I believe it will come, not for years. My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign, maybe version 10 will help on that. I doubt it, v10 is all about what it can do while parked. I am so damn tired of them adding features for when I AM NOT DRIVING MY CAR. As in, I don't need Hulu or Netflix or such, this is all part of the disconnect at Tesla. They have sold even themselves that autonomous driving is RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER that they completely ignore improving quality of life features while driving, namely their blue tooth support for smart phones is poor, ten year old poor. It is illegal to use my phone physically while driving but if I want to change the play list my car is getting from my phone I have to resort to using my phone. This is a common feature on most cars today but Tesla never has had it. when pressed we get sycophants defending the decision because autonomous driving is coming "real" soon. Even more laughable, they never delivered on promised voice commands. I can tell the car where to go but heaven help me if I want it to change radio stations or select a new play list from my phone. Even voice control for Slacker is nothing more than a glorified Siri look up a song and hope it gets the right one. love my car but am not impressed much with their direction when it comes to adding features to the car. They almost got automatic wipers working consistently but automatic high beams is as spastic as a Jack Russel Terrier. ps: when asked, would I buy the car again? No. I do not care for their direction in software; namely focusing on what it can do while I am not driving it. I want a car that responds to me and makes tasks easier, not one that focuses on stuff to do while parked and charging, if its charging I certainly am not going to sit around in it. I already have been sitting for three plus hours driving it likely

Ambroos 7y ago
Well, I would hope the engineers working on Netflix and Caraoke aren't the ones who are working on self-driving features. They seem like different enough things that they could be worked on simultaneously. Full self-driving is a long time away anyway, and while we wait for that, features like this help cope with not having full self-driving and differentiating the car in the market.
- skywhopper 7y ago
  But they are spending money and time on the engineers who are adding those features to the car, and on testing and integrating those with the rest of the software. Is that the best way to be spending their money?
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    Integrating that game was probably 'free', because I bet the game developer paid to have Tesla distribute their game as advertising. That's why you only get the first level.
    - xedeon 7y ago
      Exactly. For example, it was announced during E3 that the the game developers (StudioMDHR) from Cuphead helped port it. Also: https://twitter.com/StudioMDHR/status/1177305158470029314 https://twitter.com/StudioMDHR/status/1177305158470029314
  - bobsil1 7y ago
    Since it opens up a whole new differentiation front, they'd be remiss not to. No one else has broad apps or consistent OTA updates.
- xvector 7y ago
  I don’t agree with this. Software engineers are strong enough generalists that the people working on Cuphead could work on something actually useful.
binaryblitz 7y ago
I rented a model three for a week long trip, and while I understand some of your frustrations, a lot of them are not the norm from my experience. Both speed limit sign detection, and self driving on the freeway worked flawlessly for me. I guess YMMV.
- xvector 7y ago
  A lot of them are the norm. These are the most common complaints amongst Tesla users and they’ve gone unaddressed for far too long.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    I've been a Tesla owner since 2015 and I frequent pretty much all of the online forums and I will tell you that those are not the norms.
  - revscat 7y ago
    How did you come to this conclusion? I’m an owner, and frequent various forums, and have never had these complaints, and can not recall seeing them. That’s not to say that they don’t exist, but I question your assertions here.
    - xedeon 7y ago
      Same here! I visit many Tesla related forums and subreddit pretty much daily and also do not typically see these so called "complaints". They pop up once in a while but not to the extent many people (often times from people don't even own one) claim.
- CrazyStat 7y ago
  Teslas do not currently detect speed limit signs at all. They work off a database which gets updated from time to time. Several streets near my home have had speed limits changed since I got my Tesla, and it sometimes takes months for the database to catch up.
- RealWorldPolice 7y ago
leesec 7y ago
Also owner of a TM3. Best car I've ever owned by a lot. People sure do get mad about Blutooth. Also, at least they're able to have a 'software direction'. Not aware of any other manufacturer who provides anywhere near this level of OTA upgrades. And obviously the autopilot team is a different one than the people installing games. Chill.
- rainyMammoth 7y ago
  Here is what I don't understand: you paid a small fortune for your car and if this was any other car from any other manufacturer you would react like your parent comment. But because it is a Tesla you are dismissing all the issues and sell it as the best car ever. This wouldn't fly with any other car. If you spent 50k$ on a Audi with poor quality you would probably complain about it. It is a pattern I see with nearly all the other TM3 owners that dismiss every single issue. Really trying to understand but what is so different with a Tesla? Is it the Hype factor? The feeling to be in a religious group?
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    I’m not a Tesla owner but it does seem to me that buying in to the company that has single handedly changed the landscape of electric vehicles is a pretty exciting notion. I’d be happier to have a vehicle built on seemingly better principles and support the company even if they’re not perfect. But then I use Linux even though it’s difficult at times because what I am using is more important than any specific flaws it has.
    - rainyMammoth 7y ago
      It occurs to me that I would equate Mac to Tesla and Linux to a car in which you get full access to the engine and are able to change any piece you want. Tesla is the opposite of Linux philosophy.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
semi-extrinsic 7y ago
Never drove the car. But I must say it's funny bordering on tragicomic when they mention use cases for the Summon as e.g. "when dealing with a fussy child", then go on to say in the very next sentence "Those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times." Sure, when I'm dealing with a fussy kid in a parking lot, I can monitor the car over there and its surroundings at all times. That's what I usually do, forget about watching the kid.
slg 7y ago
This update is about more than just improvements while parked and it at least partially addresses two of your complaints. Spotify integration has been added so you can manage that from the screen instead of your phone. Voice commands have supposedly been improved, but obviously it remains to be seen exactly how effective that will be.
CalChris 7y ago
Owner of a 2015 AP1 Tesla Model S. > My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign My Model S can and it has AP1. It's very good at this. Has it ever made a mistake. Not that I'm aware and I've checked a lot. I'll see a speed limit sign and as I pass it, the speed limit sign on the drivers console will update.
- xvector 7y ago
  AP is not capable of identifying speed limit signs. At least, modern AP cannot. To identify speed limits, Tesla AP pulls map information, which is often inaccurate outside cities.
  - makomk 7y ago
    Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet.
    - xedeon 7y ago
      > Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet. It's more of Tesla can't because because MobileEye owns the patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080137908A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080137908A1/en
      - rimliu 7y ago
        My Honda Civic has speed limit sign recognition. And it is possible to set cruise-control to limit the speed accordingly. Or are we talking about something more complicated?
        xedeon 7y ago
        Your Honda Civic has it because they licensed the tech from MobileEye in 2014. Tesla AP1 cars also have it, but when Tesla dropped MobileEye in favor of their own system, they can't use it anymore.
yunyu 7y ago
Tesla is the only major autonomous vehicle manufacturer which does not use lidar for perception/localization. As such, they are substantially behind the rest of the AV industry when it comes to these areas.
- revscat 7y ago
  This view about the inevitability of LIDAR seems to become increasingly anachronistic as time goes on. I have autopilot. Two nights ago it drove me from the entrance ramp to the exit ramp for my destination, approximately 30 miles, and I didn’t have to intervene once. The route involved three different highways, two overpasses, requisite lane changes, and even a brief stint through a traffic jam where it had to merge in heavy traffic. It was completely successful. I fail to see how that is by any definition “behind”. I would be happy to replicate this and video it if you are skeptical.
  - rainyMammoth 7y ago
    Everyone agrees that you can do 99.99% of the driving without a LIDAR. That's exactly what you did yesterday in easy conditions (Highway driving is the easiest environment by far). The issue if you want to go to FULL self driving is that you need to go to 99.99999% of reliability which a lot of experts agree you will not be able to do without Lidar. Here is the issue: Video cameras will work properly most of the time but once in a while the exact distance will be wrongly calculated as can be seen with all the Teslas crashing in trucks lately. A LIDAR gives you a way higher confidence on the distance of objects.
    - revscat 7y ago
      Which arguable, and regardless is not the point under discussion. GP claimed that Tesla is behind. This is factually untrue.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      LIDAR gives you precision distance measurements. But LIDAR helps you little, if anything, with object classification. And object classification, the understanding what the car sees, is the big challenge with self driving. Yes, with semi-intelligent systems it gives a head-start, as you can reasonably easy detect obstacles, but it does not help in understanding how to react to the detected obstacles. So I would consider LIDAR rather a system which at the current state of development helps with collision avoidance rather than with true self-driving.
travelhead 7y ago
You make good points. I just bought a Model S and the autopilot needs A LOT of work. By focusing on adding Netflix and more games, it makes it seem like Tesla does not care as much about autopilot (besides Summon).
jfoster 7y ago
If manufacturers were to listen to this type of opinion, autonomous vehicles would never happen. You presume to know more about Tesla's capabilities than Tesla do. Their track record is one of proving critics wrong. Not always perfectly on time, by their own admission. If you look at everything they've done so far I think it's foolish to presume they won't be delivering on FSD.
sharadov 7y ago
So what would you rather buy?
zamfi 7y ago
> namely their blue tooth support for smart phones is poor, ten year old poor. It is illegal to use my phone physically while driving but if I want to change the play list my car is getting from my phone I have to resort to using my phone. This is a common feature on most cars today but Tesla never has had it. when pressed we get sycophants defending the decision because autonomous driving is coming "real" soon. This is perhaps not the best example to use in this thread as V10 apparently includes this...
kwhitefoot 7y ago
> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign They still haven't fixed that? Works almost perfectly in my 2015 Model S with version 1 autopilot.
chris11 7y ago
> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign. Does it pick up any speed limit signs? I have a newer Corolla and the camera in that car will pick up speed limit signs. It's detection wouldn't be good enough for autopilot, but it is helpful.
webXL 7y ago
Haven't they added some notable features for when you're charging your car, though? I rarely charge outside my garage, but the times I have used a Supercharger, there sure are a lot of people just sitting in their cars reading something on a tiny screen. I think this update is targeted towards them. Heck, the sound is so good IMHO that it might be the best place to watch certain movies, especially when the kids are trying to sleep! ps: You have some pretty high standards for driver-assist technology. What did you drive before and what would you get if you had to choose today?

Ambroos 7y ago

Well, I would hope the engineers working on Netflix and Caraoke aren't the ones who are working on self-driving features. They seem like different enough things that they could be worked on simultaneously. Full self-driving is a long time away anyway, and while we wait for that, features like this help cope with not having full self-driving and differentiating the car in the market.

skywhopper 7y ago
But they are spending money and time on the engineers who are adding those features to the car, and on testing and integrating those with the rest of the software. Is that the best way to be spending their money?
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Integrating that game was probably 'free', because I bet the game developer paid to have Tesla distribute their game as advertising. That's why you only get the first level.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    Exactly. For example, it was announced during E3 that the the game developers (StudioMDHR) from Cuphead helped port it. Also: https://twitter.com/StudioMDHR/status/1177305158470029314 https://twitter.com/StudioMDHR/status/1177305158470029314
- bobsil1 7y ago
  Since it opens up a whole new differentiation front, they'd be remiss not to. No one else has broad apps or consistent OTA updates.
xvector 7y ago
I don’t agree with this. Software engineers are strong enough generalists that the people working on Cuphead could work on something actually useful.

binaryblitz 7y ago

I rented a model three for a week long trip, and while I understand some of your frustrations, a lot of them are not the norm from my experience. Both speed limit sign detection, and self driving on the freeway worked flawlessly for me. I guess YMMV.

xvector 7y ago
A lot of them are the norm. These are the most common complaints amongst Tesla users and they’ve gone unaddressed for far too long.
- xedeon 7y ago
  I've been a Tesla owner since 2015 and I frequent pretty much all of the online forums and I will tell you that those are not the norms.
- revscat 7y ago
  How did you come to this conclusion? I’m an owner, and frequent various forums, and have never had these complaints, and can not recall seeing them. That’s not to say that they don’t exist, but I question your assertions here.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    Same here! I visit many Tesla related forums and subreddit pretty much daily and also do not typically see these so called "complaints". They pop up once in a while but not to the extent many people (often times from people don't even own one) claim.
CrazyStat 7y ago
Teslas do not currently detect speed limit signs at all. They work off a database which gets updated from time to time. Several streets near my home have had speed limits changed since I got my Tesla, and it sometimes takes months for the database to catch up.
RealWorldPolice 7y ago

leesec 7y ago

Also owner of a TM3. Best car I've ever owned by a lot. People sure do get mad about Blutooth. Also, at least they're able to have a 'software direction'. Not aware of any other manufacturer who provides anywhere near this level of OTA upgrades. And obviously the autopilot team is a different one than the people installing games. Chill.

rainyMammoth 7y ago
Here is what I don't understand: you paid a small fortune for your car and if this was any other car from any other manufacturer you would react like your parent comment. But because it is a Tesla you are dismissing all the issues and sell it as the best car ever. This wouldn't fly with any other car. If you spent 50k$ on a Audi with poor quality you would probably complain about it. It is a pattern I see with nearly all the other TM3 owners that dismiss every single issue. Really trying to understand but what is so different with a Tesla? Is it the Hype factor? The feeling to be in a religious group?
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  I’m not a Tesla owner but it does seem to me that buying in to the company that has single handedly changed the landscape of electric vehicles is a pretty exciting notion. I’d be happier to have a vehicle built on seemingly better principles and support the company even if they’re not perfect. But then I use Linux even though it’s difficult at times because what I am using is more important than any specific flaws it has.
  - rainyMammoth 7y ago
    It occurs to me that I would equate Mac to Tesla and Linux to a car in which you get full access to the engine and are able to change any piece you want. Tesla is the opposite of Linux philosophy.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

semi-extrinsic 7y ago

Never drove the car. But I must say it's funny bordering on tragicomic when they mention use cases for the Summon as e.g. "when dealing with a fussy child", then go on to say in the very next sentence "Those using Smart Summon must remain responsible for the car and monitor it and its surroundings at all times." Sure, when I'm dealing with a fussy kid in a parking lot, I can monitor the car over there and its surroundings at all times. That's what I usually do, forget about watching the kid.

slg 7y ago

This update is about more than just improvements while parked and it at least partially addresses two of your complaints. Spotify integration has been added so you can manage that from the screen instead of your phone. Voice commands have supposedly been improved, but obviously it remains to be seen exactly how effective that will be.

CalChris 7y ago

Owner of a 2015 AP1 Tesla Model S. > My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign My Model S can and it has AP1. It's very good at this. Has it ever made a mistake. Not that I'm aware and I've checked a lot. I'll see a speed limit sign and as I pass it, the speed limit sign on the drivers console will update.

xvector 7y ago
AP is not capable of identifying speed limit signs. At least, modern AP cannot. To identify speed limits, Tesla AP pulls map information, which is often inaccurate outside cities.
- makomk 7y ago
  Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    > Apparently identifying speed limit signs is AP1-only, because it relied on Mobileye's technology to do that and Tesla still haven't implemented their own replacement for that feature yet. It's more of Tesla can't because because MobileEye owns the patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080137908A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080137908A1/en
    - rimliu 7y ago
      My Honda Civic has speed limit sign recognition. And it is possible to set cruise-control to limit the speed accordingly. Or are we talking about something more complicated?
      - xedeon 7y ago
        Your Honda Civic has it because they licensed the tech from MobileEye in 2014. Tesla AP1 cars also have it, but when Tesla dropped MobileEye in favor of their own system, they can't use it anymore.

yunyu 7y ago

Tesla is the only major autonomous vehicle manufacturer which does not use lidar for perception/localization. As such, they are substantially behind the rest of the AV industry when it comes to these areas.

revscat 7y ago
This view about the inevitability of LIDAR seems to become increasingly anachronistic as time goes on. I have autopilot. Two nights ago it drove me from the entrance ramp to the exit ramp for my destination, approximately 30 miles, and I didn’t have to intervene once. The route involved three different highways, two overpasses, requisite lane changes, and even a brief stint through a traffic jam where it had to merge in heavy traffic. It was completely successful. I fail to see how that is by any definition “behind”. I would be happy to replicate this and video it if you are skeptical.
- rainyMammoth 7y ago
  Everyone agrees that you can do 99.99% of the driving without a LIDAR. That's exactly what you did yesterday in easy conditions (Highway driving is the easiest environment by far). The issue if you want to go to FULL self driving is that you need to go to 99.99999% of reliability which a lot of experts agree you will not be able to do without Lidar. Here is the issue: Video cameras will work properly most of the time but once in a while the exact distance will be wrongly calculated as can be seen with all the Teslas crashing in trucks lately. A LIDAR gives you a way higher confidence on the distance of objects.
  - revscat 7y ago
    Which arguable, and regardless is not the point under discussion. GP claimed that Tesla is behind. This is factually untrue.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    LIDAR gives you precision distance measurements. But LIDAR helps you little, if anything, with object classification. And object classification, the understanding what the car sees, is the big challenge with self driving. Yes, with semi-intelligent systems it gives a head-start, as you can reasonably easy detect obstacles, but it does not help in understanding how to react to the detected obstacles. So I would consider LIDAR rather a system which at the current state of development helps with collision avoidance rather than with true self-driving.

travelhead 7y ago

You make good points. I just bought a Model S and the autopilot needs A LOT of work. By focusing on adding Netflix and more games, it makes it seem like Tesla does not care as much about autopilot (besides Summon).

jfoster 7y ago

If manufacturers were to listen to this type of opinion, autonomous vehicles would never happen. You presume to know more about Tesla's capabilities than Tesla do. Their track record is one of proving critics wrong. Not always perfectly on time, by their own admission. If you look at everything they've done so far I think it's foolish to presume they won't be delivering on FSD.

sharadov 7y ago

So what would you rather buy?

zamfi 7y ago

> namely their blue tooth support for smart phones is poor, ten year old poor. It is illegal to use my phone physically while driving but if I want to change the play list my car is getting from my phone I have to resort to using my phone. This is a common feature on most cars today but Tesla never has had it. when pressed we get sycophants defending the decision because autonomous driving is coming "real" soon. This is perhaps not the best example to use in this thread as V10 apparently includes this...

kwhitefoot 7y ago

> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign They still haven't fixed that? Works almost perfectly in my 2015 Model S with version 1 autopilot.

chris11 7y ago

> My car cannot even identify a speed limit sign. Does it pick up any speed limit signs? I have a newer Corolla and the camera in that car will pick up speed limit signs. It's detection wouldn't be good enough for autopilot, but it is helpful.

webXL 7y ago

Haven't they added some notable features for when you're charging your car, though? I rarely charge outside my garage, but the times I have used a Supercharger, there sure are a lot of people just sitting in their cars reading something on a tiny screen. I think this update is targeted towards them. Heck, the sound is so good IMHO that it might be the best place to watch certain movies, especially when the kids are trying to sleep! ps: You have some pretty high standards for driver-assist technology. What did you drive before and what would you get if you had to choose today?