6 ms·

>The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. It's cultural. Their PhD advisors tre

by Donald 7y ago

>The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. It's cultural. Their PhD advisors treated them the same way. A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
raverbashing 7y ago
> A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia. Your definition is painfully on point. And the perks of "getting into academia" are getting smaller with each day. But hey, you get to have those 3 letters next to your name and probably can ask for a higher salary, that is if you don't go back into the academic machine and the hunger games of chasing grants/contracts and eventually tenure (but it is my impression funding a successful startup is easier than getting tenured today)
- eyeundersand 7y ago
  Your last impression, if true, would come as a great surprise to me. I would check but I'm literally in a Econ PhD class right now.
  - tlarkworthy 7y ago
    My professor with commercial experience said roughly the same thing: academia is harder and more competitive than the commercial world. Now I have experience of both, he was right. Your collegues have roles and help you in commercial world. Everyone is against each other in academia, and the admin staff know your just a temp so your problems are not worth the effort.
    - nostrademons 7y ago
      My brother-in-law is a tenure-track professor (though not tenured yet) in cancer research, I'm working on getting a startup funded. I would agree with that impression. There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia, and you have more flexibility to pursue new ones that open up than you do to change your line of research if it doesn't pan out. Both professions require an enormous amount of work, but you have more control as a startup founder, and are less subject to the whims of politics, grants, and scientific reality. Hard science involves an amazing amount of risk and hard work to manage that risk, moreso than startups do. The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. The latter means that you have a job for life; the former means you don't need a job for life.
      - andrepd 7y ago
        >There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia >The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. Massive [citation needed] on both these claims. "But my brother-in-law" is not evidence. It's not at all obvious that there are more startup markets than tenure positions. Also, founding a successful startup is largely a matter of luck, and being in the right place at the right time.
        nostrademons 7y ago
        If you want data: As of 2016, academic institutions hired 21,511 full-time, tenure-track professors [1]. Your odds of getting tenure given that you're in a tenure-track position vary by institution, but seem to range from about 75% at elite private institutions to 90% at state schools [2]. Figure about 18,000 professors were hired into positions that will eventually grant them tenure. AngelList lists about 30,827 companies at the Seed or Series A/B/C stage [3]. Crunchbase has 33,577 funding rounds that occurred within 2016 [4]. The former stat has issues in that it includes funding rounds over a broad time period, and the latter potentially has issues with multiple funding rounds for the same company happening; however, given their general consistency and the existence of funded companies that do not appear in AngelList nor Crunchbase, 30,000 companies funded per year seems about right. The average tenured professor salary varies heavily by field, but the Chronicle of Higher Ed reports it at $104820 [5], Glassdoor at $70385 [6], PayScale at $71993 [7], Indeed at $66921 [8]. There were 12,688 mergers & acquisitions in 2018 [9], the vast majority of which were for undisclosed amounts (companies do not have to disclose the transaction if it's for < $75M). Given the distribution of the ones that are disclosed, it's a good bet that most of those are for between $1M-20M (I've heard $1M/engineer as the going rate for aquihires, where the team succeeds in delivering a product but the product fails in the marketplace). This is still roughly 100x what the tenured professor makes though. [1] https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/10112018%20Data%20Snapshot%20Tenure.pdf https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/10112018%20Data%20S... [2] https://dynamicecology.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/dont-worry-too-much-about-whether-youll-get-tenure-because-you-probably-will/ https://dynamicecology.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/dont-worry-t... [3] https://angel.co/companies?stage[]=Series+A&stage[]=Seed&stage[]=Series+B&stage[]=Series+C https://angel.co/companies?stage[]=Series+A&stage[]=Seed&sta... [4] https://www.crunchbase.com/search/funding_rounds/a416e3bdb172fd52fe210b50d8779c49 https://www.crunchbase.com/search/funding_rounds/a416e3bdb17... [5] https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Much-Did-Professors-Earn/243085 https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Much-Did-Professors-Ea... [6] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tenured-professor-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tenured-professor-salary-... [7] https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Tenure_Professor/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Tenure_Professor/Sa... [8] https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Professor-Salaries https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Professor-Salaries [9] https://www.statista.com/statistics/245977/number-of-munda-deals-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/245977/number-of-munda-d...
    - scottlegrand2 7y ago
      As a nuclear physicist who left academia for Disney once told me: "Academia... The competition is so intense because the stakes are so low..."
      - jacobolus 7y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law
WhompingWindows 7y ago
I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. I naively thought that sounded good. I didn't realize that my advisor took over 4 years to do it herself. Nor did I realize that she was drastically over-committing herself on time, and she dropped me as a student just 1 year later because she didn't have time. Just a blatantly misleading and false advising process, I wasted 2 years due to that. The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  You could always say F it and get a job in the industry. It's 1000 times better especially when your research is clearly not on the cutting edge and you end up comtemplating life choices because what you're doing are basically useless to the world, and you're only doing it because some funds decided to throw money on it. At least that's how it is for people whose primary research method is coding, such an easy exit. The powerpoint making variety have it harder though.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  > I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. In Germany PhD is almost always done after an MS and the PhD usually takes 4-6 years depending on the group.
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  > The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and I realize my situation was odd, but... there's always a trump card: you can drop out. I get that for international students it's not always so simple (losing your student visa, having to go home) and can be a very hard choice. My supervisor and my department occasionally tried to push for things that I believed were ridiculous, and the threat of dropping out seemed to work reasonably well to push back on that. My understanding is that a supervisor having a low completion rate is a black mark that can hurt them, especially if they're chasing tenure. I didn't pull this out like a petulant child stomping their feet when they didn't like their chores, but rather when things were getting stupid. Tony: "This is totally unreasonable and the timeline doesn't work for me." Supervisor: "This is how it must be. There's no other option." Tony: "I could drop out and continue on with my life." Supervisor: "Now wait a minute, let's see what we can do to make this work..."
DataWorker 7y ago
The reason this behavior occurs is because people compromise themselves by jumping through hoops to get degrees. Meanwhile, universities have become fixated on producing credentials and nurturing their endowments rather than producing knowledge. Ponzi schemes fail when they run out of suckers. With the federal government giving hundreds of thousands in free money to round up new suckers it seems unlikely to fail anytime soon. Perhaps corporations will fill the void. I’m not hopeful.
tlb 7y ago
My PhD adviser treated us well. He could be bluntly critical of our work ("Which of these conclusions do you actually believe?" became a catchphrase) but he treated us fine as people. If you think a hazing ritual is required, as a kind of filter for who wants to be a professor most, you can set high standards for the work while still treating people with respect.

by Donald 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 7y ago

> A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia. Your definition is painfully on point. And the perks of "getting into academia" are getting smaller with each day. But hey, you get to have those 3 letters next to your name and probably can ask for a higher salary, that is if you don't go back into the academic machine and the hunger games of chasing grants/contracts and eventually tenure (but it is my impression funding a successful startup is easier than getting tenured today)

eyeundersand 7y ago
Your last impression, if true, would come as a great surprise to me. I would check but I'm literally in a Econ PhD class right now.
- tlarkworthy 7y ago
  My professor with commercial experience said roughly the same thing: academia is harder and more competitive than the commercial world. Now I have experience of both, he was right. Your collegues have roles and help you in commercial world. Everyone is against each other in academia, and the admin staff know your just a temp so your problems are not worth the effort.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    My brother-in-law is a tenure-track professor (though not tenured yet) in cancer research, I'm working on getting a startup funded. I would agree with that impression. There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia, and you have more flexibility to pursue new ones that open up than you do to change your line of research if it doesn't pan out. Both professions require an enormous amount of work, but you have more control as a startup founder, and are less subject to the whims of politics, grants, and scientific reality. Hard science involves an amazing amount of risk and hard work to manage that risk, moreso than startups do. The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. The latter means that you have a job for life; the former means you don't need a job for life.
    - andrepd 7y ago
      >There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia >The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. Massive [citation needed] on both these claims. "But my brother-in-law" is not evidence. It's not at all obvious that there are more startup markets than tenure positions. Also, founding a successful startup is largely a matter of luck, and being in the right place at the right time.
      - nostrademons 7y ago
        If you want data: As of 2016, academic institutions hired 21,511 full-time, tenure-track professors [1]. Your odds of getting tenure given that you're in a tenure-track position vary by institution, but seem to range from about 75% at elite private institutions to 90% at state schools [2]. Figure about 18,000 professors were hired into positions that will eventually grant them tenure. AngelList lists about 30,827 companies at the Seed or Series A/B/C stage [3]. Crunchbase has 33,577 funding rounds that occurred within 2016 [4]. The former stat has issues in that it includes funding rounds over a broad time period, and the latter potentially has issues with multiple funding rounds for the same company happening; however, given their general consistency and the existence of funded companies that do not appear in AngelList nor Crunchbase, 30,000 companies funded per year seems about right. The average tenured professor salary varies heavily by field, but the Chronicle of Higher Ed reports it at $104820 [5], Glassdoor at $70385 [6], PayScale at $71993 [7], Indeed at $66921 [8]. There were 12,688 mergers & acquisitions in 2018 [9], the vast majority of which were for undisclosed amounts (companies do not have to disclose the transaction if it's for < $75M). Given the distribution of the ones that are disclosed, it's a good bet that most of those are for between $1M-20M (I've heard $1M/engineer as the going rate for aquihires, where the team succeeds in delivering a product but the product fails in the marketplace). This is still roughly 100x what the tenured professor makes though. [1] https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/10112018%20Data%20Snapshot%20Tenure.pdf https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/10112018%20Data%20S... [2] https://dynamicecology.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/dont-worry-too-much-about-whether-youll-get-tenure-because-you-probably-will/ https://dynamicecology.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/dont-worry-t... [3] https://angel.co/companies?stage[]=Series+A&stage[]=Seed&stage[]=Series+B&stage[]=Series+C https://angel.co/companies?stage[]=Series+A&stage[]=Seed&sta... [4] https://www.crunchbase.com/search/funding_rounds/a416e3bdb172fd52fe210b50d8779c49 https://www.crunchbase.com/search/funding_rounds/a416e3bdb17... [5] https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Much-Did-Professors-Earn/243085 https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-Much-Did-Professors-Ea... [6] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tenured-professor-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tenured-professor-salary-... [7] https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Tenure_Professor/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Tenure_Professor/Sa... [8] https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Professor-Salaries https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Professor-Salaries [9] https://www.statista.com/statistics/245977/number-of-munda-deals-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/245977/number-of-munda-d...
  - scottlegrand2 7y ago
    As a nuclear physicist who left academia for Disney once told me: "Academia... The competition is so intense because the stakes are so low..."
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law

WhompingWindows 7y ago

I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. I naively thought that sounded good. I didn't realize that my advisor took over 4 years to do it herself. Nor did I realize that she was drastically over-committing herself on time, and she dropped me as a student just 1 year later because she didn't have time. Just a blatantly misleading and false advising process, I wasted 2 years due to that. The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel.

Aperocky 7y ago
You could always say F it and get a job in the industry. It's 1000 times better especially when your research is clearly not on the cutting edge and you end up comtemplating life choices because what you're doing are basically useless to the world, and you're only doing it because some funds decided to throw money on it. At least that's how it is for people whose primary research method is coding, such an easy exit. The powerpoint making variety have it harder though.
bonoboTP 7y ago
> I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. In Germany PhD is almost always done after an MS and the PhD usually takes 4-6 years depending on the group.
tonyarkles 7y ago
> The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and I realize my situation was odd, but... there's always a trump card: you can drop out. I get that for international students it's not always so simple (losing your student visa, having to go home) and can be a very hard choice. My supervisor and my department occasionally tried to push for things that I believed were ridiculous, and the threat of dropping out seemed to work reasonably well to push back on that. My understanding is that a supervisor having a low completion rate is a black mark that can hurt them, especially if they're chasing tenure. I didn't pull this out like a petulant child stomping their feet when they didn't like their chores, but rather when things were getting stupid. Tony: "This is totally unreasonable and the timeline doesn't work for me." Supervisor: "This is how it must be. There's no other option." Tony: "I could drop out and continue on with my life." Supervisor: "Now wait a minute, let's see what we can do to make this work..."

DataWorker 7y ago

The reason this behavior occurs is because people compromise themselves by jumping through hoops to get degrees. Meanwhile, universities have become fixated on producing credentials and nurturing their endowments rather than producing knowledge. Ponzi schemes fail when they run out of suckers. With the federal government giving hundreds of thousands in free money to round up new suckers it seems unlikely to fail anytime soon. Perhaps corporations will fill the void. I’m not hopeful.

tlb 7y ago

My PhD adviser treated us well. He could be bluntly critical of our work ("Which of these conclusions do you actually believe?" became a catchphrase) but he treated us fine as people. If you think a hazing ritual is required, as a kind of filter for who wants to be a professor most, you can set high standards for the work while still treating people with respect.