8 ms·

So I am a machine learning researcher who moved to a FAANG as a research scientist after graduation. My salary is 10x against the grad student stipend. That doe

So I am a machine learning researcher who moved to a FAANG as a research scientist after graduation. My salary is 10x against the grad student stipend. That does not even account for the free food, the healthcare, and other perks. However, I have not adjusted my lifestyle so it does not feel real. The thing is, even though having 1000x the resources compared to university, that does not really make me happier about the work specifically. It makes some things easier and other things harder. No, what I really feel is that at work I am not actually treated like a servant any more but like a person. I don't have to work weekends and nights any more. I can take vacations and won't be flooded with emails every.single.day during holidays. I don't have extra unpaid responsibilities that I have zero recourse against. The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. Even though ostensibly trying to keep us, it felt more like squeezing out as much as they could.

Donald 7y ago
>The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. It's cultural. Their PhD advisors treated them the same way. A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- raverbashing 7y ago
  > A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia. Your definition is painfully on point. And the perks of "getting into academia" are getting smaller with each day. But hey, you get to have those 3 letters next to your name and probably can ask for a higher salary, that is if you don't go back into the academic machine and the hunger games of chasing grants/contracts and eventually tenure (but it is my impression funding a successful startup is easier than getting tenured today)
  - eyeundersand 7y ago
    Your last impression, if true, would come as a great surprise to me. I would check but I'm literally in a Econ PhD class right now.
    - tlarkworthy 7y ago
      My professor with commercial experience said roughly the same thing: academia is harder and more competitive than the commercial world. Now I have experience of both, he was right. Your collegues have roles and help you in commercial world. Everyone is against each other in academia, and the admin staff know your just a temp so your problems are not worth the effort.
      - nostrademons 7y ago
        My brother-in-law is a tenure-track professor (though not tenured yet) in cancer research, I'm working on getting a startup funded. I would agree with that impression. There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia, and you have more flexibility to pursue new ones that open up than you do to change your line of research if it doesn't pan out. Both professions require an enormous amount of work, but you have more control as a startup founder, and are less subject to the whims of politics, grants, and scientific reality. Hard science involves an amazing amount of risk and hard work to manage that risk, moreso than startups do. The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. The latter means that you have a job for life; the former means you don't need a job for life.
        andrepd 7y ago
        >There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia >The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. Massive [citation needed] on both these claims. "But my brother-in-law" is not evidence. It's not at all obvious that there are more startup markets than tenure positions. Also, founding a successful startup is largely a matter of luck, and being in the right place at the right time.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. I naively thought that sounded good. I didn't realize that my advisor took over 4 years to do it herself. Nor did I realize that she was drastically over-committing herself on time, and she dropped me as a student just 1 year later because she didn't have time. Just a blatantly misleading and false advising process, I wasted 2 years due to that. The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel.
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    You could always say F it and get a job in the industry. It's 1000 times better especially when your research is clearly not on the cutting edge and you end up comtemplating life choices because what you're doing are basically useless to the world, and you're only doing it because some funds decided to throw money on it. At least that's how it is for people whose primary research method is coding, such an easy exit. The powerpoint making variety have it harder though.
  - bonoboTP 7y ago
    > I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. In Germany PhD is almost always done after an MS and the PhD usually takes 4-6 years depending on the group.
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    > The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and I realize my situation was odd, but... there's always a trump card: you can drop out. I get that for international students it's not always so simple (losing your student visa, having to go home) and can be a very hard choice. My supervisor and my department occasionally tried to push for things that I believed were ridiculous, and the threat of dropping out seemed to work reasonably well to push back on that. My understanding is that a supervisor having a low completion rate is a black mark that can hurt them, especially if they're chasing tenure. I didn't pull this out like a petulant child stomping their feet when they didn't like their chores, but rather when things were getting stupid. Tony: "This is totally unreasonable and the timeline doesn't work for me." Supervisor: "This is how it must be. There's no other option." Tony: "I could drop out and continue on with my life." Supervisor: "Now wait a minute, let's see what we can do to make this work..."
- DataWorker 7y ago
  The reason this behavior occurs is because people compromise themselves by jumping through hoops to get degrees. Meanwhile, universities have become fixated on producing credentials and nurturing their endowments rather than producing knowledge. Ponzi schemes fail when they run out of suckers. With the federal government giving hundreds of thousands in free money to round up new suckers it seems unlikely to fail anytime soon. Perhaps corporations will fill the void. I’m not hopeful.
- tlb 7y ago
  My PhD adviser treated us well. He could be bluntly critical of our work ("Which of these conclusions do you actually believe?" became a catchphrase) but he treated us fine as people. If you think a hazing ritual is required, as a kind of filter for who wants to be a professor most, you can set high standards for the work while still treating people with respect.
echelon 7y ago
If you don't mind my asking, what multiple of $100k is your salary? Is ML still much more highly paid than standard engineering?
- readhn 7y ago
  grad student stipend can be as low as 20-30K a year, depending on a school.
- high_derivative 7y ago
  The salaries at FAANGS are level-driven, so I refer to levels.fyi. I think the perk of being a research scientist is more freedom, building prototypes, not having to do support/oncalls in general, just being able to hand off that type of work.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  It's also that as someone coming in with a PhD you will start halfway up the career ladder. My first job was a 'senior'.
- throwawayjava 7y ago
  3x to 4x depending on col. Grad student stipends are only 30k, sometimes lower ML isn't much higher paid than standard engineering, but new PhDs from top schools who would've been competitive faculty applicants tend to get jobs at top paying firms and enter toward the top of the non-executive ranks.
- varelse 7y ago
  Fully expecting utter disbelief and skepticism, the best information I have indicates the compensation cap at FB is ~$3M. I have personally made up to $1.5M in a year doing AI work. If I had a higher threshold for pedigree BS in tech, I could have made ~$2M this year (but I don't and I have run out of you-know-whats to give about that personality type because life is too short for working with them IMO). In contrast, the NYT reported (previously) non-profit OpenAI's CEO made $2M annually from the get-go. I'm sure it's more now that it's OpenAI LP. And then there's Anthony Lewandowski's $120M comp at Waymo that somehow just wasn't enough for him. I can't relate to that. Before AI, the most I had ever made in a year was $800K based on a long stock options play for a public company I knew was undervalued (and I was there for its rock bottom). And in academia, the most I ever made was $30K as a post-doc and $13K as a grad student before that. That anyone wonders why non-tenured sorts flee is mind-blowing. In contrast, I've seen ruthless tenured types pull 7 figures with multiple labs at multiple institutions and lucrative consulting contracts with private industry and the military. All whilst cheating on their spouses or sleeping with their students, sometimes both.
h2odragon 7y ago
Unwilling abusers. they know they're treting you bad, they feel its wrong, but its their job! and so they have to justify that behavior to themselves. The victims must deserve it! Anyone so subhuman as to tolerate these conditions and abuses is evidently in need of punishment for being such a shank.
- ldng 7y ago
  There is no unwilling. "It's the job" is no excuse.
  - h2odragon 7y ago
    Yes. Someone explained it to me that way once and the term stuck, it could be expressed better. "reluctant?"
xiaolingxiao 7y ago
Saw this first hand at universities too. grad school has a lot of exploitation going on, and no one manages the professors.
bachmeier 7y ago
"The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this." You can drop "knowing the perks of industry". There's no excuse for doing that under any circumstances, even if there is no industry alternative. I see this in many fields where grad students work in labs and are funded by grants. I wish universities would clean it up. There's simply no excuse for it. There's nothing about being in grad school that makes this behavior okay.
anonymousDan 7y ago
Boohoo. What exactly is your complaint? You did a PhD, learned advanced skills that made you more attractive to a company, and now you are reaping the benefit. Do you think you should have been given the same salary as a PhD? Come on.
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please not post personally nasty comments to HN? We're trying for a bit better than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
electricslpnsld 7y ago
> No, what I really feel is that at work I am not actually treated like a servant any more but like a person. My experience in FAANG research, outside of the pay > 100x multiplier, has been very different! In grad school we could work from anywhere at anytime, there was no requirement to be glued to a desk 14 hours a day and having to respond to emails on Friday nights or weekends or risk a bad performance review from your manager, no dystopian open office space, unlimited conference travel flexibility, etc. I actually kind of miss grad school despite having made 30K a year as a PhD student.
- andrepd 7y ago
  So you're making 3 million a year? :)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- dbancajas 7y ago
  > rad school we could work from anywhere at anytime, there was no requirement to be glued to a desk 14 hours a day and having to respond to emails on Friday nights or weekends or risk a bad pe which Univ gives 30K/year PhD? My top pay was 18K/year in my last year.
  - albutr 7y ago
    I think it's pretty typical, at least in physics. Every offer I had/that I have heard of was around 30k, I've only heard of one that was around ~24k iirc
    - frickinLasers 7y ago
      Yep, STEM majors do relatively well.
- newen 7y ago
  Yep, my experience was similar to yours and I miss grad school due to that flexibility. I don't know where else to find such flexibility while getting paid decently.
RJhKTcQMgG 7y ago
As a note, it is possible to be in a Ph.D. program and not be an employee of the University, at least in the US. Being on a grad student stipend is usually a choice. Advisors are treating you like that because you allow yourself to be treated like that. Yes, I have a PhD. Yes, I paid my own graduate school tuition. Yes, I had a successful career in ML.
- high_derivative 7y ago
  I used the term grad stipend loosely, I was on various scholarships that meant I was not technically an employee or dependent on funding from my adviser. Did not make a difference at all. Where you are right is that I did allow myself to be treated like that. I could have quite any time, of course.
  - RJhKTcQMgG 7y ago
    Sorry you felt being abused or quitting were the only options. Strikes me as a false dichotomy, but, hey, don't know the particulars of your unique situation. But for others out there: your skill are highly valuable, others will pay for them, your advisor needs people with your skills, you have leverage. At least, try speaking up for yourself. Hell, organize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_student_employee_unionization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_student_employee_unio...
    - nkingsy 7y ago
      I stuck it out trying to fix bad culture for a year last year. My mom had good advice: it’s really hard to change an established culture, impossible without support from the top. I learned a lot being a squeaky wheel, but I didn’t change the culture in any meaningful way beyond getting us a lunch room.
dahart 7y ago
> The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. I think you had a bad advisor(s)! They’re not all like that. Maybe the group you were in was under a lot of funding pressure or something, that can cause bad behavior.
- plg 7y ago
  +1 : my grad school experience was not like this. I'm sorry you went through this. For me grad school was the best time ever. Pursuing science while being protected and guided by a world expert, and doing so without grown-up responsibilities like getting grants, doing admin, etc. It was so. much. fun.
  - sseagull 7y ago
    I think postdoc is even better. Bit better pay and academic freedom. You are still somewhat shielded from responsibilities, but you can take that jump if you want to take the initiative. But no thesis hanging over your head :)
marmaduke 7y ago
> No, what I really feel is that at work I am not actually treated like a servant any more Yessssss this. Even as a more permanent lab member (staff) I don't have clear defined role outside of, do what no one else wants to. It's not just the students!
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
> I have not adjusted my lifestyle That's one gentle way of describing conspicuous consumption.
KKKKkkkk1 7y ago
The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. Even though ostensibly trying to keep us, it felt more like squeezing out as much as they could. But people in FAANG do work nights and weekends and it's totally not unusual to be assigned sudden bitchwork by your manager and have no recourse against it.
- tudelo 7y ago
  This is not the case on every team...
- wmp56 7y ago
  The recourse is to move to another team or company.
patientplatypus 7y ago
At a guess, are you a foreign student? Most post graduate degrees are being gotten by foreigners, because that’s how the economics works as the education ponzi scheme collapses. The sweet spot, in terms of ROI, is to get a bachelors degree and go immediately into industry. The student shows they are competent enough to succeed on their own at a school environment where they have a nonzero probability of failure. For foreigners they stay in school for as long as possible so their green card can process. It’s not worth the risk of working for a company where they can be fired immediately and sent home, and it’s likewise not worth the cost of an h1b to companies for an undergrad. Since we graduate more phds every year than academia can absorb into teaching positions the green card process is effectively subsidizing postgrad programs, where the product is Indians and Chinese (primarily) who are desperate to get a high paying job in industry. Look up the numbers if you’d like. At a societal level this is disastrous as it means that we have many foreign born who disproportionately hold the highest paying positions in society. Prosperity gospel and American exceptionalism aside this just leads to mass discontent and nationalism. It’s hard to argue they are wrong - why should a native born American allow a foreigner to take the highest paid jobs if given a choice? This leads (among other ways the country ignores and marginalizes poor native born citizens) to the election of people like Donald Trump. This is not to say foreigners are bad - they often come from hard places where life isn’t easy. The real villains in this story are the aristocrats of the education empire. “More money for me and fuck everyone else,” seems like a common refrain these days.
- wbl 7y ago
  Know nothingism redux. Maybe those native born Americans should have made cars that didn't suck.
- wolco 7y ago
  This just devalues the phd because the smartest native minds are skipping them and successful images of leaders without them are displgayed everywhere which stops everyone aside from foreign students from obtaining them. I can't think of one successful tech leader with one. I'm sure there are many but they stopped being included when they discuss successes.
jartelt 7y ago
For anyone considering where to go to graduate school... One's PhD experience is highly dependent on the university one attends and especially the professor that one works under. Each lab has a different culture and each professor treats students differently. It also matters a lot whether you are on fellowship or not (someone funded directly from a professor's grant is easier to bully/exploit). Just like you should speak to employees at a company before joining it to get an idea of culture and work/life balance, prospective graduate students should speak to current graduate students to get an idea of life at a given lab. Most graduate students are openly aware of which professors are known for treating students like indentured servants and which are known for being hands off and generous with research funds. If you are trying to pick a university/lab, definitely go to visits and speak to 4th/5th year grad students (preferably over a beer or two). Typically by the end of their PhD, graduate students are willing to tell you the truth about the different labs/professors. Also, remember that is often totally ok to switch labs within 1-2 years. Yes, it may set you back some on your progress, but it can be much better than being miserable for 5 years.
IMAYousaf 7y ago
Hello. I'd like to share one slightly tangential anecdote and observation regarding this. I have a friend who was in a PhD in Physics program at CalTech. Absolute genius of a kid, and was surrounded by other people who are incredibly smart. My friend was always a very ambitious person, and wanted to join Wall Street as a quant after completing his PhD because he was interested in maximizing his income, and found the problems presented in finance/markets more compelling than those found in academia. When he intimated this to people in the Department, they looked at him as if he had suddenly grown tentacles, because it's unbelievable to them that anyone would want to do something other than academia. This is a stark contrast to friends I have at places like Stanford, where no one quite frankly cares. This doesn't touch on any alleged bad behavior or stress or pressures or experiences that people have while in grad school, but I believe that the cultural forces at institutions govern how people feel pretty strongly. That isn't a profound observation or even revealing, but I just thought that people would like to see a quick human anecdote to maybe relate to people going through this.
dbancajas 7y ago
Tell us your salary?

Donald 7y ago

>The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. It's cultural. Their PhD advisors treated them the same way. A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
raverbashing 7y ago
> A PhD is effectively a hazing ritual required to break into academia. Your definition is painfully on point. And the perks of "getting into academia" are getting smaller with each day. But hey, you get to have those 3 letters next to your name and probably can ask for a higher salary, that is if you don't go back into the academic machine and the hunger games of chasing grants/contracts and eventually tenure (but it is my impression funding a successful startup is easier than getting tenured today)
- eyeundersand 7y ago
  Your last impression, if true, would come as a great surprise to me. I would check but I'm literally in a Econ PhD class right now.
  - tlarkworthy 7y ago
    My professor with commercial experience said roughly the same thing: academia is harder and more competitive than the commercial world. Now I have experience of both, he was right. Your collegues have roles and help you in commercial world. Everyone is against each other in academia, and the admin staff know your just a temp so your problems are not worth the effort.
    - nostrademons 7y ago
      My brother-in-law is a tenure-track professor (though not tenured yet) in cancer research, I'm working on getting a startup funded. I would agree with that impression. There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia, and you have more flexibility to pursue new ones that open up than you do to change your line of research if it doesn't pan out. Both professions require an enormous amount of work, but you have more control as a startup founder, and are less subject to the whims of politics, grants, and scientific reality. Hard science involves an amazing amount of risk and hard work to manage that risk, moreso than startups do. The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. The latter means that you have a job for life; the former means you don't need a job for life.
      - andrepd 7y ago
        >There are more fundable startup markets than there are tenured positions available in academia >The rewards for a successful startup are about 2 orders of magnitude higher than the rewards for tenure, too. Massive [citation needed] on both these claims. "But my brother-in-law" is not evidence. It's not at all obvious that there are more startup markets than tenure positions. Also, founding a successful startup is largely a matter of luck, and being in the right place at the right time.
WhompingWindows 7y ago
I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. I naively thought that sounded good. I didn't realize that my advisor took over 4 years to do it herself. Nor did I realize that she was drastically over-committing herself on time, and she dropped me as a student just 1 year later because she didn't have time. Just a blatantly misleading and false advising process, I wasted 2 years due to that. The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  You could always say F it and get a job in the industry. It's 1000 times better especially when your research is clearly not on the cutting edge and you end up comtemplating life choices because what you're doing are basically useless to the world, and you're only doing it because some funds decided to throw money on it. At least that's how it is for people whose primary research method is coding, such an easy exit. The powerpoint making variety have it harder though.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  > I entered an MS program, where my two advisors told me I could get a PhD in just 3 years, vs 2 years for the MS. In Germany PhD is almost always done after an MS and the PhD usually takes 4-6 years depending on the group.
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  > The power your advisors wield over you is terrifying in graduate school. You are severely underpaid AND they have you over a barrel. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and I realize my situation was odd, but... there's always a trump card: you can drop out. I get that for international students it's not always so simple (losing your student visa, having to go home) and can be a very hard choice. My supervisor and my department occasionally tried to push for things that I believed were ridiculous, and the threat of dropping out seemed to work reasonably well to push back on that. My understanding is that a supervisor having a low completion rate is a black mark that can hurt them, especially if they're chasing tenure. I didn't pull this out like a petulant child stomping their feet when they didn't like their chores, but rather when things were getting stupid. Tony: "This is totally unreasonable and the timeline doesn't work for me." Supervisor: "This is how it must be. There's no other option." Tony: "I could drop out and continue on with my life." Supervisor: "Now wait a minute, let's see what we can do to make this work..."
DataWorker 7y ago
The reason this behavior occurs is because people compromise themselves by jumping through hoops to get degrees. Meanwhile, universities have become fixated on producing credentials and nurturing their endowments rather than producing knowledge. Ponzi schemes fail when they run out of suckers. With the federal government giving hundreds of thousands in free money to round up new suckers it seems unlikely to fail anytime soon. Perhaps corporations will fill the void. I’m not hopeful.
tlb 7y ago
My PhD adviser treated us well. He could be bluntly critical of our work ("Which of these conclusions do you actually believe?" became a catchphrase) but he treated us fine as people. If you think a hazing ritual is required, as a kind of filter for who wants to be a professor most, you can set high standards for the work while still treating people with respect.

echelon 7y ago

If you don't mind my asking, what multiple of $100k is your salary? Is ML still much more highly paid than standard engineering?

readhn 7y ago
grad student stipend can be as low as 20-30K a year, depending on a school.
high_derivative 7y ago
The salaries at FAANGS are level-driven, so I refer to levels.fyi. I think the perk of being a research scientist is more freedom, building prototypes, not having to do support/oncalls in general, just being able to hand off that type of work.
chrisseaton 7y ago
It's also that as someone coming in with a PhD you will start halfway up the career ladder. My first job was a 'senior'.
throwawayjava 7y ago
3x to 4x depending on col. Grad student stipends are only 30k, sometimes lower ML isn't much higher paid than standard engineering, but new PhDs from top schools who would've been competitive faculty applicants tend to get jobs at top paying firms and enter toward the top of the non-executive ranks.
varelse 7y ago
Fully expecting utter disbelief and skepticism, the best information I have indicates the compensation cap at FB is ~$3M. I have personally made up to $1.5M in a year doing AI work. If I had a higher threshold for pedigree BS in tech, I could have made ~$2M this year (but I don't and I have run out of you-know-whats to give about that personality type because life is too short for working with them IMO). In contrast, the NYT reported (previously) non-profit OpenAI's CEO made $2M annually from the get-go. I'm sure it's more now that it's OpenAI LP. And then there's Anthony Lewandowski's $120M comp at Waymo that somehow just wasn't enough for him. I can't relate to that. Before AI, the most I had ever made in a year was $800K based on a long stock options play for a public company I knew was undervalued (and I was there for its rock bottom). And in academia, the most I ever made was $30K as a post-doc and $13K as a grad student before that. That anyone wonders why non-tenured sorts flee is mind-blowing. In contrast, I've seen ruthless tenured types pull 7 figures with multiple labs at multiple institutions and lucrative consulting contracts with private industry and the military. All whilst cheating on their spouses or sleeping with their students, sometimes both.

h2odragon 7y ago

Unwilling abusers. they know they're treting you bad, they feel its wrong, but its their job! and so they have to justify that behavior to themselves. The victims must deserve it! Anyone so subhuman as to tolerate these conditions and abuses is evidently in need of punishment for being such a shank.

ldng 7y ago
There is no unwilling. "It's the job" is no excuse.
- h2odragon 7y ago
  Yes. Someone explained it to me that way once and the term stuck, it could be expressed better. "reluctant?"

xiaolingxiao 7y ago

Saw this first hand at universities too. grad school has a lot of exploitation going on, and no one manages the professors.

bachmeier 7y ago

"The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this." You can drop "knowing the perks of industry". There's no excuse for doing that under any circumstances, even if there is no industry alternative. I see this in many fields where grad students work in labs and are funded by grants. I wish universities would clean it up. There's simply no excuse for it. There's nothing about being in grad school that makes this behavior okay.

anonymousDan 7y ago

Boohoo. What exactly is your complaint? You did a PhD, learned advanced skills that made you more attractive to a company, and now you are reaping the benefit. Do you think you should have been given the same salary as a PhD? Come on.

dang 7y ago
Would you please not post personally nasty comments to HN? We're trying for a bit better than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

electricslpnsld 7y ago

> No, what I really feel is that at work I am not actually treated like a servant any more but like a person. My experience in FAANG research, outside of the pay > 100x multiplier, has been very different! In grad school we could work from anywhere at anytime, there was no requirement to be glued to a desk 14 hours a day and having to respond to emails on Friday nights or weekends or risk a bad performance review from your manager, no dystopian open office space, unlimited conference travel flexibility, etc. I actually kind of miss grad school despite having made 30K a year as a PhD student.

andrepd 7y ago
So you're making 3 million a year? :)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dbancajas 7y ago
> rad school we could work from anywhere at anytime, there was no requirement to be glued to a desk 14 hours a day and having to respond to emails on Friday nights or weekends or risk a bad pe which Univ gives 30K/year PhD? My top pay was 18K/year in my last year.
- albutr 7y ago
  I think it's pretty typical, at least in physics. Every offer I had/that I have heard of was around 30k, I've only heard of one that was around ~24k iirc
  - frickinLasers 7y ago
    Yep, STEM majors do relatively well.
newen 7y ago
Yep, my experience was similar to yours and I miss grad school due to that flexibility. I don't know where else to find such flexibility while getting paid decently.

RJhKTcQMgG 7y ago

As a note, it is possible to be in a Ph.D. program and not be an employee of the University, at least in the US. Being on a grad student stipend is usually a choice. Advisors are treating you like that because you allow yourself to be treated like that. Yes, I have a PhD. Yes, I paid my own graduate school tuition. Yes, I had a successful career in ML.

high_derivative 7y ago
I used the term grad stipend loosely, I was on various scholarships that meant I was not technically an employee or dependent on funding from my adviser. Did not make a difference at all. Where you are right is that I did allow myself to be treated like that. I could have quite any time, of course.
- RJhKTcQMgG 7y ago
  Sorry you felt being abused or quitting were the only options. Strikes me as a false dichotomy, but, hey, don't know the particulars of your unique situation. But for others out there: your skill are highly valuable, others will pay for them, your advisor needs people with your skills, you have leverage. At least, try speaking up for yourself. Hell, organize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_student_employee_unionization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_student_employee_unio...
  - nkingsy 7y ago
    I stuck it out trying to fix bad culture for a year last year. My mom had good advice: it’s really hard to change an established culture, impossible without support from the top. I learned a lot being a squeaky wheel, but I didn’t change the culture in any meaningful way beyond getting us a lunch room.

dahart 7y ago

> The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. I think you had a bad advisor(s)! They’re not all like that. Maybe the group you were in was under a lot of funding pressure or something, that can cause bad behavior.

plg 7y ago
+1 : my grad school experience was not like this. I'm sorry you went through this. For me grad school was the best time ever. Pursuing science while being protected and guided by a world expert, and doing so without grown-up responsibilities like getting grants, doing admin, etc. It was so. much. fun.
- sseagull 7y ago
  I think postdoc is even better. Bit better pay and academic freedom. You are still somewhat shielded from responsibilities, but you can take that jump if you want to take the initiative. But no thesis hanging over your head :)

marmaduke 7y ago

> No, what I really feel is that at work I am not actually treated like a servant any more Yessssss this. Even as a more permanent lab member (staff) I don't have clear defined role outside of, do what no one else wants to. It's not just the students!

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

> I have not adjusted my lifestyle That's one gentle way of describing conspicuous consumption.

KKKKkkkk1 7y ago

The thing that I just cannot stop wondering is, why, knowing the perks of industry, advisers still treated us like this. Even though ostensibly trying to keep us, it felt more like squeezing out as much as they could. But people in FAANG do work nights and weekends and it's totally not unusual to be assigned sudden bitchwork by your manager and have no recourse against it.

tudelo 7y ago
This is not the case on every team...
wmp56 7y ago
The recourse is to move to another team or company.

patientplatypus 7y ago

At a guess, are you a foreign student? Most post graduate degrees are being gotten by foreigners, because that’s how the economics works as the education ponzi scheme collapses. The sweet spot, in terms of ROI, is to get a bachelors degree and go immediately into industry. The student shows they are competent enough to succeed on their own at a school environment where they have a nonzero probability of failure. For foreigners they stay in school for as long as possible so their green card can process. It’s not worth the risk of working for a company where they can be fired immediately and sent home, and it’s likewise not worth the cost of an h1b to companies for an undergrad. Since we graduate more phds every year than academia can absorb into teaching positions the green card process is effectively subsidizing postgrad programs, where the product is Indians and Chinese (primarily) who are desperate to get a high paying job in industry. Look up the numbers if you’d like. At a societal level this is disastrous as it means that we have many foreign born who disproportionately hold the highest paying positions in society. Prosperity gospel and American exceptionalism aside this just leads to mass discontent and nationalism. It’s hard to argue they are wrong - why should a native born American allow a foreigner to take the highest paid jobs if given a choice? This leads (among other ways the country ignores and marginalizes poor native born citizens) to the election of people like Donald Trump. This is not to say foreigners are bad - they often come from hard places where life isn’t easy. The real villains in this story are the aristocrats of the education empire. “More money for me and fuck everyone else,” seems like a common refrain these days.

wbl 7y ago
Know nothingism redux. Maybe those native born Americans should have made cars that didn't suck.
wolco 7y ago
This just devalues the phd because the smartest native minds are skipping them and successful images of leaders without them are displgayed everywhere which stops everyone aside from foreign students from obtaining them. I can't think of one successful tech leader with one. I'm sure there are many but they stopped being included when they discuss successes.

jartelt 7y ago

For anyone considering where to go to graduate school... One's PhD experience is highly dependent on the university one attends and especially the professor that one works under. Each lab has a different culture and each professor treats students differently. It also matters a lot whether you are on fellowship or not (someone funded directly from a professor's grant is easier to bully/exploit). Just like you should speak to employees at a company before joining it to get an idea of culture and work/life balance, prospective graduate students should speak to current graduate students to get an idea of life at a given lab. Most graduate students are openly aware of which professors are known for treating students like indentured servants and which are known for being hands off and generous with research funds. If you are trying to pick a university/lab, definitely go to visits and speak to 4th/5th year grad students (preferably over a beer or two). Typically by the end of their PhD, graduate students are willing to tell you the truth about the different labs/professors. Also, remember that is often totally ok to switch labs within 1-2 years. Yes, it may set you back some on your progress, but it can be much better than being miserable for 5 years.

IMAYousaf 7y ago

Hello. I'd like to share one slightly tangential anecdote and observation regarding this. I have a friend who was in a PhD in Physics program at CalTech. Absolute genius of a kid, and was surrounded by other people who are incredibly smart. My friend was always a very ambitious person, and wanted to join Wall Street as a quant after completing his PhD because he was interested in maximizing his income, and found the problems presented in finance/markets more compelling than those found in academia. When he intimated this to people in the Department, they looked at him as if he had suddenly grown tentacles, because it's unbelievable to them that anyone would want to do something other than academia. This is a stark contrast to friends I have at places like Stanford, where no one quite frankly cares. This doesn't touch on any alleged bad behavior or stress or pressures or experiences that people have while in grad school, but I believe that the cultural forces at institutions govern how people feel pretty strongly. That isn't a profound observation or even revealing, but I just thought that people would like to see a quick human anecdote to maybe relate to people going through this.

dbancajas 7y ago

Tell us your salary?