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At least 70 dogs have engaged in barking. Jury still out on if water is wet. Seriously though, who doesn't expect that their government will attempt to cast i

by pharke 7y ago

At least 70 dogs have engaged in barking. Jury still out on if water is wet. Seriously though, who doesn't expect that their government will attempt to cast itself in the best light and smear its enemies? Propaganda has been around since before the dawn of mass media. There is always a cultural myth of our group being the chosen people and having the correct answers to how life should be lived and resources allocated. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it inspires people and creates stronger bonds between otherwise unrelated individuals. We just need to reign in the negative shit-talking is all. Focus on the positive aspects. Healthy competition between countries as with people is generally positive.

zaphirplane 7y ago
The article is about illegal actions or unethical pressure in mostly non democratic countries ( don’t know about Guatemala) I expect a prime minister or president to resign in democratic countries for those actions if they knew about it That is very far from spin, conflicting results in complex policy modeling.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Sure, the source is biased, but at least they noticed when this happened: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-counte... Here's the press release from Sen. Portman himself: https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-signs-portman-murphy-counter-propaganda-bill-law https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/presi...
tyleo 7y ago
I agree that this is the expected behavior of government. Governments are run by people after all and reflect their own strengths and deficiencies. I think it’s always a bad thing though. Modern governments are so powerful, their actions impact millions. I like your point that each generation has a myth about “being the chosen people”. I think we stand to make the same mistakes as our ancestors, it’s just the impact of those mistakes are now widespread.
justaguyhere 7y ago
Propaganda has been around since before the dawn of mass media True, but what is different this time is the cost and reach of propaganda. It is a lot cheaper, easier and faster to send emails, post on FB/Twitter, throw a website up... etc compared to 40-50 years (or even 30) ago when you had to use newspapers and television. What is even more horrific is you can tailor these message down to a individual person
- roenxi 7y ago
  When was the alternate age when people had access to and revered the truth? That is a trick question; there never was one. Communities have always relied on a highly slanted version of the truth to make decisions. Propaganda and truth have both gotten cheaper to spread. The evidence is that the truth is doing a much better job relative to what it used to (I can see actual visual evidence of what is happening in Hong Kong, for example, in near real time). The downside is that it is cheaper for the government to track individual activities, but that is a slightly separate topic.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  In my opinion this is one of the best developments of recent decades. People with formerly no voice are at least able to exchange themselves with others and find like-minded individuals. I am very skeptical of people that advocate for a more top down approach to information exchange.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    As am I. Plenty of legitimate voices advocating for public good, let's say as an example, get swept up in these attempts to better centralize and manage information. That's not a good thing.
- lr4444lr 7y ago
  I think it was a heckuva lot cheaper for most of human history when there was no mass literacy or public schooling or universal suffrage. Perhaps we had a briefly better time than now in the mid-20th century, but what we are seeing now is if anything a slight backslide to the usual state of affairs. In the larger arc of history, I think we're on the better end of things.
aalleavitch 7y ago
Is this kind of competition healthy? More and more often I see competition as needlessly wasteful.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>Seriously though, who doesn't expect that their government will attempt to cast itself in the best light and smear its enemies? There's a lot of people who think of government (either in the general case or their specific government) as an infallible source of all that is good. It's basically a religion to them and they will find a way to hand-wave away this kind of thing no matter how you present it because you can't just tell people that their religion is wrong and expect them to roll over and accept it. Edit: I strive to get bipartisan down-votes. If you think your side is being singled out by my wording please comment and I will try and correct it.
- smt88 7y ago
  For many of them, it's less likely blind patriotism and more akin to a desire for safety. Your government may do evil things, but if it isn't actively oppressing you, and you have investment in its continuation (land holdings, for example), then you prefer your own evil government over others. Of course, no one wants to believe they selfishly support something evil, so they tell themselves whatever story is necessary. There's also some cognitive confusion in enjoying the benefits of your domestic government, even though its foreign policy is atrocious.

by pharke 7y ago

zaphirplane 7y ago

The article is about illegal actions or unethical pressure in mostly non democratic countries ( don’t know about Guatemala) I expect a prime minister or president to resign in democratic countries for those actions if they knew about it That is very far from spin, conflicting results in complex policy modeling.

jessaustin 7y ago
Sure, the source is biased, but at least they noticed when this happened: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-countering-disinformation-and-propaganda-act-law https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-24/obama-signs-counte... Here's the press release from Sen. Portman himself: https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-signs-portman-murphy-counter-propaganda-bill-law https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/presi...

tyleo 7y ago

I agree that this is the expected behavior of government. Governments are run by people after all and reflect their own strengths and deficiencies. I think it’s always a bad thing though. Modern governments are so powerful, their actions impact millions. I like your point that each generation has a myth about “being the chosen people”. I think we stand to make the same mistakes as our ancestors, it’s just the impact of those mistakes are now widespread.

justaguyhere 7y ago

Propaganda has been around since before the dawn of mass media True, but what is different this time is the cost and reach of propaganda. It is a lot cheaper, easier and faster to send emails, post on FB/Twitter, throw a website up... etc compared to 40-50 years (or even 30) ago when you had to use newspapers and television. What is even more horrific is you can tailor these message down to a individual person

roenxi 7y ago
When was the alternate age when people had access to and revered the truth? That is a trick question; there never was one. Communities have always relied on a highly slanted version of the truth to make decisions. Propaganda and truth have both gotten cheaper to spread. The evidence is that the truth is doing a much better job relative to what it used to (I can see actual visual evidence of what is happening in Hong Kong, for example, in near real time). The downside is that it is cheaper for the government to track individual activities, but that is a slightly separate topic.
raxxorrax 7y ago
In my opinion this is one of the best developments of recent decades. People with formerly no voice are at least able to exchange themselves with others and find like-minded individuals. I am very skeptical of people that advocate for a more top down approach to information exchange.
- ddingus 7y ago
  As am I. Plenty of legitimate voices advocating for public good, let's say as an example, get swept up in these attempts to better centralize and manage information. That's not a good thing.
lr4444lr 7y ago
I think it was a heckuva lot cheaper for most of human history when there was no mass literacy or public schooling or universal suffrage. Perhaps we had a briefly better time than now in the mid-20th century, but what we are seeing now is if anything a slight backslide to the usual state of affairs. In the larger arc of history, I think we're on the better end of things.

aalleavitch 7y ago

Is this kind of competition healthy? More and more often I see competition as needlessly wasteful.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>Seriously though, who doesn't expect that their government will attempt to cast itself in the best light and smear its enemies? There's a lot of people who think of government (either in the general case or their specific government) as an infallible source of all that is good. It's basically a religion to them and they will find a way to hand-wave away this kind of thing no matter how you present it because you can't just tell people that their religion is wrong and expect them to roll over and accept it. Edit: I strive to get bipartisan down-votes. If you think your side is being singled out by my wording please comment and I will try and correct it.

smt88 7y ago
For many of them, it's less likely blind patriotism and more akin to a desire for safety. Your government may do evil things, but if it isn't actively oppressing you, and you have investment in its continuation (land holdings, for example), then you prefer your own evil government over others. Of course, no one wants to believe they selfishly support something evil, so they tell themselves whatever story is necessary. There's also some cognitive confusion in enjoying the benefits of your domestic government, even though its foreign policy is atrocious.