3 ms·

Hypothetically, a benevolent NSA would primarily develop cryptographic security tools for the populace.

raxxorrax 7y ago
True. But besides their interest in acquiring exploits, I think their data collection seriously collides with peoples amendment rights against arbitrary state surveillance. I know there are some judges and institutions that enabled this madness, but I think they might be guilty as well. These judges should be accountable to the public in theory. I am not saying the everyone working at the NSA is a criminal. But maybe Snowden was the only one with perspective. The NSA as an institution certainly did more damage to the US than most of its enemies.
- Craighead 7y ago
  You must not understand how cyber war works. The US has judges and legislation to enable the NSA. Russia, China, Iran, NK, and many other authoritarian states seek to use their power to attack America 24x7 and do so without any oversight.
  - anilakar 7y ago
    A few countries actively try to hurt us, so let's spy on everyone, including our own citizens and allies!
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    I am not disputing other countries to not have bad intentions, but as a justification to breaking the law, this seems to be a defense where the guilt has already been determined. Personally, I think the "cyber war" is the typical scare to reduce civil rights. That is a pretty common pattern to bolster and justify disregarding the law. In reality, the cyber war is probably still focused on the classical industrial espionage. I fail to see the need to subject citizens to mass surveillance.
- hos234 7y ago
  Not that I want to spend time defending the NSA, but back then collecting all data happened because it was the easiest thing to do, more as a reaction than an actual solution to certain threats. When society has no great way of preventing, let's say for example, the Boston Marathon bombing or the Las Vegas Concert shooting, providing an appearance of activity, however mindless, like a bunch of ants feverishly running around when a stone is thrown into the anthill, is just the default setting of the security establishment. You can't blame them for that because we aren't yet psychologically, socially or politically sophisticated enough to do anything better. But today after collecting and sitting on top of shitloads of useless data they themselves admit its unnecessary. You don't find who the best Tennis player in the neighborhood is by monitoring the entire neighborhoods conversations but by just watching the local tennis courts. What you can do is ask why it took so long, with that nudge from Snowden, for the establishment to admit this. That kind of questioning prevents them jumping into further "we can do it so lets do it" bullshit projects down the road.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
In fact, there is no clear indication that they did not act in what they perceived as the interest of the US and its citizens. Many would disagree with that perception, and I also believe that amount of surveillance to have been wrong and counterproductive, but there hasn't been any evidence or significant hints into possible corrupt motivations. One mustn't forget that all of this was put into motion after the 9/11 attacks, and both the Bush and Obama administrations where still working under (somewhat irrational) pressure from citizens afraid of a repeat performance.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  "They" is an expansive word. We could better say there is no indication that nobody who had access to illegally-obtained information misused it. We have plenty of evidence of cops misusing databases they have access to, and that stuff is way less juicy.
oh_sigh 7y ago
Wouldn't those same tools make it easier for the baddies to do their bad things?
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Ah but they tried to, there's been proposals for cryptography that had NSA approved backdoors but they were never accepted or widely used. (IIRC / I believe)
auiya 7y ago
They do. https://cryptome.org/2016/01/CNSA-Suite-and-Quantum-Computing-FAQ.pdf https://cryptome.org/2016/01/CNSA-Suite-and-Quantum-Computin...

True. But besides their interest in acquiring exploits, I think their data collection seriously collides with peoples amendment rights against arbitrary state surveillance. I know there are some judges and institutions that enabled this madness, but I think they might be guilty as well. These judges should be accountable to the public in theory. I am not saying the everyone working at the NSA is a criminal. But maybe Snowden was the only one with perspective. The NSA as an institution certainly did more damage to the US than most of its enemies.

Craighead 7y ago
You must not understand how cyber war works. The US has judges and legislation to enable the NSA. Russia, China, Iran, NK, and many other authoritarian states seek to use their power to attack America 24x7 and do so without any oversight.
- anilakar 7y ago
  A few countries actively try to hurt us, so let's spy on everyone, including our own citizens and allies!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I am not disputing other countries to not have bad intentions, but as a justification to breaking the law, this seems to be a defense where the guilt has already been determined. Personally, I think the "cyber war" is the typical scare to reduce civil rights. That is a pretty common pattern to bolster and justify disregarding the law. In reality, the cyber war is probably still focused on the classical industrial espionage. I fail to see the need to subject citizens to mass surveillance.
hos234 7y ago
Not that I want to spend time defending the NSA, but back then collecting all data happened because it was the easiest thing to do, more as a reaction than an actual solution to certain threats. When society has no great way of preventing, let's say for example, the Boston Marathon bombing or the Las Vegas Concert shooting, providing an appearance of activity, however mindless, like a bunch of ants feverishly running around when a stone is thrown into the anthill, is just the default setting of the security establishment. You can't blame them for that because we aren't yet psychologically, socially or politically sophisticated enough to do anything better. But today after collecting and sitting on top of shitloads of useless data they themselves admit its unnecessary. You don't find who the best Tennis player in the neighborhood is by monitoring the entire neighborhoods conversations but by just watching the local tennis courts. What you can do is ask why it took so long, with that nudge from Snowden, for the establishment to admit this. That kind of questioning prevents them jumping into further "we can do it so lets do it" bullshit projects down the road.

bayesian_horse 7y ago

In fact, there is no clear indication that they did not act in what they perceived as the interest of the US and its citizens. Many would disagree with that perception, and I also believe that amount of surveillance to have been wrong and counterproductive, but there hasn't been any evidence or significant hints into possible corrupt motivations. One mustn't forget that all of this was put into motion after the 9/11 attacks, and both the Bush and Obama administrations where still working under (somewhat irrational) pressure from citizens afraid of a repeat performance.

ncmncm 7y ago
"They" is an expansive word. We could better say there is no indication that nobody who had access to illegally-obtained information misused it. We have plenty of evidence of cops misusing databases they have access to, and that stuff is way less juicy.

oh_sigh 7y ago

Wouldn't those same tools make it easier for the baddies to do their bad things?

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

Ah but they tried to, there's been proposals for cryptography that had NSA approved backdoors but they were never accepted or widely used. (IIRC / I believe)

auiya 7y ago

They do. https://cryptome.org/2016/01/CNSA-Suite-and-Quantum-Computing-FAQ.pdf https://cryptome.org/2016/01/CNSA-Suite-and-Quantum-Computin...