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Why does everyone who praises Apple on HN qualify it with the fact that they don’t like Apple for other reasons? Also, Apple is probably the best corporate citi

Why does everyone who praises Apple on HN qualify it with the fact that they don’t like Apple for other reasons? Also, Apple is probably the best corporate citizen of any company its relative size in history.

jjtheblunt 7y ago
I wondered the same: is it embarrassing here to think Apple does various things well?
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  Apple has a long history of very enthusiastic fans that can at times crossover into being obnoxious. Apple is hardly unique in that but it does seem to be somewhat more prevalent for them. Some commenters likely don't want to be quickly dismissed as fawning fans lacking perspective of Apple's place in the world.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    Yes, this is why I qualified my comment as I did.
  - stouset 7y ago
    I’ll bite. Apple’s detractors fit this bill far more than its fans do. The online hate Apple gets is nothing short of ridiculous compared to how responsible a corporate citizen they’ve been for as long as I can remember. Most of the time when I see Apple fans in a conversation, it’s countering badly informed anti-Apple circlejerking. One example that comes to mind is the whole Foxconn thing. Apple got massive amounts of backlash for the working conditions there, when virtually every other manufacturer uses them too and received only a handful of the same criticism. Apple dramatically tightened their standards and expanded their vetting process for third-party suppliers (which were already in place). Everyone else? Next to nothing or actually nothing. It’s completely backward in the same way as the stereotype of vegans. As someone who spent some time as a vegetarian, I quickly realized that most vegans/vegetarians try not to make a big deal out of their dietary choices. On the off chance someone does ask about it, they quickly explain their motivations and hope to move on. Then the next hour of conversation involves something like the omnivores trying to list off every animal type they’ve ever eaten, alphabetically. Alligator, beef (wait, does beef count? Probably not, okay let’s say bison), cuttlefish (wait do individual fish count or no?), etc. Apple fans (and vegans) get a bad rap because they’re in the minority and those in the majority are simply used to the status quo.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Maybe it's the circles I travel in, but I have seen way more knee-jerk Apple haters--here, on the internet at large, and IRL--than I've ever seen knee-jerk Apple apologists.
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  Unbridled praise of any large corporation on HN is an invitation to accusations of fanboyism. Prefacing the comment with some sort of deprecation has become a cultural element of immune response to flamewars on HN.
sneak 7y ago
I praise Apple’s largely charitable, low-ROI intense commitment to systemwide accessibility whenever possible. They are light-years ahead of everyone else in that department.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Is it low ROI if it allows them to gain nearly all of that segment of the population's market share? But yes, they are very good at accessibility.
  - macintux 7y ago
    Fewer than 1% of the U.S. population reports a visual disability[1]. Even if Apple cornered that market, it’s not a very good ROI. [1] https://www.nfb.org/resources/blindness-statistics https://www.nfb.org/resources/blindness-statistics
    - ineedasername 7y ago
      I disagree: There's over 200 million adults & 96% cell phone usage, which would translate to about 2 million disabled at 1%. If they even get 1/10 of that, assuming a device cost average around $700, you're talking about $140,000,000 per upgrade cycle. That seems more than enough to build in decent accessibility. And they get about 44% market share, so that's actually about $660,000,000 per upgrade cycle, which, if measured in cash of $100, is literally tons of money in profit!
dgzl 7y ago
Apple is undoubtedly a contentious company, and many of their fans are highly obsessive... I think OP is just letting people know that they're more if a critic than an obsessive fan, thus showing contrast with their praise of the feature.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > Apple is undoubtedly a contentious company Not by any vaguely reasonable metric when compared to other companies its size
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    That sounds too fan-ism. Why don’t we judge Apple for Apple’s words and actions and compare them to other’s words and actions, then see how each stacks up.
  - GPerson 7y ago
    What vaguely reasonable metrics might those be?
  - lloydde 7y ago
    A search now for “Apple iPhone labor” brings up recent articles describing issues with Apple’s sub-contractors. Size seems less relevant than the image Apple’s projected and its profits.
starpilot 7y ago
This applies to praise of any FAANG company now. Tech giants all harvesting data gather plenty of muck.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
a3n 7y ago
> Apple is probably the best corporate citizen of any company its relative size in history. Ahem ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... They have better PR, arguably better products, and a more likeable CEO than other tech hyper-corporations. But they are fundamentally no different than any other self-aware pile of cash.
- fouc 7y ago
  "Self-aware pile of cash" is actually quite an intriguing descriptor for corporations. Piles of cash with personhood rights.
  - slg 7y ago
    It is an inaccurate descriptor in my opinion. The cash isn't making decisions. The "corporation" isn't making any decisions. People are making decisions. Corporations are just groups of people just like unions are groups of people and governments are groups of people. Whenever one of these entities commits some malicious act against someone it is because people decided to do it to other people. Framing it in any other way is just an attempt to make us feel better about the reality of the situation.
- perseusmandate 7y ago
  They have demonstrated a consistent commitment to user privacy that their peers have not
CobrastanJorji 7y ago
It's not specific to this place. It's an effective persuasive argument technique. Say you want to praise Apple for something. Since praising Apple to Apple fans is preaching to the choir, your target is people who are not currently huge Apple fans. So, you begin by saying "hi, I am one of you, a person who isn't a big Apple fan." Now that you've established yourself as a member of the in-group, you drop your argument, "this aspect of Apple is good." Maybe you qualify it with "pretty good" to keep from tripping any alarms. Note: that's not to say that the speaker is being in any way deceptive. People naturally evolve and reinvent more effective speech patterns, often unconsciously.
- chii 7y ago
  aka, virtue signaling.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    It isn't technically virtue signing since it's meant to be persuasive. The post further down (well, up now) that's calling attention to the fact that the guy should replace his helmet because he used it (something that is common knowledge for most people young enough to only have worn single use helmets and is literally printed on the helmet and packaging) is a better example of virtue signaling since it states something basically everyone already accepts as fact and is only tangentially related to the article in the first place. Unfortunately, the term virtue signaling has taken on a political meaning so you can't say it and expect the internet even if you mean it in the technical sense.
- furyofantares 7y ago
  I think it has a second persuasive characteristic, which is simply to contrast with the claimed baseline. This second characteristic really grates on me when it comes in the form "I don't even know anything about X and even I know this is bad!" -- wherein people somehow leverage their lack of credibility on a subject as a source of authority. But I think it works because it makes the claim bigger by changing what it's being compared to.
ineedasername 7y ago
Probably because there is often a lot of unqualified praise or unexamined belief that all they do is incredible and right. In order to avoid the appearance of that, sometimes people qualify their praise in the way I have done.
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
What’s wrong with saying something like: Despite thing-X’s flaws it does a good job of outcome-Y?
sundvor 7y ago
I for one can't stand their closed eco system and am not impressed by the way Apple is merely picking features that others have funneled through their own innovation processes (seeing what works, what doesn't) - furthermore claiming it as "theirs" not giving any nod to those who went before. Etc. Etc. So I completely understand why someone would qualify their opinion that this is a nifty good feature by stating as much. Automatic emergency dialing is one feature that my Galaxy Watch doesn't have, that I'd like to have. Going back to my first paragraph: Appled "claimed" AoD in their launch, however the Galaxy Watch has a great always on display with battery that lasts for days - even longer than the S3 Frontier I had before it. Pebble was the original gangster of course, pretty much inventing the whole market - screen always on for 10 days in the PTS! - but now that they're gone (RIP - all of my Pebbles broke several times so I know why) Garmin has the #1 best battery life by far. I really, really like Tizen however so went with that being a Samsung S-series owner and appreciating the fantastic integration.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21065259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21065259.

jjtheblunt 7y ago

I wondered the same: is it embarrassing here to think Apple does various things well?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
Apple has a long history of very enthusiastic fans that can at times crossover into being obnoxious. Apple is hardly unique in that but it does seem to be somewhat more prevalent for them. Some commenters likely don't want to be quickly dismissed as fawning fans lacking perspective of Apple's place in the world.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Yes, this is why I qualified my comment as I did.
- stouset 7y ago
  I’ll bite. Apple’s detractors fit this bill far more than its fans do. The online hate Apple gets is nothing short of ridiculous compared to how responsible a corporate citizen they’ve been for as long as I can remember. Most of the time when I see Apple fans in a conversation, it’s countering badly informed anti-Apple circlejerking. One example that comes to mind is the whole Foxconn thing. Apple got massive amounts of backlash for the working conditions there, when virtually every other manufacturer uses them too and received only a handful of the same criticism. Apple dramatically tightened their standards and expanded their vetting process for third-party suppliers (which were already in place). Everyone else? Next to nothing or actually nothing. It’s completely backward in the same way as the stereotype of vegans. As someone who spent some time as a vegetarian, I quickly realized that most vegans/vegetarians try not to make a big deal out of their dietary choices. On the off chance someone does ask about it, they quickly explain their motivations and hope to move on. Then the next hour of conversation involves something like the omnivores trying to list off every animal type they’ve ever eaten, alphabetically. Alligator, beef (wait, does beef count? Probably not, okay let’s say bison), cuttlefish (wait do individual fish count or no?), etc. Apple fans (and vegans) get a bad rap because they’re in the minority and those in the majority are simply used to the status quo.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Maybe it's the circles I travel in, but I have seen way more knee-jerk Apple haters--here, on the internet at large, and IRL--than I've ever seen knee-jerk Apple apologists.
killjoywashere 7y ago
Unbridled praise of any large corporation on HN is an invitation to accusations of fanboyism. Prefacing the comment with some sort of deprecation has become a cultural element of immune response to flamewars on HN.

sneak 7y ago

I praise Apple’s largely charitable, low-ROI intense commitment to systemwide accessibility whenever possible. They are light-years ahead of everyone else in that department.

ineedasername 7y ago
Is it low ROI if it allows them to gain nearly all of that segment of the population's market share? But yes, they are very good at accessibility.
- macintux 7y ago
  Fewer than 1% of the U.S. population reports a visual disability[1]. Even if Apple cornered that market, it’s not a very good ROI. [1] https://www.nfb.org/resources/blindness-statistics https://www.nfb.org/resources/blindness-statistics
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    I disagree: There's over 200 million adults & 96% cell phone usage, which would translate to about 2 million disabled at 1%. If they even get 1/10 of that, assuming a device cost average around $700, you're talking about $140,000,000 per upgrade cycle. That seems more than enough to build in decent accessibility. And they get about 44% market share, so that's actually about $660,000,000 per upgrade cycle, which, if measured in cash of $100, is literally tons of money in profit!

dgzl 7y ago

Apple is undoubtedly a contentious company, and many of their fans are highly obsessive... I think OP is just letting people know that they're more if a critic than an obsessive fan, thus showing contrast with their praise of the feature.

peteretep 7y ago
> Apple is undoubtedly a contentious company Not by any vaguely reasonable metric when compared to other companies its size
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  That sounds too fan-ism. Why don’t we judge Apple for Apple’s words and actions and compare them to other’s words and actions, then see how each stacks up.
- GPerson 7y ago
  What vaguely reasonable metrics might those be?
- lloydde 7y ago
  A search now for “Apple iPhone labor” brings up recent articles describing issues with Apple’s sub-contractors. Size seems less relevant than the image Apple’s projected and its profits.

starpilot 7y ago

This applies to praise of any FAANG company now. Tech giants all harvesting data gather plenty of muck.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

a3n 7y ago

> Apple is probably the best corporate citizen of any company its relative size in history. Ahem ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... They have better PR, arguably better products, and a more likeable CEO than other tech hyper-corporations. But they are fundamentally no different than any other self-aware pile of cash.

fouc 7y ago
"Self-aware pile of cash" is actually quite an intriguing descriptor for corporations. Piles of cash with personhood rights.
- slg 7y ago
  It is an inaccurate descriptor in my opinion. The cash isn't making decisions. The "corporation" isn't making any decisions. People are making decisions. Corporations are just groups of people just like unions are groups of people and governments are groups of people. Whenever one of these entities commits some malicious act against someone it is because people decided to do it to other people. Framing it in any other way is just an attempt to make us feel better about the reality of the situation.
perseusmandate 7y ago
They have demonstrated a consistent commitment to user privacy that their peers have not

CobrastanJorji 7y ago

It's not specific to this place. It's an effective persuasive argument technique. Say you want to praise Apple for something. Since praising Apple to Apple fans is preaching to the choir, your target is people who are not currently huge Apple fans. So, you begin by saying "hi, I am one of you, a person who isn't a big Apple fan." Now that you've established yourself as a member of the in-group, you drop your argument, "this aspect of Apple is good." Maybe you qualify it with "pretty good" to keep from tripping any alarms. Note: that's not to say that the speaker is being in any way deceptive. People naturally evolve and reinvent more effective speech patterns, often unconsciously.

chii 7y ago
aka, virtue signaling.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  It isn't technically virtue signing since it's meant to be persuasive. The post further down (well, up now) that's calling attention to the fact that the guy should replace his helmet because he used it (something that is common knowledge for most people young enough to only have worn single use helmets and is literally printed on the helmet and packaging) is a better example of virtue signaling since it states something basically everyone already accepts as fact and is only tangentially related to the article in the first place. Unfortunately, the term virtue signaling has taken on a political meaning so you can't say it and expect the internet even if you mean it in the technical sense.
furyofantares 7y ago
I think it has a second persuasive characteristic, which is simply to contrast with the claimed baseline. This second characteristic really grates on me when it comes in the form "I don't even know anything about X and even I know this is bad!" -- wherein people somehow leverage their lack of credibility on a subject as a source of authority. But I think it works because it makes the claim bigger by changing what it's being compared to.

ineedasername 7y ago

Probably because there is often a lot of unqualified praise or unexamined belief that all they do is incredible and right. In order to avoid the appearance of that, sometimes people qualify their praise in the way I have done.

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

What’s wrong with saying something like: Despite thing-X’s flaws it does a good job of outcome-Y?

sundvor 7y ago

I for one can't stand their closed eco system and am not impressed by the way Apple is merely picking features that others have funneled through their own innovation processes (seeing what works, what doesn't) - furthermore claiming it as "theirs" not giving any nod to those who went before. Etc. Etc. So I completely understand why someone would qualify their opinion that this is a nifty good feature by stating as much. Automatic emergency dialing is one feature that my Galaxy Watch doesn't have, that I'd like to have. Going back to my first paragraph: Appled "claimed" AoD in their launch, however the Galaxy Watch has a great always on display with battery that lasts for days - even longer than the S3 Frontier I had before it. Pebble was the original gangster of course, pretty much inventing the whole market - screen always on for 10 days in the PTS! - but now that they're gone (RIP - all of my Pebbles broke several times so I know why) Garmin has the #1 best battery life by far. I really, really like Tizen however so went with that being a Samsung S-series owner and appreciating the fantastic integration.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21065259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21065259.