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Same here, and only by reading the headlines. A WeWork recruiter reached out to me. I laughed out loud and added it to the list of companies I would never work

Same here, and only by reading the headlines. A WeWork recruiter reached out to me. I laughed out loud and added it to the list of companies I would never work for. Not only do they do nothing interesting, but they are apparently unethical as well. No doubt another failed tech bro pump 'n dump scheme headed to the dustbin of history.

ryanwaggoner 7y ago
Definitely just another failed tech bro pump 'n dump scheme headed to the dustbin of history. I seriously doubt that. I think they're overvalued too, but I predict WeWork is still going to be around in another decade. There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide.
- hyperbovine 7y ago
  > There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide. There has always been, and will always be, demand for the ability to buy one dollar for 80 cents. This is not some newfangled business model. Amazingly, it keeps cropping up again and again.
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  If you don't include the economics of the business model in the evaluation, you could say exactly the same of Juiceroo. There's clearly significant demand for juice presses.
  - TremendousJudge 7y ago
    Not a valid comparison -- Juicero didn't really manage to sell its product, while many people and companies rent WeWork's space
    - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
      Sure, but that's because the economics of the specific way that the business model doesn't make sense is different for the two - with Juicero, they attempted to screw over the end user, while with WeWork they were trying to screw over (public) investors. Edit: or to borrow a popular saying - with WeWork, it's not the furnished rental office stuff that is the product, it's the IPO.
    - Tuna-Fish 7y ago
      Right now, based on their own data, We is selling a dollar for 60 cents to their customers. With very flexible contracts. Of course many people and companies rent from them. Just see how long that lasts when We starts needing to get actual profit from them.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  > but I predict WeWork is still going to be around in another decade. There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide There's also a TON of rent-a-desk places. The big questions are: - What's the benefit to a large corporation doing this instead of lots of small companies? (The economies of scale need to outweigh the large corporate overhead.) - What's WeWork's secret sauce or first mover advantage?
  - seisvelas 7y ago
    The advantage is similar to that of a large gym chain - you can pay more to get a membership that's valid at all the WeWorks in the entire world. This is great for people who regularly travel between many large cities.
    - cj 7y ago
      I suspect the majority of WeWork's revenue comes from people working in the same location day in, day out. Same with gym chains. People sign up for Planet Fitness because the nearest location is the most convenient, not because they plan to visit multiple locations over the course of a year (not to say there aren't people taking advantage of the multi-city aspect, just that they aren't the typical customer).
      - jjeaff 7y ago
        Ya, I can't imagine that is really a draw at all. If you travel a lot, you will have an office in your hotel room or can use the business center in the hotel.
        MrFantastic 7y ago
        It would be more impressive to meet a client at a WeWork office.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        Not sure what industry you’re in but I don’t think most people’s clients think like that.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  That is interesting. Were you around in the dotcom days?
- Tuna-Fish 7y ago
  There is ton of demand for what they provide, but what they provide can easily be copied, and the copycats will not have a mountain of debt/investment caused by irrational drive for growth at any price that they need to pay back. Right now, no-one is competing against We because they are selling a dollar at 60 cents to their customers. The second they stop doing that, there will be a dozen clones. We is worthless.
  - chrismarlow9 7y ago
    This is my thought. It's about real estate. If starbucks decided to go full throttle into this concept they would kill it. They've essentially been the unwritten king of co-workspace since they showed up.
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    Right now, no-one is competing against We WHAT? there's quite healthy competition[1], which actually make money as opposed to We. Granted, you don't get free beer and smarmy slogans. But competition is definitly on the market. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWG_plc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWG_plc
- robbiemitchell 7y ago
  Corporate governance problems aside, they have major cash flow problems relative to debt obligations and are also losing money. One could argue the demand is there because the price is artificially low.
- empath75 7y ago
  WeWork seems to have bought every single ad placement at some dc metro stops. Smacks of desperation.
- x0x0 7y ago
  I agree, but will any management still be there if they're worth $2-5B rather than $40 billion? Also, the strategy of segregating assets onto Adam's personal balance sheet looks like a bad idea now that he's no longer ceo.
  - andrewem 7y ago
    Does putting assets onto Adam's balance sheet look like a bad idea for Adam, or for We? As with Enron, the way to understand the company's decision making is that in many particulars it was not trying to optimize its outcomes, it was trying to optimize the CEO's (and in Enron's case, the CFO's and maybe a couple others).
- reilly3000 7y ago
  Agreed. The Saudi's via Softbank will install an experienced CEO and they will start operating effectively. I was skeptical about the whole thing, as somebody who worked out of a Regus office about 10 years ago the idea was not novel at all. That said, I see the notion of on-demand capacity in the physical world very similar to what makes cloud computing work: pay for what you need when you need it. With an increasingly remote work world, on-demand space can be purchased or reserved by big companies and well-funded startups, allowing for project-based teams to collaborate in-person. I'm not super optimistic about their prospects, but their backers have the resources to ensure a return on their investment, and they are most likely to do so.
- wpietri 7y ago
  I mean, Groupon's still around too, but at ~10% of their IPO valuation. Is it possible WeWork will struggle along? Sure, although I have questions about what will happen with the $6bn of debt they declare in their S1. But supposing they do, I see little reason to think they'll be a major player. I don't see anything stopping other rental companies from matching any innovations they've made. The same goes for major property owners. Some will stick with big chunks of space. But if there's a 30% premium for being flexible, providing desks, etc, the some of them will happily cut out the middleman.
alainchabat 7y ago
what are the other companies you'll never work for?
- codesushi42 7y ago
  Facebook is one, and a week doesn't go by without me being contacted by one of their recruiters touting their advancements in poker playing AI. Whoopee.
  - tgtweak 7y ago
    The funniest part is when they reach out almost immediately after eliminating a candidate, for the same job. Like their recruiters aren't even coordinated. I'm sure they farm some of that out.
- tgtweak 7y ago
  Hijacking this spot to highlight newrelic as a company I used to evangelize and now will go out of my way to recommend against (I consult startups as a virtual CTO). They used to have a brilliant offering (Application level monitoring with all associated hosts included) then they deprecated the host monitoring and jacked the price up on every one of my clients while simultaneously threatening them to collect based on the new plans. Every month was a new account rep reaching out to introduce themselves. My love affair ended when a message to the CMO resulted in them forcing the account into free tier without so much as a reply - basically what I'd expect from someone who designed such an org. Moved all the remaining clients off of it (5 digit MRR) to datadog and didn't look back. Later worked with a former engineer and he attested it was a shit show after they set their sights on an IPO. They had really really strong tech and product culture up until then. Was kind of a death rattle for me and sure enough after they IPOd they really did nothing. Still makes me angry when I think of it cause it was such a kick-ass product.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    We need an HN thread that highlights companies to never work for and why, like this example. Thank you sir.
rajacombinator 7y ago
You’re gloating but the pnd already succeeded to the tune of $700+ million.

ryanwaggoner 7y ago

Definitely just another failed tech bro pump 'n dump scheme headed to the dustbin of history. I seriously doubt that. I think they're overvalued too, but I predict WeWork is still going to be around in another decade. There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide.

hyperbovine 7y ago
> There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide. There has always been, and will always be, demand for the ability to buy one dollar for 80 cents. This is not some newfangled business model. Amazingly, it keeps cropping up again and again.
semi-extrinsic 7y ago
If you don't include the economics of the business model in the evaluation, you could say exactly the same of Juiceroo. There's clearly significant demand for juice presses.
- TremendousJudge 7y ago
  Not a valid comparison -- Juicero didn't really manage to sell its product, while many people and companies rent WeWork's space
  - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
    Sure, but that's because the economics of the specific way that the business model doesn't make sense is different for the two - with Juicero, they attempted to screw over the end user, while with WeWork they were trying to screw over (public) investors. Edit: or to borrow a popular saying - with WeWork, it's not the furnished rental office stuff that is the product, it's the IPO.
  - Tuna-Fish 7y ago
    Right now, based on their own data, We is selling a dollar for 60 cents to their customers. With very flexible contracts. Of course many people and companies rent from them. Just see how long that lasts when We starts needing to get actual profit from them.
gwbas1c 7y ago
> but I predict WeWork is still going to be around in another decade. There's clearly a ton of demand for what they provide There's also a TON of rent-a-desk places. The big questions are: - What's the benefit to a large corporation doing this instead of lots of small companies? (The economies of scale need to outweigh the large corporate overhead.) - What's WeWork's secret sauce or first mover advantage?
- seisvelas 7y ago
  The advantage is similar to that of a large gym chain - you can pay more to get a membership that's valid at all the WeWorks in the entire world. This is great for people who regularly travel between many large cities.
  - cj 7y ago
    I suspect the majority of WeWork's revenue comes from people working in the same location day in, day out. Same with gym chains. People sign up for Planet Fitness because the nearest location is the most convenient, not because they plan to visit multiple locations over the course of a year (not to say there aren't people taking advantage of the multi-city aspect, just that they aren't the typical customer).
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      Ya, I can't imagine that is really a draw at all. If you travel a lot, you will have an office in your hotel room or can use the business center in the hotel.
      - MrFantastic 7y ago
        It would be more impressive to meet a client at a WeWork office.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        Not sure what industry you’re in but I don’t think most people’s clients think like that.
codesushi42 7y ago
That is interesting. Were you around in the dotcom days?
Tuna-Fish 7y ago
There is ton of demand for what they provide, but what they provide can easily be copied, and the copycats will not have a mountain of debt/investment caused by irrational drive for growth at any price that they need to pay back. Right now, no-one is competing against We because they are selling a dollar at 60 cents to their customers. The second they stop doing that, there will be a dozen clones. We is worthless.
- chrismarlow9 7y ago
  This is my thought. It's about real estate. If starbucks decided to go full throttle into this concept they would kill it. They've essentially been the unwritten king of co-workspace since they showed up.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  Right now, no-one is competing against We WHAT? there's quite healthy competition[1], which actually make money as opposed to We. Granted, you don't get free beer and smarmy slogans. But competition is definitly on the market. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWG_plc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWG_plc
robbiemitchell 7y ago
Corporate governance problems aside, they have major cash flow problems relative to debt obligations and are also losing money. One could argue the demand is there because the price is artificially low.
empath75 7y ago
WeWork seems to have bought every single ad placement at some dc metro stops. Smacks of desperation.
x0x0 7y ago
I agree, but will any management still be there if they're worth $2-5B rather than $40 billion? Also, the strategy of segregating assets onto Adam's personal balance sheet looks like a bad idea now that he's no longer ceo.
- andrewem 7y ago
  Does putting assets onto Adam's balance sheet look like a bad idea for Adam, or for We? As with Enron, the way to understand the company's decision making is that in many particulars it was not trying to optimize its outcomes, it was trying to optimize the CEO's (and in Enron's case, the CFO's and maybe a couple others).
reilly3000 7y ago
Agreed. The Saudi's via Softbank will install an experienced CEO and they will start operating effectively. I was skeptical about the whole thing, as somebody who worked out of a Regus office about 10 years ago the idea was not novel at all. That said, I see the notion of on-demand capacity in the physical world very similar to what makes cloud computing work: pay for what you need when you need it. With an increasingly remote work world, on-demand space can be purchased or reserved by big companies and well-funded startups, allowing for project-based teams to collaborate in-person. I'm not super optimistic about their prospects, but their backers have the resources to ensure a return on their investment, and they are most likely to do so.
wpietri 7y ago
I mean, Groupon's still around too, but at ~10% of their IPO valuation. Is it possible WeWork will struggle along? Sure, although I have questions about what will happen with the $6bn of debt they declare in their S1. But supposing they do, I see little reason to think they'll be a major player. I don't see anything stopping other rental companies from matching any innovations they've made. The same goes for major property owners. Some will stick with big chunks of space. But if there's a 30% premium for being flexible, providing desks, etc, the some of them will happily cut out the middleman.

alainchabat 7y ago

what are the other companies you'll never work for?

codesushi42 7y ago
Facebook is one, and a week doesn't go by without me being contacted by one of their recruiters touting their advancements in poker playing AI. Whoopee.
- tgtweak 7y ago
  The funniest part is when they reach out almost immediately after eliminating a candidate, for the same job. Like their recruiters aren't even coordinated. I'm sure they farm some of that out.
tgtweak 7y ago
Hijacking this spot to highlight newrelic as a company I used to evangelize and now will go out of my way to recommend against (I consult startups as a virtual CTO). They used to have a brilliant offering (Application level monitoring with all associated hosts included) then they deprecated the host monitoring and jacked the price up on every one of my clients while simultaneously threatening them to collect based on the new plans. Every month was a new account rep reaching out to introduce themselves. My love affair ended when a message to the CMO resulted in them forcing the account into free tier without so much as a reply - basically what I'd expect from someone who designed such an org. Moved all the remaining clients off of it (5 digit MRR) to datadog and didn't look back. Later worked with a former engineer and he attested it was a shit show after they set their sights on an IPO. They had really really strong tech and product culture up until then. Was kind of a death rattle for me and sure enough after they IPOd they really did nothing. Still makes me angry when I think of it cause it was such a kick-ass product.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  We need an HN thread that highlights companies to never work for and why, like this example. Thank you sir.

rajacombinator 7y ago

You’re gloating but the pnd already succeeded to the tune of $700+ million.