7 ms·

It's impossible. Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. If you add intermediate network gear, it's hard enough to

by juancn 7y ago

It's impossible. Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. If you add intermediate network gear, it's hard enough to get across half the globe in under 180ms (I'know, I live in Argentina and that's my ping time to almost anywhere non local). You could fake it somehow in some scenarios or with an awful lot of money.

mrob 7y ago
Speculatively make and cache likely requests. Predict server responses client-side, and update with the server response if it differs. Multiplayer games have been hiding latency since QuakeWorld.
- littlestymaar 7y ago
  Have you ever tried playing a competitive game with above 300ms ping?
  - mrob 7y ago
    Yes, and it doesn't work well. But 300ms ping is unusually high. I'm 141ms from HN's server, and that's in a different continent from me. Google is only 10ms. 141ms is playable with good client-side prediction.
    - littlestymaar 7y ago
      > But 300ms ping is unusually high It's not that high if you live in a rural area (And I'm not even talking about a third world country, I live in France). Most of the time, the main culprit is Bufferbloat[1]. I'm currently playing World of Warcraft with 250ms of ping, and even for solo level up it's annoying. League of Legends with 350ms isn't fun at all… [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        Buffer bloat is an example of what this manifesto is motivated by. The hardware's capable of being much faster, and has been set up wrong. A game dev can't fix it, but it should not be taken as a ground truth of the world. It needs to be fixed. Combine that with a smaller amount of prediction, and things come out pretty well.
Dylan16807 7y ago
In most situations you can have more than one server. If you focus on the 64ms goal, and you budget 20 for ethernet/fiber, that gets you 2000km each way to reach the closest one.
youareostriches 7y ago
>Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. This is a hint that you're writing for the wrong platform. Write real apps.
acdha 7y ago
> It's impossible. Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. Your second sentence explains why the first is wrong. Yes, you can’t have the entire world using a single server but it’s never been easier to get servers around the world and the new edge compute services are further improving that.
- littlestymaar 7y ago
  > around the world Only if your «world» means «developed countries only»…
  - littlestymaar 7y ago
    Also, notwithstanding speed of light being high enough, I live in a remote part of France and I have between 100 and 200ms ping on Google servers…
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    Cloudflare's got POPs almost everywhere (though densities vary with population of heavy internet users), and has a very good free plan which I use. Have a look: https://www.cloudflare.com/network/ https://www.cloudflare.com/network/ Akamai's coverage is better still; they've got just about the entire world covered: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/resources/visualizing-akamai/media-delivery-map.jsp https://www.akamai.com/us/en/resources/visualizing-akamai/me... Cloudfront, Google, Fastly, etc. all have pretty good coverage, though you're right they're spottier when it comes to S. America, Africa, and a few other places. Their POPs are, from what I understand, have higher capacity but are less dense. Good for cost savings, though probably worse for latency. There's also the consideration that most web sites have most of their users in the developed world (though that equation is shifting quickly for a some). Out of curiosity, what is the significance of "<<" and ">>"? I'm assuming they're not bitwise shift left and right. I've seen them more often as of late, and they seem to come mostly from non-Americans. I ask because they're quite difficult to run an internet search on without knowing what they are called.
    - 7y ago
ChristianBundy 7y ago
> Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. This assumes that we need remote servers to do our computing for us. :~) P2P software doesn't require remote servers, plus it means your apps still work offline.
dahart 7y ago
This manifesto is made just for you! Waiting for the response before updating the screen is the wrong answer. It’s not impossible, you’re assuming incorrectly that the manifesto is saying the final result needs to be on screen. It didn’t say that, it said the app needs to respond to action visually, not that the response or interaction sequence must be completed within that time frame. The right answer for web and networked applications is to update the screen with UI that acknowledges the user action and shows the user that the result is pending. Ideally, progress is visible, but that’s tangential to the point of the manifesto. A client can, in fact, almost always respond to actions within these time constraints. The point is to do something, rather than wait for the network response.
fishnchips 7y ago
In some cases (most requests succeed, and you know the likely outcome) an optimistic update would suffice.
PeterisP 7y ago
Getting a CDN to put your content much closer to users does not require an awful lot of money. The vast majority of your users shouldn't be across half the globe; if you're a tiny local shop, then you're targeting local users; and if you're targeting multiple continents then it's not that hard to host stuff on multiple continents cheaply even if you're just a couple people, there are services available for that.

by juancn 7y ago

mrob 7y ago

Speculatively make and cache likely requests. Predict server responses client-side, and update with the server response if it differs. Multiplayer games have been hiding latency since QuakeWorld.

littlestymaar 7y ago
Have you ever tried playing a competitive game with above 300ms ping?
- mrob 7y ago
  Yes, and it doesn't work well. But 300ms ping is unusually high. I'm 141ms from HN's server, and that's in a different continent from me. Google is only 10ms. 141ms is playable with good client-side prediction.
  - littlestymaar 7y ago
    > But 300ms ping is unusually high It's not that high if you live in a rural area (And I'm not even talking about a third world country, I live in France). Most of the time, the main culprit is Bufferbloat[1]. I'm currently playing World of Warcraft with 250ms of ping, and even for solo level up it's annoying. League of Legends with 350ms isn't fun at all… [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      Buffer bloat is an example of what this manifesto is motivated by. The hardware's capable of being much faster, and has been set up wrong. A game dev can't fix it, but it should not be taken as a ground truth of the world. It needs to be fixed. Combine that with a smaller amount of prediction, and things come out pretty well.

Dylan16807 7y ago

In most situations you can have more than one server. If you focus on the 64ms goal, and you budget 20 for ethernet/fiber, that gets you 2000km each way to reach the closest one.

youareostriches 7y ago

>Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. This is a hint that you're writing for the wrong platform. Write real apps.

acdha 7y ago

> It's impossible. Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. Your second sentence explains why the first is wrong. Yes, you can’t have the entire world using a single server but it’s never been easier to get servers around the world and the new edge compute services are further improving that.

littlestymaar 7y ago
> around the world Only if your «world» means «developed countries only»…
- littlestymaar 7y ago
  Also, notwithstanding speed of light being high enough, I live in a remote part of France and I have between 100 and 200ms ping on Google servers…
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Cloudflare's got POPs almost everywhere (though densities vary with population of heavy internet users), and has a very good free plan which I use. Have a look: https://www.cloudflare.com/network/ https://www.cloudflare.com/network/ Akamai's coverage is better still; they've got just about the entire world covered: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/resources/visualizing-akamai/media-delivery-map.jsp https://www.akamai.com/us/en/resources/visualizing-akamai/me... Cloudfront, Google, Fastly, etc. all have pretty good coverage, though you're right they're spottier when it comes to S. America, Africa, and a few other places. Their POPs are, from what I understand, have higher capacity but are less dense. Good for cost savings, though probably worse for latency. There's also the consideration that most web sites have most of their users in the developed world (though that equation is shifting quickly for a some). Out of curiosity, what is the significance of "<<" and ">>"? I'm assuming they're not bitwise shift left and right. I've seen them more often as of late, and they seem to come mostly from non-Americans. I ask because they're quite difficult to run an internet search on without knowing what they are called.
  - 7y ago

ChristianBundy 7y ago

> Lightspeed doesn't allow for that on websites if you're far enough from the servers. This assumes that we need remote servers to do our computing for us. :~) P2P software doesn't require remote servers, plus it means your apps still work offline.

dahart 7y ago

This manifesto is made just for you! Waiting for the response before updating the screen is the wrong answer. It’s not impossible, you’re assuming incorrectly that the manifesto is saying the final result needs to be on screen. It didn’t say that, it said the app needs to respond to action visually, not that the response or interaction sequence must be completed within that time frame. The right answer for web and networked applications is to update the screen with UI that acknowledges the user action and shows the user that the result is pending. Ideally, progress is visible, but that’s tangential to the point of the manifesto. A client can, in fact, almost always respond to actions within these time constraints. The point is to do something, rather than wait for the network response.

fishnchips 7y ago

In some cases (most requests succeed, and you know the likely outcome) an optimistic update would suffice.

PeterisP 7y ago

Getting a CDN to put your content much closer to users does not require an awful lot of money. The vast majority of your users shouldn't be across half the globe; if you're a tiny local shop, then you're targeting local users; and if you're targeting multiple continents then it's not that hard to host stuff on multiple continents cheaply even if you're just a couple people, there are services available for that.