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When you compare it to Android where you're lucky to get 18 months support it comes out ahead. When you compare it to MacOS and Windows 10 which run on 8-10 yea

When you compare it to Android where you're lucky to get 18 months support it comes out ahead. When you compare it to MacOS and Windows 10 which run on 8-10 year old hardware, not as much. Of course how good Windows support is for that older hardware depends largely on OEMs and driver support and varies greatly. Linux can run on 20 year old hardware... or older?

penagwin 7y ago
Since apple markets their ipados for productivity as an alternative to a MacBook or a windows laptop - I'm not sure Linux can really be included. Simply put - Linux has never been focused on tablet UI UX or that kind of productivity, it's not a technical limitation sure but there's literally 0 polish on any kind of "streamlined tablet experience"
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > Simply put - Linux has never been focused on tablet UI UX or that kind of productivity Used to be true but not any longer; recent versions of GNOME 3 are now quite usable on tablets (and touch-screen enabled laptops) as long as the bare hardware support is there. Sure, this is largely a side effect of Librem's work on smartphone UX support, but the effect is quite real nonetheless. And Linux on a tablet can achieve things that are quite hard or even impossible on other "mobile-ready" OS's.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  Smartphones, tablets, Windows, Macs, Linux... they are all similar products targeting marginally different markets. I use my iPad for the same things I used my Linux desktop for not long ago. There are some things one does better than the other, but ultimately there is much more overlap than differences. The bigger the difference in form factor, the bigger the difference in use cases. Also, less folks forget... Android is Linux.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > I use my iPad for the same things I used my Linux desktop for not long ago. There are some things one does better than the other, but ultimately there is much more overlap than differences. I really really don't get this. I like the iPad, but Apple wants to sell me this idea that the iPad is an actual* computer. It's not. It's a toy computer. It's fun. It's not serious. Stop pretending, Apple. *) An actual computer lets you mark pages as executable.
    - theshrike79 7y ago
      Just because you can't do "actual work" on a toy iPad, it doesn't mean it's useless for everyone. I've done production deployments with an iPad + smart keyboard + blink shell, works just fine.
      - gridlockd 7y ago
        > blink shell In other words, you did use an actual computer, but remotely.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    And more folks forget that Android userspace, and Trebelized drivers couldn't care less what kernel is being used.
ckastner 7y ago
> When you compare it to Android where you're lucky to get 18 months support it comes out ahead Google keeps their own hardware updated quite well, I liked the monthly security updates. With regards to the rest of the tablet market, basically only Samsung and Lenovo are left, and Samsung lost me as a customer a long time ago. I've been looking at the iPad Air 3 recently and while it looks nice, I just fell in love with the Apple pencil. The fact that they update even their ancient hardware is just a huge plus -- that's commitment to the customer.
- sanbor 7y ago
  Google advertises that will provide updates for 3 years for Pixel 3a [1]. I think it should be at least 5 years. [1] https://www.androidcentral.com/pixel-3a-does-one-more-thing-nobody-talking-about-kills-market-pixel-4 https://www.androidcentral.com/pixel-3a-does-one-more-thing-...
  - benologist 7y ago
    I think they should be made to provide updates for all Android devices while they continue to sell devices with Android and some timeframe beyond. In both Google's and Apple's case they can easily commit to supporting all devices for as long as they commit to selling devices with these operating systems. Imagine the travesty if Microsoft could turn off Windows updates like this and write off general purpose computers just a few years old or even five years old per Apple. This is a joke, we should not be making exceptions for Google or Apple, their software should not be allowed to render 10s or 100s of millions of competent devices obsolete annually. This is anti-consumer and stupidly-bad for the environment, and we can see from Windows it is entirely optional and we can see from their $100+ billion in savings each, that Google and Apple could do it too.
    - bscphil 7y ago
      I agree 100% for phones sold through the Google Play store. Offer security updates for 100% of their phones indefinitely. Stop the automatic feature updates when the phone becomes slow enough that the new Android version would be a downgrade, but still make it available to users who want to manually upgrade it. The fact that single individuals in their spare time have been doing ROMs for devices that achieve this for years proves that this isn't the maintenance burden it's sometimes made out to be. The device tree stuff means that even closed source modules aren't that bad to deal with these days.
Analemma_ 7y ago
In Apple's defense, the SOCs on iPads are improving much, much faster than PC chips. Intel chips have been getting faster at something like 5% per year for the last decade, compared to 50% for Apple's A-series. So I think supporting 5 years worth of iPad devices is somewhat comparable to supporting 20 years worth of PC hardware: in both cases it's about a 100x performance difference between the bottom and top, and beyond that I imagine it's not worth it to try and tune an OS for both.
- zmk_ 7y ago
  Microsoft supported Windows XP for 12 years, Windows 7 for 10 years (+4 years if you are willing to pay for extended support). During the lifespan of XP the Moore's law was very much working.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    The big difference here is Windows XP and Windows 7 had nearly static feature-sets over their lifetimes (or in the case of XP, SP 3 quickly became the baseline). For the vast majority, Windows XP that shipped with your computer was the same for the lifetime of that product. iOS changes features every year, often quite significantly. The challenge is whether the next version of Windows supported your hardware and this was often not the case. If your OEM had funky components and didn't want to update the drivers to the new version of Windows you were SOL. Windows has changes a LOT since XP/ Windows 7 and their update model is more like iOS than XP now so it's hard to use the old model as a baseline.
    - zmk_ 7y ago
      The OP said that Apple doesn't have to support older devices because they are antiquated as far as performance goes. So I gave an example where software was supported for far longer during bigger increases in performance. You are saying that as long as the OEM updates drivers for components support is possible. I agree. This is a reason why Android is often not updated even in the modding community (Qualcomm is not releasing drivers). If only Apple was responsible for both the software and hardware... Oh wait...
mucosal1 7y ago
Install on a 2014 device? Yes you can but it is so slow - it cannot be a daily driver.
pjmlp 7y ago
My 2009 Asus laptop is running the latest Window 10 Professional just fine.

penagwin 7y ago

Since apple markets their ipados for productivity as an alternative to a MacBook or a windows laptop - I'm not sure Linux can really be included. Simply put - Linux has never been focused on tablet UI UX or that kind of productivity, it's not a technical limitation sure but there's literally 0 polish on any kind of "streamlined tablet experience"

zozbot234 7y ago
> Simply put - Linux has never been focused on tablet UI UX or that kind of productivity Used to be true but not any longer; recent versions of GNOME 3 are now quite usable on tablets (and touch-screen enabled laptops) as long as the bare hardware support is there. Sure, this is largely a side effect of Librem's work on smartphone UX support, but the effect is quite real nonetheless. And Linux on a tablet can achieve things that are quite hard or even impossible on other "mobile-ready" OS's.
ogre_codes 7y ago
Smartphones, tablets, Windows, Macs, Linux... they are all similar products targeting marginally different markets. I use my iPad for the same things I used my Linux desktop for not long ago. There are some things one does better than the other, but ultimately there is much more overlap than differences. The bigger the difference in form factor, the bigger the difference in use cases. Also, less folks forget... Android is Linux.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > I use my iPad for the same things I used my Linux desktop for not long ago. There are some things one does better than the other, but ultimately there is much more overlap than differences. I really really don't get this. I like the iPad, but Apple wants to sell me this idea that the iPad is an actual* computer. It's not. It's a toy computer. It's fun. It's not serious. Stop pretending, Apple. *) An actual computer lets you mark pages as executable.
  - theshrike79 7y ago
    Just because you can't do "actual work" on a toy iPad, it doesn't mean it's useless for everyone. I've done production deployments with an iPad + smart keyboard + blink shell, works just fine.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      > blink shell In other words, you did use an actual computer, but remotely.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  And more folks forget that Android userspace, and Trebelized drivers couldn't care less what kernel is being used.

ckastner 7y ago

> When you compare it to Android where you're lucky to get 18 months support it comes out ahead Google keeps their own hardware updated quite well, I liked the monthly security updates. With regards to the rest of the tablet market, basically only Samsung and Lenovo are left, and Samsung lost me as a customer a long time ago. I've been looking at the iPad Air 3 recently and while it looks nice, I just fell in love with the Apple pencil. The fact that they update even their ancient hardware is just a huge plus -- that's commitment to the customer.

sanbor 7y ago
Google advertises that will provide updates for 3 years for Pixel 3a [1]. I think it should be at least 5 years. [1] https://www.androidcentral.com/pixel-3a-does-one-more-thing-nobody-talking-about-kills-market-pixel-4 https://www.androidcentral.com/pixel-3a-does-one-more-thing-...
- benologist 7y ago
  I think they should be made to provide updates for all Android devices while they continue to sell devices with Android and some timeframe beyond. In both Google's and Apple's case they can easily commit to supporting all devices for as long as they commit to selling devices with these operating systems. Imagine the travesty if Microsoft could turn off Windows updates like this and write off general purpose computers just a few years old or even five years old per Apple. This is a joke, we should not be making exceptions for Google or Apple, their software should not be allowed to render 10s or 100s of millions of competent devices obsolete annually. This is anti-consumer and stupidly-bad for the environment, and we can see from Windows it is entirely optional and we can see from their $100+ billion in savings each, that Google and Apple could do it too.
  - bscphil 7y ago
    I agree 100% for phones sold through the Google Play store. Offer security updates for 100% of their phones indefinitely. Stop the automatic feature updates when the phone becomes slow enough that the new Android version would be a downgrade, but still make it available to users who want to manually upgrade it. The fact that single individuals in their spare time have been doing ROMs for devices that achieve this for years proves that this isn't the maintenance burden it's sometimes made out to be. The device tree stuff means that even closed source modules aren't that bad to deal with these days.

Analemma_ 7y ago

In Apple's defense, the SOCs on iPads are improving much, much faster than PC chips. Intel chips have been getting faster at something like 5% per year for the last decade, compared to 50% for Apple's A-series. So I think supporting 5 years worth of iPad devices is somewhat comparable to supporting 20 years worth of PC hardware: in both cases it's about a 100x performance difference between the bottom and top, and beyond that I imagine it's not worth it to try and tune an OS for both.

zmk_ 7y ago
Microsoft supported Windows XP for 12 years, Windows 7 for 10 years (+4 years if you are willing to pay for extended support). During the lifespan of XP the Moore's law was very much working.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  The big difference here is Windows XP and Windows 7 had nearly static feature-sets over their lifetimes (or in the case of XP, SP 3 quickly became the baseline). For the vast majority, Windows XP that shipped with your computer was the same for the lifetime of that product. iOS changes features every year, often quite significantly. The challenge is whether the next version of Windows supported your hardware and this was often not the case. If your OEM had funky components and didn't want to update the drivers to the new version of Windows you were SOL. Windows has changes a LOT since XP/ Windows 7 and their update model is more like iOS than XP now so it's hard to use the old model as a baseline.
  - zmk_ 7y ago
    The OP said that Apple doesn't have to support older devices because they are antiquated as far as performance goes. So I gave an example where software was supported for far longer during bigger increases in performance. You are saying that as long as the OEM updates drivers for components support is possible. I agree. This is a reason why Android is often not updated even in the modding community (Qualcomm is not releasing drivers). If only Apple was responsible for both the software and hardware... Oh wait...

mucosal1 7y ago

Install on a 2014 device? Yes you can but it is so slow - it cannot be a daily driver.

pjmlp 7y ago

My 2009 Asus laptop is running the latest Window 10 Professional just fine.