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> In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. This is a flawed assumption. The EU referendum absolutely was an

> In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. This is a flawed assumption. The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Nowhere does it say that direct democracy requires a specific set of questions to be asked. Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Politics does not work like that and neither does life.

ceejayoz 7y ago
> The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. > Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Perhaps, but that's why the people have elected representatives, who are very clearly saying the no-deal approach isn't acceptable. Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding".
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  > Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. The spirit of the referendum, legally binding or not, is direct democracy in action. Regardless of what you believe, it would be a travesty to ignore the will of the people, hard as it may be to carry out their command to leave the EU. > Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding". Now if you believe the referendum was just 'an opinion poll', and no deal is also by far the most popular option right now[0]: Even if you disagree with it, Boris trying to push no deal is legitimate if you accept the referendum is legitimate. [0] https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-rem/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-pa...
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. I think you've accidentally linked to a poll of just Conservative party members or something along those lines. Here's the corresponding poll of Labour members: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-re/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-v... and Lib Dems: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democrats-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-remai/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democra... A better set of polls appears to be here, with 77 polls instead of two, and across the entire populace instead of individual parties. Remain's beating Leave at the moment (and has been consistently). Since you're interested in the Will of the People, here you go: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referen...
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      > The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. Why not? Losers consent is a part of democracy and life. However I will admit I cited a poor source, it was not my intention to be deceptive. The thing is, the will of the people is what the referendum said at the time, nothing else. If it's changed, so be it, but the first result must be implemented first. > If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote? The question is also extremely suspect. It's not asking what the current opinion is, it's saying if we do it all again. These are different. It'd be great if all votes could be done with the benefit of hindsight, but to my knowledge nobody has invented a time machine yet.
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        > Losers consent is a part of democracy and life. Oh, come on. When Labour wins an election the entire Tory party doesn't switch over to their side of things. Arguing that Remain has dropped to 4-6% of the populace is not reasonable. > The thing is, the will of the people is what the referendum said at the time, nothing else. What law established this? This is particularly disingenuous given the explicitly non-binding nature of the first referendum. You were perfectly happy to cite current opinion polls when you thought they supported your will of the people argument. > It'd be great if all votes could be done with the benefit of hindsight, but to my knowledge nobody has invented a time machine yet. A second referendum can absolutely be done with hindsight. "Gee, that didn't go well."
simias 7y ago
>Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. You're making it sound as if deciding what to do with the Irish border is some super intricate detail that nobody could anticipate. Enforcing borders (for immigration) was probably the #1 talking point during the referendum campaign, yet it turns out that nobody knows how to actually implement it. I agree that the referendum was, de facto, an exercise in direct democracy. Yet it's also pretty clear that it failed to capture exactly the will of the people because there doesn't seem to be a majority behind any concrete proposal for leaving the union.
- disgruntledphd2 7y ago
  Nobody cared about the Irish border. I remember talking to my boss a few days after (he's English, I'm Irish) and I mentioned the North. He assumed that I meant the North of England, rather than Northern Ireland, which just goes to show how little thought was given to Northern Ireland during the referendum.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    Yup. Ireland is by far the biggest issue we've got to deal with. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a soft border (with CCTV cameras only and no hard barriers) is our only option. The problem is no govt. has the ability to set this all up within six weeks and is what they should've been doing these past three years rather than endlessly bike-shedding the little things and ignoring the biggest issues at hand... Legitimate traffic which is the vast majority will have to go over official channels anyway, so it's feasible that moving goods across the border could be as simple as registering your vehicle and declaring the contents. It's not perfect, but the alternatives are much worse.

ceejayoz 7y ago

> The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. > Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Perhaps, but that's why the people have elected representatives, who are very clearly saying the no-deal approach isn't acceptable. Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding".

cameronbrown 7y ago
> Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. The spirit of the referendum, legally binding or not, is direct democracy in action. Regardless of what you believe, it would be a travesty to ignore the will of the people, hard as it may be to carry out their command to leave the EU. > Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding". Now if you believe the referendum was just 'an opinion poll', and no deal is also by far the most popular option right now[0]: Even if you disagree with it, Boris trying to push no deal is legitimate if you accept the referendum is legitimate. [0] https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-rem/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-pa...
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. I think you've accidentally linked to a poll of just Conservative party members or something along those lines. Here's the corresponding poll of Labour members: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-re/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-v... and Lib Dems: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democrats-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-remai/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democra... A better set of polls appears to be here, with 77 polls instead of two, and across the entire populace instead of individual parties. Remain's beating Leave at the moment (and has been consistently). Since you're interested in the Will of the People, here you go: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referen...
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    > The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. Why not? Losers consent is a part of democracy and life. However I will admit I cited a poor source, it was not my intention to be deceptive. The thing is, the will of the people is what the referendum said at the time, nothing else. If it's changed, so be it, but the first result must be implemented first. > If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote? The question is also extremely suspect. It's not asking what the current opinion is, it's saying if we do it all again. These are different. It'd be great if all votes could be done with the benefit of hindsight, but to my knowledge nobody has invented a time machine yet.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      > Losers consent is a part of democracy and life. Oh, come on. When Labour wins an election the entire Tory party doesn't switch over to their side of things. Arguing that Remain has dropped to 4-6% of the populace is not reasonable. > The thing is, the will of the people is what the referendum said at the time, nothing else. What law established this? This is particularly disingenuous given the explicitly non-binding nature of the first referendum. You were perfectly happy to cite current opinion polls when you thought they supported your will of the people argument. > It'd be great if all votes could be done with the benefit of hindsight, but to my knowledge nobody has invented a time machine yet. A second referendum can absolutely be done with hindsight. "Gee, that didn't go well."

simias 7y ago

>Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. You're making it sound as if deciding what to do with the Irish border is some super intricate detail that nobody could anticipate. Enforcing borders (for immigration) was probably the #1 talking point during the referendum campaign, yet it turns out that nobody knows how to actually implement it. I agree that the referendum was, de facto, an exercise in direct democracy. Yet it's also pretty clear that it failed to capture exactly the will of the people because there doesn't seem to be a majority behind any concrete proposal for leaving the union.

disgruntledphd2 7y ago
Nobody cared about the Irish border. I remember talking to my boss a few days after (he's English, I'm Irish) and I mentioned the North. He assumed that I meant the North of England, rather than Northern Ireland, which just goes to show how little thought was given to Northern Ireland during the referendum.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Yup. Ireland is by far the biggest issue we've got to deal with. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a soft border (with CCTV cameras only and no hard barriers) is our only option. The problem is no govt. has the ability to set this all up within six weeks and is what they should've been doing these past three years rather than endlessly bike-shedding the little things and ignoring the biggest issues at hand... Legitimate traffic which is the vast majority will have to go over official channels anyway, so it's feasible that moving goods across the border could be as simple as registering your vehicle and declaring the contents. It's not perfect, but the alternatives are much worse.