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>David Cameron made one of the biggest political errors in modern history here. By asking people to have a voice instead of deciding for them?? Direct democra

by jazzyk 7y ago

>David Cameron made one of the biggest political errors in modern history here. By asking people to have a voice instead of deciding for them?? Direct democracy can work very well - just look at Switzerland, which is the envy of the world when it comes to governance. It may/may not be scalable, but important decisions like EU membership should be decided by the people, not the elite.

ceejayoz 7y ago
> By asking people to have a voice instead of deciding for them?? The question posed was simply "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" No implementation details, no specifics, no timeline, and not binding. In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. (Citizens need only garner 50k signatures to force a vote for/against the specific law implementing a deal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_referendum) Right now, they'd be voting on "given our inability to strike a deal, should we take a no-deal exit?", which I don't think anyone can really argue would get the same 52% the more general Brexit referendum did.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  > In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. This is a flawed assumption. The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Nowhere does it say that direct democracy requires a specific set of questions to be asked. Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Politics does not work like that and neither does life.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. > Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Perhaps, but that's why the people have elected representatives, who are very clearly saying the no-deal approach isn't acceptable. Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding".
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      > Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. The spirit of the referendum, legally binding or not, is direct democracy in action. Regardless of what you believe, it would be a travesty to ignore the will of the people, hard as it may be to carry out their command to leave the EU. > Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding". Now if you believe the referendum was just 'an opinion poll', and no deal is also by far the most popular option right now[0]: Even if you disagree with it, Boris trying to push no deal is legitimate if you accept the referendum is legitimate. [0] https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-rem/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-pa...
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. I think you've accidentally linked to a poll of just Conservative party members or something along those lines. Here's the corresponding poll of Labour members: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-re/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-v... and Lib Dems: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democrats-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-remai/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democra... A better set of polls appears to be here, with 77 polls instead of two, and across the entire populace instead of individual parties. Remain's beating Leave at the moment (and has been consistently). Since you're interested in the Will of the People, here you go: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referen...
  - simias 7y ago
    >Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. You're making it sound as if deciding what to do with the Irish border is some super intricate detail that nobody could anticipate. Enforcing borders (for immigration) was probably the #1 talking point during the referendum campaign, yet it turns out that nobody knows how to actually implement it. I agree that the referendum was, de facto, an exercise in direct democracy. Yet it's also pretty clear that it failed to capture exactly the will of the people because there doesn't seem to be a majority behind any concrete proposal for leaving the union.
    - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
      Nobody cared about the Irish border. I remember talking to my boss a few days after (he's English, I'm Irish) and I mentioned the North. He assumed that I meant the North of England, rather than Northern Ireland, which just goes to show how little thought was given to Northern Ireland during the referendum.
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        Yup. Ireland is by far the biggest issue we've got to deal with. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a soft border (with CCTV cameras only and no hard barriers) is our only option. The problem is no govt. has the ability to set this all up within six weeks and is what they should've been doing these past three years rather than endlessly bike-shedding the little things and ignoring the biggest issues at hand... Legitimate traffic which is the vast majority will have to go over official channels anyway, so it's feasible that moving goods across the border could be as simple as registering your vehicle and declaring the contents. It's not perfect, but the alternatives are much worse.
lagadu 7y ago
That's why there are elections, the vast majority of the electorate really isn't equipped to deal with all the details and ramifications of what a big decision like this entails: therefore we choose representatives whose ideas we agree with so that they, along with experts of choice, can deep-dive into the consequences of each decision and make appropriate choices. For example: ask me about agricultural policy and you'll find out why I should have no business in making any sort of significant decisions about it. It's the same reason we go to a doctor when we're sick or to an architect when we want to design a house: we go to someone whose job is to know how to do something properly. In the Swiss model you'll never find single, completely vague and as wide-reaching questions like the one that lead to brexit.
kitd 7y ago
> just look at Switzerland You are right that Switzerland has a long history of direct democracy. But the reason it works at all is that people vote whether to accept specific proposals that have already been drawn up. This was the biggest flaw in the Brexit referendum. As formulated, it was way too woolly and covered a wide range of possible plans. At which point, some rabid Brexiteer chimes in and says "No, Brexit was very clearly defined as ... ", and then proceeds to reel off their pet opinions-as-facts. QED.
rsynnott 7y ago
In general, Swiss referenda are fairly well-thought-out; the voter knows what they're voting for. Interestingly, one recent case where it was _not_ well-specified or not well-thought-out caused a bit of a crisis, and in effect lead to the government fudging a non-solution. This case also involved the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiative#Implementation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiat...

by jazzyk 7y ago

ceejayoz 7y ago

> By asking people to have a voice instead of deciding for them?? The question posed was simply "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" No implementation details, no specifics, no timeline, and not binding. In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. (Citizens need only garner 50k signatures to force a vote for/against the specific law implementing a deal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_referendum) Right now, they'd be voting on "given our inability to strike a deal, should we take a no-deal exit?", which I don't think anyone can really argue would get the same 52% the more general Brexit referendum did.

cameronbrown 7y ago
> In the Swiss model, you'd have subsequent direct votes on specific plans once decided upon. This is a flawed assumption. The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Nowhere does it say that direct democracy requires a specific set of questions to be asked. Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Politics does not work like that and neither does life.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > The EU referendum absolutely was an exercise in direct democracy. Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. > Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. Perhaps, but that's why the people have elected representatives, who are very clearly saying the no-deal approach isn't acceptable. Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding".
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    > Not in the slightest. It was explicitly non-binding on a legal level. It was fundamentally an opinion poll with a large sample size. The spirit of the referendum, legally binding or not, is direct democracy in action. Regardless of what you believe, it would be a travesty to ignore the will of the people, hard as it may be to carry out their command to leave the EU. > Claiming the Brexit referendum gives the PM the right to do anything he wants is silly. It's like claiming "we should fund the NHS" is carte blanche to have the NHS euthanize everyone under 40 because "the people approved the funding". Now if you believe the referendum was just 'an opinion poll', and no deal is also by far the most popular option right now[0]: Even if you disagree with it, Boris trying to push no deal is legitimate if you accept the referendum is legitimate. [0] https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-rem/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-conservative-pa...
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      The poll you cite indicates a 4 to 6% support for cancelling Brexit. It seems... unlikely... that 90% of Remain voters have now switched over to Leave. I think you've accidentally linked to a poll of just Conservative party members or something along those lines. Here's the corresponding poll of Labour members: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-re/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-labour-partys-v... and Lib Dems: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democrats-view-on-brexit-to-go-ahead-on-october-31-even-if-it-means-no-deal-to-delay-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-be-put-to-a-referendum-or-to-cancel-brexit-and-remai/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-the-liberal-democra... A better set of polls appears to be here, with 77 polls instead of two, and across the entire populace instead of individual parties. Remain's beating Leave at the moment (and has been consistently). Since you're interested in the Will of the People, here you go: https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referen...
- simias 7y ago
  >Breakup from the EU is so complex that we could not have prepared for it enough to know the ramifications of any options. You're making it sound as if deciding what to do with the Irish border is some super intricate detail that nobody could anticipate. Enforcing borders (for immigration) was probably the #1 talking point during the referendum campaign, yet it turns out that nobody knows how to actually implement it. I agree that the referendum was, de facto, an exercise in direct democracy. Yet it's also pretty clear that it failed to capture exactly the will of the people because there doesn't seem to be a majority behind any concrete proposal for leaving the union.
  - disgruntledphd2 7y ago
    Nobody cared about the Irish border. I remember talking to my boss a few days after (he's English, I'm Irish) and I mentioned the North. He assumed that I meant the North of England, rather than Northern Ireland, which just goes to show how little thought was given to Northern Ireland during the referendum.
    - cameronbrown 7y ago
      Yup. Ireland is by far the biggest issue we've got to deal with. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a soft border (with CCTV cameras only and no hard barriers) is our only option. The problem is no govt. has the ability to set this all up within six weeks and is what they should've been doing these past three years rather than endlessly bike-shedding the little things and ignoring the biggest issues at hand... Legitimate traffic which is the vast majority will have to go over official channels anyway, so it's feasible that moving goods across the border could be as simple as registering your vehicle and declaring the contents. It's not perfect, but the alternatives are much worse.

lagadu 7y ago

That's why there are elections, the vast majority of the electorate really isn't equipped to deal with all the details and ramifications of what a big decision like this entails: therefore we choose representatives whose ideas we agree with so that they, along with experts of choice, can deep-dive into the consequences of each decision and make appropriate choices. For example: ask me about agricultural policy and you'll find out why I should have no business in making any sort of significant decisions about it. It's the same reason we go to a doctor when we're sick or to an architect when we want to design a house: we go to someone whose job is to know how to do something properly. In the Swiss model you'll never find single, completely vague and as wide-reaching questions like the one that lead to brexit.

kitd 7y ago

> just look at Switzerland You are right that Switzerland has a long history of direct democracy. But the reason it works at all is that people vote whether to accept specific proposals that have already been drawn up. This was the biggest flaw in the Brexit referendum. As formulated, it was way too woolly and covered a wide range of possible plans. At which point, some rabid Brexiteer chimes in and says "No, Brexit was very clearly defined as ... ", and then proceeds to reel off their pet opinions-as-facts. QED.

rsynnott 7y ago

In general, Swiss referenda are fairly well-thought-out; the voter knows what they're voting for. Interestingly, one recent case where it was _not_ well-specified or not well-thought-out caused a bit of a crisis, and in effect lead to the government fudging a non-solution. This case also involved the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiative#Implementation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiat...