7 ms·

What you're describing sounds like industry-specific anecdotes from a very common, cross-industry reality about non technical users.

jon-wood 7y ago
I'd revise that to the far more irritating segment of users who think they're more technical than they really are. Actual non technical users are fine, because they generally know when they don't understand a thing. The thinks-their-technical users will bravely throw in whatever phrases they've heard mentioned in relation to a completely unrelated problem.
- xiconfjs 7y ago
  Amen.
- apecat 7y ago
  What, will you refuse to help me if I call you in deep distress and said that "xcode command line tools is failing to update because of the nginx 503 errors clearly visible in Safari"
  - glitchc 7y ago
    Yes
    - apecat 7y ago
      well, you're not wrong
  - dspillett 7y ago
    I wouldn't absolutely refuse to help, but if you are like some users I've dealt with and you keep repeating that instead of answering specific questions I've actually asked† then I'll drop the call and mark the support ticket as paused‡ until the information requested is provided. [†] Q: can you check A, User: why if the problem is Z? Q: could you do B and tell me what the response is?, User: but I'm sure the problem is Z, Q: what version of C do you have?, User: that shouldn't' matter because the problem is Z, ..." [‡] meaning it is not running against any SLA clocks The two matters could be separate symptoms of the same underlying problem for which more information is needed. Admittedly in this case you would probably be right and the tool is likely failing to update because it is getting the same 503:Overloaded responses from the http server, but that is not necessarily the case (perhaps the server is agent sniffing and provides a different, more human interpretable, response to requests from browsers, the response for humans is proxied by this server from another and that is currently overloaded, so the update tool isn't getting the same 503 responses that you are).
- technofiend 7y ago
  It's definitely not unique to Hollywood... Before I switched to infrastructure development I ran a Linux engineering group and among other things handled production support escalations. The job was often finding the actual problem while gently dissuading my customer the issue wasn't a pet theory and/or something they just Googled. In fact sometimes the escalations came specifically so I could weigh in on root cause after joining the bridge because the various parties couldn't agree. A favorite was someone to run free and declare the system was "out of memory and must be swapping". It recurred so often I think that theory passed from group to group like a treasured heirloom until we wrote a FAQ on the subject. Fortunately in my opinion getting ops and development to work together built mutual respect for respective skill sets.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bpyne 7y ago
  That's the super-user syndrome. They know enough to get themselves into a bind but not enough to get themselves out. It's difficult just trying to get an accurate description of the problem because they lace the description with theories about what the cause is. "Please just describe the problem and, if possible, how you reproduce it. No, just describe the problem. What's happening when you press the button? No, just the problem! Not what you think is causing it." It's a conundrum because good super-users can help less technical people in their groups. But, their issues tend to take more time to unravel.
  - btown 7y ago
    I imagine this is especially prevalent for editors because they are expected to be the technical ones in a room of high-ego professionals. Every second of their day is them being judged on how super-user they are.
  - tunesmith 7y ago
    I tend to associate "super-user" with an admin who knows what they are doing. Back in the 90's we called these folks "power users".
    - bpyne 7y ago
      Yup. Power user was the name we used back then. If you had a good one, (s)he could save you support time.
- fortran77 7y ago
  I don't understand this. > The thinks-their-technical users English was not my first language and sometimes I get tripped up. What does this mean?
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    It means users who believe themselves to be highly technical, but are not.
  - givinguflac 7y ago
    It means someone who believes they have a high technical ability but in reality has a low to mid ability and know some relevant words. Typically they apply them incorrectly when describing a problem or solution.
  - lucascantor 7y ago
    I believe it’s misspelled, but meant to be “think-they’re-technical” as in, describing users who think they are technical.
  - detritus 7y ago
    I think parent meant "Thinks-they're-technical users", as in the users in question believe themselves to have more knowledge about the domain than they actually do.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    That looks like a misspelling that should have been "thinks-they're-technical users" i.e. users who think they're technical but aren't as technical as they think they are.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - bxparks 7y ago
    It was supposed to be "thinks they're technical". In other words, people who think they are more technical than they really are.
  - 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dmd 7y ago
http://3e.org/xy.png http://3e.org/xy.png
baxter001 7y ago
On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" In one case a member of the Upper, and in the other a member of the Lower, House put this question. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage - Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), ch. 5 "Difference Engine No. 1"
- beat 7y ago
  If you want to use incorrect data to get correct answers, you need a human. That's one of the fundamental differences between humans and computers.
  - archi42 7y ago
    Floating point numbers are trying hard to rectify this ;-)
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > If you want to use incorrect data to get correct answers, you need a human. More often, that just gets answers that are incorrect in ways other than (sometimes, in addition to, othertimes, instead of) those explicable by the incorrect data.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question" is my all-time favorite way to say "What is wrong with this clueless dipshit."
- human20190310 7y ago
  The question makes sense rhetorically, to establish that the machine is still only as good as its operator, just faster.
- SilasX 7y ago
  On slashdot, someone proposed the theory that this is a good question to ask if you have rational worldview, and know this kind of thing should be possible, but aren't sure if you're dealing with a scam artist who will tell you what you want to hear.
tlogan 7y ago
Working with support issues for at lest 20 years... My take on this is that there are two types of non-technical users: - stupid ones - intelligent one The intelligent ones know what they don't know. Or at least they understand what is their area of expertise. They focus on explanation of the problem and they do not make random conclusions. The stupid ones do not know what they do not know and, of course, they think they are smart and know everything. It is so hard to work with them. It is interesting that education level, nationality, race, etc. does not give any reasonable indication whether a non-technical users is intelligent or not.
munificent 7y ago
That's generally true, but there's a more specific affliction you sometimes run into that the parent comment is referring to. There are some single software programs so big and complex that you can build entire careers out of them. People who do that become wizards within that software suite, and then incorrectly generalize that to believing they know everything about computers. When really, they are Photoshop jockeys, Avid editors, Maya artists, etc. and they are mostly lost outside of those applications. If you haven't worked in creative fields like video you may not have run into them, but they are definitely a breed. (Developers fall prey to this sometimes too, but our job tends to require us to use a variety of tools and the underlying operating system itself, so we do end up with a greater breadth of experience.)

jon-wood 7y ago

I'd revise that to the far more irritating segment of users who think they're more technical than they really are. Actual non technical users are fine, because they generally know when they don't understand a thing. The thinks-their-technical users will bravely throw in whatever phrases they've heard mentioned in relation to a completely unrelated problem.

xiconfjs 7y ago
Amen.
apecat 7y ago
What, will you refuse to help me if I call you in deep distress and said that "xcode command line tools is failing to update because of the nginx 503 errors clearly visible in Safari"
- glitchc 7y ago
  Yes
  - apecat 7y ago
    well, you're not wrong
- dspillett 7y ago
  I wouldn't absolutely refuse to help, but if you are like some users I've dealt with and you keep repeating that instead of answering specific questions I've actually asked† then I'll drop the call and mark the support ticket as paused‡ until the information requested is provided. [†] Q: can you check A, User: why if the problem is Z? Q: could you do B and tell me what the response is?, User: but I'm sure the problem is Z, Q: what version of C do you have?, User: that shouldn't' matter because the problem is Z, ..." [‡] meaning it is not running against any SLA clocks The two matters could be separate symptoms of the same underlying problem for which more information is needed. Admittedly in this case you would probably be right and the tool is likely failing to update because it is getting the same 503:Overloaded responses from the http server, but that is not necessarily the case (perhaps the server is agent sniffing and provides a different, more human interpretable, response to requests from browsers, the response for humans is proxied by this server from another and that is currently overloaded, so the update tool isn't getting the same 503 responses that you are).
technofiend 7y ago
It's definitely not unique to Hollywood... Before I switched to infrastructure development I ran a Linux engineering group and among other things handled production support escalations. The job was often finding the actual problem while gently dissuading my customer the issue wasn't a pet theory and/or something they just Googled. In fact sometimes the escalations came specifically so I could weigh in on root cause after joining the bridge because the various parties couldn't agree. A favorite was someone to run free and declare the system was "out of memory and must be swapping". It recurred so often I think that theory passed from group to group like a treasured heirloom until we wrote a FAQ on the subject. Fortunately in my opinion getting ops and development to work together built mutual respect for respective skill sets.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bpyne 7y ago
That's the super-user syndrome. They know enough to get themselves into a bind but not enough to get themselves out. It's difficult just trying to get an accurate description of the problem because they lace the description with theories about what the cause is. "Please just describe the problem and, if possible, how you reproduce it. No, just describe the problem. What's happening when you press the button? No, just the problem! Not what you think is causing it." It's a conundrum because good super-users can help less technical people in their groups. But, their issues tend to take more time to unravel.
- btown 7y ago
  I imagine this is especially prevalent for editors because they are expected to be the technical ones in a room of high-ego professionals. Every second of their day is them being judged on how super-user they are.
- tunesmith 7y ago
  I tend to associate "super-user" with an admin who knows what they are doing. Back in the 90's we called these folks "power users".
  - bpyne 7y ago
    Yup. Power user was the name we used back then. If you had a good one, (s)he could save you support time.
fortran77 7y ago
I don't understand this. > The thinks-their-technical users English was not my first language and sometimes I get tripped up. What does this mean?
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  It means users who believe themselves to be highly technical, but are not.
- givinguflac 7y ago
  It means someone who believes they have a high technical ability but in reality has a low to mid ability and know some relevant words. Typically they apply them incorrectly when describing a problem or solution.
- lucascantor 7y ago
  I believe it’s misspelled, but meant to be “think-they’re-technical” as in, describing users who think they are technical.
- detritus 7y ago
  I think parent meant "Thinks-they're-technical users", as in the users in question believe themselves to have more knowledge about the domain than they actually do.
- ummonk 7y ago
  That looks like a misspelling that should have been "thinks-they're-technical users" i.e. users who think they're technical but aren't as technical as they think they are.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bxparks 7y ago
  It was supposed to be "thinks they're technical". In other words, people who think they are more technical than they really are.
- 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

dmd 7y ago

http://3e.org/xy.png http://3e.org/xy.png

baxter001 7y ago

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" In one case a member of the Upper, and in the other a member of the Lower, House put this question. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage - Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), ch. 5 "Difference Engine No. 1"

beat 7y ago
If you want to use incorrect data to get correct answers, you need a human. That's one of the fundamental differences between humans and computers.
- archi42 7y ago
  Floating point numbers are trying hard to rectify this ;-)
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > If you want to use incorrect data to get correct answers, you need a human. More often, that just gets answers that are incorrect in ways other than (sometimes, in addition to, othertimes, instead of) those explicable by the incorrect data.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
"I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question" is my all-time favorite way to say "What is wrong with this clueless dipshit."
human20190310 7y ago
The question makes sense rhetorically, to establish that the machine is still only as good as its operator, just faster.
SilasX 7y ago
On slashdot, someone proposed the theory that this is a good question to ask if you have rational worldview, and know this kind of thing should be possible, but aren't sure if you're dealing with a scam artist who will tell you what you want to hear.

tlogan 7y ago

Working with support issues for at lest 20 years... My take on this is that there are two types of non-technical users: - stupid ones - intelligent one The intelligent ones know what they don't know. Or at least they understand what is their area of expertise. They focus on explanation of the problem and they do not make random conclusions. The stupid ones do not know what they do not know and, of course, they think they are smart and know everything. It is so hard to work with them. It is interesting that education level, nationality, race, etc. does not give any reasonable indication whether a non-technical users is intelligent or not.

munificent 7y ago

That's generally true, but there's a more specific affliction you sometimes run into that the parent comment is referring to. There are some single software programs so big and complex that you can build entire careers out of them. People who do that become wizards within that software suite, and then incorrectly generalize that to believing they know everything about computers. When really, they are Photoshop jockeys, Avid editors, Maya artists, etc. and they are mostly lost outside of those applications. If you haven't worked in creative fields like video you may not have run into them, but they are definitely a breed. (Developers fall prey to this sometimes too, but our job tends to require us to use a variety of tools and the underlying operating system itself, so we do end up with a greater breadth of experience.)