5 ms·

if there’s no nicotine, then who cares? Magic the Gathering cards and pogs were addicting back in the day, but kids could still buy them.

bsder 7y ago
MtG doesn't have any health downsides other than possibly being a marker for being too sedentary. Vaping has direct health consequences over "not vaping" even without nicotine. The "safety" of vaping is predicated on being compared to "smoking cigarettes". If a bunch of non-smokers picks up vaping, that calculus evaporates. Consequently, selling vaping to a non-smoking, teenage market should come under extreme scrutiny. In addition, everything about the vaping experience is designed to be addicting. I had a friend who believed exactly as you do until he tried one of the flavored, non-nicotine pods. They have a very strong attraction.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
If they have nicotine, then who cares either? Nicotine is addictive when combined with other substances in regular cigarettes. Not as a stand-alone chemical. (Of course avoiding getting any kind of particulate in your lungs is better than getting it.)
- navd 7y ago
  I'm not sure why I see this popping up throughout the comments. Nicotine BY ITSELF is extremely addictive.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    Nicotine by itself doesn’t seem categorically different than caffeine (coffee, tea, yerba mate, guarana, ...) or other stimulants (khat, coca leaves, ginseng, cinnamon, ...). Yes these are generally addictive, but not necessarily life ruining. Dosage, frequency of use, etc. matters a lot. Frequent long-term use of any stimulant is probably not great for you; e.g. my mother has a pretty severe coffee addiction (she typically drinks 4–8 cups per day), and gets headaches and shakes if she goes a couple days without. But compared to other kinds of drugs, it doesn’t seem like such a huge public health threat that we should freak out about it.
    - navd 7y ago
      I think you’re partly right. However comparing nicotine to caffeine is like comparing apples to oranges. They are similar, but nicotine affects the brain in a much more different (and arguably more addictive) way than caffeine does.
    - Simon_says 7y ago
      Technically, your example shows that not using coffee is not great for your mom.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Maybe because of this list of research papers collected by Gwern claiming that nicotine alone doesn't have strong addictive properties (not beyond caffeine level): https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine#addictiveness https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine#addictiveness. Apparently in most popular, educational and health-related communication, nicotine is treated as synonym to tobacco, leading to confusion.
    - codr7 7y ago
      I've smoked tobacco for 30-ish years. Organic, additive-free tobacco is definitely less problematic for me. Lately I've been growing my own Nicotiana Rustica [0], which contains plenty more nicotine than regular tobacco but is nowhere near as addictive. I know what I would do if I was selling drugs and didn't give a crap about anything but profits, I would make them as addictive as possible. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana_rustica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana_rustica
      - girvo 7y ago
        How do you find the Rustica? I wanted to have a crack at growing it in my entheogen garden
        cwkoss 7y ago
        Seeds are available at most 'ethnobotanical' online stores. Tiny seeds: can get hundreds for a few bucks. Pretty easy to grow too.
        codr7 7y ago
        Before I started growing rustica; I ordered a roll of real mapacho from south america, which was very nice. I've only tried sun-dried leaves from my own garden yet, which isn't quite as exciting. The nicotine boost is still the same though. The idea is to grow enough to make my own mapacho paste and ferment a roll for a while. By itself it's pretty harsh, and trippy because of the nicotine. I prefer it mixed with Cannabis and/or regular tobacco. They need nutrients, lots of nutrients (epsom salt works like magic). And loose, sandy soil or the initial roots won't go anywhere.
- hnick 7y ago
  To take it a step further (since it's something I've thought about), even if it is highly addictive, does it matter? It's an obvious problem with tobacco products for health reasons. But AFAIK pure nicotine isn't particularly bad compared to many things we consume, apart from the withdrawal effects. Though perhaps I'm misinformed there.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
I do not think you can develop a physiological dependence to Magic the Gathering cards. Additionally, the cards do have some market value, so it was more of a poor use of money than throwing money away.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  Are you claiming that people develop physiological dependence to non-nicotine pods? Nicotine is very addictive, but that's why the parent poster said "if there’s no nicotine, then who cares?" People may get all kinds of strong weird habits with oral fixation e.g. biting nails and such, but that's generally not considered as physiological dependence.
insulanus 7y ago
Because you don't breathe playing cards into your lungs?
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Nicotine is not what mainly makes smoking addictive or even dangerous. There are plenty of bad chemicals that are much worse than nicotine that vaping could (and shouldn’t) include.

bsder 7y ago

MtG doesn't have any health downsides other than possibly being a marker for being too sedentary. Vaping has direct health consequences over "not vaping" even without nicotine. The "safety" of vaping is predicated on being compared to "smoking cigarettes". If a bunch of non-smokers picks up vaping, that calculus evaporates. Consequently, selling vaping to a non-smoking, teenage market should come under extreme scrutiny. In addition, everything about the vaping experience is designed to be addicting. I had a friend who believed exactly as you do until he tried one of the flavored, non-nicotine pods. They have a very strong attraction.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

If they have nicotine, then who cares either? Nicotine is addictive when combined with other substances in regular cigarettes. Not as a stand-alone chemical. (Of course avoiding getting any kind of particulate in your lungs is better than getting it.)

navd 7y ago
I'm not sure why I see this popping up throughout the comments. Nicotine BY ITSELF is extremely addictive.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Nicotine by itself doesn’t seem categorically different than caffeine (coffee, tea, yerba mate, guarana, ...) or other stimulants (khat, coca leaves, ginseng, cinnamon, ...). Yes these are generally addictive, but not necessarily life ruining. Dosage, frequency of use, etc. matters a lot. Frequent long-term use of any stimulant is probably not great for you; e.g. my mother has a pretty severe coffee addiction (she typically drinks 4–8 cups per day), and gets headaches and shakes if she goes a couple days without. But compared to other kinds of drugs, it doesn’t seem like such a huge public health threat that we should freak out about it.
  - navd 7y ago
    I think you’re partly right. However comparing nicotine to caffeine is like comparing apples to oranges. They are similar, but nicotine affects the brain in a much more different (and arguably more addictive) way than caffeine does.
  - Simon_says 7y ago
    Technically, your example shows that not using coffee is not great for your mom.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Maybe because of this list of research papers collected by Gwern claiming that nicotine alone doesn't have strong addictive properties (not beyond caffeine level): https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine#addictiveness https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine#addictiveness. Apparently in most popular, educational and health-related communication, nicotine is treated as synonym to tobacco, leading to confusion.
  - codr7 7y ago
    I've smoked tobacco for 30-ish years. Organic, additive-free tobacco is definitely less problematic for me. Lately I've been growing my own Nicotiana Rustica [0], which contains plenty more nicotine than regular tobacco but is nowhere near as addictive. I know what I would do if I was selling drugs and didn't give a crap about anything but profits, I would make them as addictive as possible. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana_rustica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana_rustica
    - girvo 7y ago
      How do you find the Rustica? I wanted to have a crack at growing it in my entheogen garden
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        Seeds are available at most 'ethnobotanical' online stores. Tiny seeds: can get hundreds for a few bucks. Pretty easy to grow too.
      - codr7 7y ago
        Before I started growing rustica; I ordered a roll of real mapacho from south america, which was very nice. I've only tried sun-dried leaves from my own garden yet, which isn't quite as exciting. The nicotine boost is still the same though. The idea is to grow enough to make my own mapacho paste and ferment a roll for a while. By itself it's pretty harsh, and trippy because of the nicotine. I prefer it mixed with Cannabis and/or regular tobacco. They need nutrients, lots of nutrients (epsom salt works like magic). And loose, sandy soil or the initial roots won't go anywhere.
hnick 7y ago
To take it a step further (since it's something I've thought about), even if it is highly addictive, does it matter? It's an obvious problem with tobacco products for health reasons. But AFAIK pure nicotine isn't particularly bad compared to many things we consume, apart from the withdrawal effects. Though perhaps I'm misinformed there.

morpheuskafka 7y ago

I do not think you can develop a physiological dependence to Magic the Gathering cards. Additionally, the cards do have some market value, so it was more of a poor use of money than throwing money away.

PeterisP 7y ago
Are you claiming that people develop physiological dependence to non-nicotine pods? Nicotine is very addictive, but that's why the parent poster said "if there’s no nicotine, then who cares?" People may get all kinds of strong weird habits with oral fixation e.g. biting nails and such, but that's generally not considered as physiological dependence.

insulanus 7y ago

Because you don't breathe playing cards into your lungs?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

Nicotine is not what mainly makes smoking addictive or even dangerous. There are plenty of bad chemicals that are much worse than nicotine that vaping could (and shouldn’t) include.