4 ms·

I worked in both French and US startups, and the french startup ecosystem felt like cargo cult. Our business school culture is so prevalent, techies are always

I worked in both French and US startups, and the french startup ecosystem felt like cargo cult. Our business school culture is so prevalent, techies are always ignored. Engineers are poorly paid, if not at all. And the rare VCs have zero tech knowledge too, resulting in poor investment choices. It's a cultural problem, and throwing money at it won't solve it.

yaantc 7y ago
I also worked for a US start-up, now in a French one. There's no business school guy in sight, upper management has engineering background. Maybe because the area is very technical? It could be different in the e-business field. In any case, the culture of a start-up is defined in great part by the founders. If you want more techies driven start-ups, you need more techies to found them and not join business school founded ones. For poorly paid engineers, it's true that French engineers salaries are far from the Silicon Valley standard --- which is true for a great part of the US too. Here too grumbling won't help much. To get salaries to increase we need more local demand for techies, and not from inflexible big corporations that will prefer to stall rather than change their salary tables. Well for the VCs, you're the tech expert not them. And if they invest in duds, not your problem right? The issue would be if a good tech idea couldn't find funding, and in the current context I don't think it's the main issue anywhere ;) As for the cultural problem: yes! Having been in SV and in France, I agree that France issue is primarily cultural. Too many people looking for safety first before opportunity. Lots of grumbling but much less moving. And not even getting safety in the end, as big corps are not very nice for old engineer and not the best environment to learn IMHO. There is a lack of luck there: close to the end of the first Internet bubble a lot of engineers, after a delay, had left heir big corps to joint start-ups. Just in time for the big Internet crash... A bad experience that made some very cautious during the next wave. Hopefully this memory will fade. Having a sustainable start-up ecosystem lasting over time, with motivating successes, will help. This requires funding over time.
Toine 7y ago
Agreed.
tasubotadas 7y ago
I have heard to social security laws are strict in France, and thus, after hiring an employee, you are basically stuck with them and can't fire. Could you elaborate on that? How true is the statement above?
- yaantc 7y ago
  Not true, although it's more complicated than in the US. You can't fire someone at will like in the US, you need to justify the decision. Which takes some time and paperwork. Also, it used to be risky as the fired employee could sue and ask for damage, with no legal cap. The later has changed. So you can fire people, I've seen it done a few times, if you have a competent HR it's perfectly doable. You will need to document why and have some justification, and be ready to present your case if challenged. Also, it's possible to let someone go my mutual agreement, with the employee keeping their unemployment benefit (there are limits to prevent abuse). It also eases things when both sides agree there's a mismatch, which often happen. So it's definitely not as fluid as in the US, but not stuck as some people would let you know. You tend to be more cautious about the hiring for sure.
  - ecaradec 7y ago
    Also after hiring you have a trial period that can last up to 8 months during which you can fire at will (with a 1 month notice ).
- arnaudsm 7y ago
  Your statement is mostly true, but you can fire someone for economic reasons. Still, most startups rely on armies of unpaid interns as a workaround.
- pnako 7y ago
  It is mostly true. There is more flexibility for smaller companies, but generally you need to justify firing someone and courts tend to protect employees more. The issue in France is that you basically have tons of small companies that can have exemptions on things like that, taxes, etc. and a few very large companies that can deal with that, but almost nothing in between. Running a 500-employee company in France is basically hell, you get crap from everywhere.
pnako 7y ago
In France, if you are an engineer (Grande Ecole), you go work for companies like EDF, Thales or Safran. If you're BTS/DUT (c'est ca la puissance intellectuelle... bac + 2, les enfants), go work for a small company, preferably outside of Paris. But never work for a bunch of assholes from HEC who are copy/pasting some American ride-sharing or social media startup.
- yaantc 7y ago
  I work in a French start-up with a lot of grandes écoles engineers, and a good deal tier-1 at that (Telecom ParisTech and Supelec mostly). So let's no over-generalize. There's a culture of risk aversion in France, and it pushes a lot of people toward big corps as they're seen as safer. But they can also be a trap: be comfortable costing for most of your career, safely ticked inside the borg. But if you go through a big restructuring past your 50s you'll be toast, and have a real hard time recovering (if you can). Personally I prefer environment that force you to keep in shape and fit. I fear I would let me cost in a big company... For the copy/paste business school driven start-ups, I'm sure there are a lot of them (not in my field, but it's hard core tech and capital intensive, not a good match for "pipo" people) but the issue there maybe the relative lack of start-ups founded by techies?
- Blackstone4 7y ago
  What is BTS/DUT? What's the advantage of working for a small company outside of Paris?
  - pnako 7y ago
    The advantage is quality of life. Paris is expensive, noisy, not always clean or safe. BTS/DUT are short higher education degrees that focus on practical and professional skills, with selective admission (but not as selective as actual engineering schools). Basically in France you have: Grandes Ecoles ("great schools"), elite engineering schools that operate outside of the university system; you also have selective 2 or 3-year degrees inside high schools and universities (BTS, DUT, etc.) and then you have the universities. Where post-graduate degrees can sometimes be decent but undergraduate tends to be crap, and its pretty much a zoo or a jungle outside of STEM (fortunately, French universities tend to separate STEM campus from other disciplines filled with political activists).

yaantc 7y ago

I also worked for a US start-up, now in a French one. There's no business school guy in sight, upper management has engineering background. Maybe because the area is very technical? It could be different in the e-business field. In any case, the culture of a start-up is defined in great part by the founders. If you want more techies driven start-ups, you need more techies to found them and not join business school founded ones. For poorly paid engineers, it's true that French engineers salaries are far from the Silicon Valley standard --- which is true for a great part of the US too. Here too grumbling won't help much. To get salaries to increase we need more local demand for techies, and not from inflexible big corporations that will prefer to stall rather than change their salary tables. Well for the VCs, you're the tech expert not them. And if they invest in duds, not your problem right? The issue would be if a good tech idea couldn't find funding, and in the current context I don't think it's the main issue anywhere ;) As for the cultural problem: yes! Having been in SV and in France, I agree that France issue is primarily cultural. Too many people looking for safety first before opportunity. Lots of grumbling but much less moving. And not even getting safety in the end, as big corps are not very nice for old engineer and not the best environment to learn IMHO. There is a lack of luck there: close to the end of the first Internet bubble a lot of engineers, after a delay, had left heir big corps to joint start-ups. Just in time for the big Internet crash... A bad experience that made some very cautious during the next wave. Hopefully this memory will fade. Having a sustainable start-up ecosystem lasting over time, with motivating successes, will help. This requires funding over time.

Toine 7y ago

Agreed.

tasubotadas 7y ago

I have heard to social security laws are strict in France, and thus, after hiring an employee, you are basically stuck with them and can't fire. Could you elaborate on that? How true is the statement above?

yaantc 7y ago
Not true, although it's more complicated than in the US. You can't fire someone at will like in the US, you need to justify the decision. Which takes some time and paperwork. Also, it used to be risky as the fired employee could sue and ask for damage, with no legal cap. The later has changed. So you can fire people, I've seen it done a few times, if you have a competent HR it's perfectly doable. You will need to document why and have some justification, and be ready to present your case if challenged. Also, it's possible to let someone go my mutual agreement, with the employee keeping their unemployment benefit (there are limits to prevent abuse). It also eases things when both sides agree there's a mismatch, which often happen. So it's definitely not as fluid as in the US, but not stuck as some people would let you know. You tend to be more cautious about the hiring for sure.
- ecaradec 7y ago
  Also after hiring you have a trial period that can last up to 8 months during which you can fire at will (with a 1 month notice ).
arnaudsm 7y ago
Your statement is mostly true, but you can fire someone for economic reasons. Still, most startups rely on armies of unpaid interns as a workaround.
pnako 7y ago
It is mostly true. There is more flexibility for smaller companies, but generally you need to justify firing someone and courts tend to protect employees more. The issue in France is that you basically have tons of small companies that can have exemptions on things like that, taxes, etc. and a few very large companies that can deal with that, but almost nothing in between. Running a 500-employee company in France is basically hell, you get crap from everywhere.

pnako 7y ago

In France, if you are an engineer (Grande Ecole), you go work for companies like EDF, Thales or Safran. If you're BTS/DUT (c'est ca la puissance intellectuelle... bac + 2, les enfants), go work for a small company, preferably outside of Paris. But never work for a bunch of assholes from HEC who are copy/pasting some American ride-sharing or social media startup.

yaantc 7y ago
I work in a French start-up with a lot of grandes écoles engineers, and a good deal tier-1 at that (Telecom ParisTech and Supelec mostly). So let's no over-generalize. There's a culture of risk aversion in France, and it pushes a lot of people toward big corps as they're seen as safer. But they can also be a trap: be comfortable costing for most of your career, safely ticked inside the borg. But if you go through a big restructuring past your 50s you'll be toast, and have a real hard time recovering (if you can). Personally I prefer environment that force you to keep in shape and fit. I fear I would let me cost in a big company... For the copy/paste business school driven start-ups, I'm sure there are a lot of them (not in my field, but it's hard core tech and capital intensive, not a good match for "pipo" people) but the issue there maybe the relative lack of start-ups founded by techies?
Blackstone4 7y ago
What is BTS/DUT? What's the advantage of working for a small company outside of Paris?
- pnako 7y ago
  The advantage is quality of life. Paris is expensive, noisy, not always clean or safe. BTS/DUT are short higher education degrees that focus on practical and professional skills, with selective admission (but not as selective as actual engineering schools). Basically in France you have: Grandes Ecoles ("great schools"), elite engineering schools that operate outside of the university system; you also have selective 2 or 3-year degrees inside high schools and universities (BTS, DUT, etc.) and then you have the universities. Where post-graduate degrees can sometimes be decent but undergraduate tends to be crap, and its pretty much a zoo or a jungle outside of STEM (fortunately, French universities tend to separate STEM campus from other disciplines filled with political activists).