7 ms·

Most British companies I’ve seen operating appear to be an absolute mess from the inside. It’s funny that the British have the Northern European credibility in

by sprafa 7y ago

Most British companies I’ve seen operating appear to be an absolute mess from the inside. It’s funny that the British have the Northern European credibility in business but I don’t think they’re anywhere close as efficient or organised as the Germans or the Dutch. This is just personal experience but I’ve come to realise it seems to be the norm that British management is overall terrible.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
danjac 7y ago
This seems more like experience with certain kinds of companies - I've worked with companies around the world and there are certain anti-patterns I've experienced everywhere which really have little to do with the nationality of the management. For example, idiot CEOs, nepotism and micromanagement are, unfortunately, international phenomena.
- sprafa 7y ago
  That’s too bad. Being Portuguese for some reason I thought some countries would be better than others. The British tendency to be indirect and weird about being straightforward (people like that are called “rude” if they work in a majority southern English company) doesn’t help.
edf13 7y ago
Incorrect (Or have you sources?).... the issue is old legacy based companies. No matter where they are based. Legacy as in business systems, business thought process, legacy IT, etc. TC is a very old company
- lexicondrivel 7y ago
  Bank of England, arguably the ultimate in legacy business at the heart of all business types, are investigating the benefits of the most recent tech developments, namely cryptocurrency. Is it a legacy business issue or simply and ultimately a multitude of factors including bad management with ego's getting in the way which doesnt make a nice easy to read story or account of events? I'm not suggesting the original poster is incorrect with their account of events, lack of the right investment is something many people can identify in their own line of work, its just timescales to a point of failure can be variable. Likewise bleeding edge technology is not always beneficial for all, but holding back or testing the water and constant monitoring is required to avoid expensive mistakes. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/ndss16currencies.pdf http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/ndss16curren... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/bank-england-plots-bitcoin-style-digital-currency/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/bank-england-plo...
- mcv 7y ago
  There are also old companies who manage to keep up and innovate, and care about competence. Not as much as tiny startups, but enough to survive and do well. One problem with the British upperclass, is that they tend to be educated at private schools like Eton, where they primarily learn confidence. So tons of British politicians and managers know how to appear to know what they're doing, without actually knowing what they're doing. As long as things are going well, this works fine, especially since the people they do business with come from the same schools. But when the shit hits the fan, it turns into a fumbling circus. Like it did with Tories and Brexit.
  - celticninja 7y ago
    I dont even know where to start with this comment.
    - ubercow13 7y ago
      Could you try? As a (maybe naive, not upperclass) British citizen it seems pretty reasonable.
      - celticninja 7y ago
        I just think it could be applied to UK politicians who are predominantly privately educated and incredibly out of touch, but it is a stretch to think that most company managers are privately educated. Particularly because in the car of Thomas Cook the CEO is a German educated Swiss man. Prior to that is was run by a woman, who was not Eton educated. So basically the comment is a generalisation that cannot even be applied to this specific instance. The only thing it can be applied to fairly is the British political class, who in general would adhere to it.
    - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
      You can start by agreeing with it. It's not just true, it's the fundamental reason the UK is in the mess it's currently in.
      - 7y ago
- vesinisa 7y ago
  Company being old certainly does not mean it needs to be full of legacy systems and business processes. It only means that the company's management is not competent at evolving the company's processes and systems, which means it will eventually fail regardless of being a fresh startup or centuries old going concern. Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, BASF and Carl-Zeiss are all examples of over hundred year-old German companies that continue to innovate at the cutting edge of their industries and are massively profitable.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Not online they wont
  - usrusr 7y ago
    Minor nitpick: Volkswagen isn't over a hundred years old at all. It might not be entirely inaccurate to say that they have survived a thousand years, but those were the shortest thousand years in history.
    - vesinisa 7y ago
      Hah! Thanks, edited. It might be also said that their innovation most recently has focused on some less-than legal technologies. But innovation it is, nonetheless.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Those companies innovate and do well but they're not online businesses. They sell specialized niche high tech physical goods not digital services.
    - vesinisa 7y ago
      What about IBM? Founded in 1911, $13B profit in 2018. Most successful company in several online business sectors. What about Nokia? Founded originally in 1865 as a paper mill, re-invented itself multiple times in countless different industries, before becoming the leading mobile phone manufacturer in 1990s and 2000s. They did eventually indeed succumb to their failure to evolve, but a more competent management post 2006 would have likely saved the company.
Krasnol 7y ago
From my personal experience: there are huge German companies that are terribly organized. Inefficient or just stupid processes are being kept up out of tradition often headed by some senior who knows it the best and whos decisions are not being questions "because he's/we've been doing it this way for ever now". Generalizations don't help here. There is idiocy in companies and my feeling is that the bigger they are, the worse it gets.
roddux 7y ago
>it seems to be the norm that British management is overall terrible What an incredibly spurious, over-generalised anecdote.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  > What an incredibly spurious, over-generalised anecdote. Could be. I'd like to hear what evidence, beyond this one news story, informs the OP's generalization.
- exergy 7y ago
  He did take pains to specify it was just his experience. And even the fragment you quoted tries to be diplomatic by saying "it _seems_ to be"
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  The history of Ireland makes me think it's not as anecdotal as some would like. ;) Edit: I really hope that the people down-voting this just don't like the joke. If they think British rule of Ireland was good for Ireland or was in any way high quality that is far more concerning.
  - falsedan 7y ago
    > don't like the joke this was an attempt at humour? work on those bits some more at the comedy club

by sprafa 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

danjac 7y ago

This seems more like experience with certain kinds of companies - I've worked with companies around the world and there are certain anti-patterns I've experienced everywhere which really have little to do with the nationality of the management. For example, idiot CEOs, nepotism and micromanagement are, unfortunately, international phenomena.

sprafa 7y ago
That’s too bad. Being Portuguese for some reason I thought some countries would be better than others. The British tendency to be indirect and weird about being straightforward (people like that are called “rude” if they work in a majority southern English company) doesn’t help.

edf13 7y ago

Incorrect (Or have you sources?).... the issue is old legacy based companies. No matter where they are based. Legacy as in business systems, business thought process, legacy IT, etc. TC is a very old company

lexicondrivel 7y ago
Bank of England, arguably the ultimate in legacy business at the heart of all business types, are investigating the benefits of the most recent tech developments, namely cryptocurrency. Is it a legacy business issue or simply and ultimately a multitude of factors including bad management with ego's getting in the way which doesnt make a nice easy to read story or account of events? I'm not suggesting the original poster is incorrect with their account of events, lack of the right investment is something many people can identify in their own line of work, its just timescales to a point of failure can be variable. Likewise bleeding edge technology is not always beneficial for all, but holding back or testing the water and constant monitoring is required to avoid expensive mistakes. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/digital-currencies http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/ndss16currencies.pdf http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/ndss16curren... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/bank-england-plots-bitcoin-style-digital-currency/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/30/bank-england-plo...
mcv 7y ago
There are also old companies who manage to keep up and innovate, and care about competence. Not as much as tiny startups, but enough to survive and do well. One problem with the British upperclass, is that they tend to be educated at private schools like Eton, where they primarily learn confidence. So tons of British politicians and managers know how to appear to know what they're doing, without actually knowing what they're doing. As long as things are going well, this works fine, especially since the people they do business with come from the same schools. But when the shit hits the fan, it turns into a fumbling circus. Like it did with Tories and Brexit.
- celticninja 7y ago
  I dont even know where to start with this comment.
  - ubercow13 7y ago
    Could you try? As a (maybe naive, not upperclass) British citizen it seems pretty reasonable.
    - celticninja 7y ago
      I just think it could be applied to UK politicians who are predominantly privately educated and incredibly out of touch, but it is a stretch to think that most company managers are privately educated. Particularly because in the car of Thomas Cook the CEO is a German educated Swiss man. Prior to that is was run by a woman, who was not Eton educated. So basically the comment is a generalisation that cannot even be applied to this specific instance. The only thing it can be applied to fairly is the British political class, who in general would adhere to it.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    You can start by agreeing with it. It's not just true, it's the fundamental reason the UK is in the mess it's currently in.
    - 7y ago
vesinisa 7y ago
Company being old certainly does not mean it needs to be full of legacy systems and business processes. It only means that the company's management is not competent at evolving the company's processes and systems, which means it will eventually fail regardless of being a fresh startup or centuries old going concern. Bosch, Siemens, Bayer, BASF and Carl-Zeiss are all examples of over hundred year-old German companies that continue to innovate at the cutting edge of their industries and are massively profitable.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Not online they wont
- usrusr 7y ago
  Minor nitpick: Volkswagen isn't over a hundred years old at all. It might not be entirely inaccurate to say that they have survived a thousand years, but those were the shortest thousand years in history.
  - vesinisa 7y ago
    Hah! Thanks, edited. It might be also said that their innovation most recently has focused on some less-than legal technologies. But innovation it is, nonetheless.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Those companies innovate and do well but they're not online businesses. They sell specialized niche high tech physical goods not digital services.
  - vesinisa 7y ago
    What about IBM? Founded in 1911, $13B profit in 2018. Most successful company in several online business sectors. What about Nokia? Founded originally in 1865 as a paper mill, re-invented itself multiple times in countless different industries, before becoming the leading mobile phone manufacturer in 1990s and 2000s. They did eventually indeed succumb to their failure to evolve, but a more competent management post 2006 would have likely saved the company.

Krasnol 7y ago

From my personal experience: there are huge German companies that are terribly organized. Inefficient or just stupid processes are being kept up out of tradition often headed by some senior who knows it the best and whos decisions are not being questions "because he's/we've been doing it this way for ever now". Generalizations don't help here. There is idiocy in companies and my feeling is that the bigger they are, the worse it gets.

roddux 7y ago

>it seems to be the norm that British management is overall terrible What an incredibly spurious, over-generalised anecdote.

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
> What an incredibly spurious, over-generalised anecdote. Could be. I'd like to hear what evidence, beyond this one news story, informs the OP's generalization.
exergy 7y ago
He did take pains to specify it was just his experience. And even the fragment you quoted tries to be diplomatic by saying "it _seems_ to be"
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
The history of Ireland makes me think it's not as anecdotal as some would like. ;) Edit: I really hope that the people down-voting this just don't like the joke. If they think British rule of Ireland was good for Ireland or was in any way high quality that is far more concerning.
- falsedan 7y ago
  > don't like the joke this was an attempt at humour? work on those bits some more at the comedy club