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I wonder how many such Superfund sites we already have in mainland China (I mean from a factual standpoint, not from a government reporting standpoint). The Chi

I wonder how many such Superfund sites we already have in mainland China (I mean from a factual standpoint, not from a government reporting standpoint). The Chinese government is so out of control over the situation that, nominally, environmental pollution can be punished with death.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
It doesn’t make sense. Anything can be punished by death in China, and laws are only selectively enforced anyways, so death penalty with the excuse of pollution would probably only occur for deeper political reasons. China doesn’t really have superfund sites, in that they don’t have a specific category for expensive cleanup projects.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  I meant: how many sites are already de facto so polluted that they require deep cleanup. May be decades before we find out.
  - droopyEyelids 7y ago
    To be more realistic, you'll never find out. I'd challenge anyone who thinks we know all of them in the USA. It doesn't even take the corruption that a big employer in a small town automatically creates to have a 'hidden' superfund site. It only takes the lack of dedicated professionals testing everything all the time. Tracking sources and types of pollution is _not only_ difficult, highly technical work that requires a lot of infrastructure- but it also _requires its own R&D to keep up with new industrial chemicals_. This means it's fiercely expensive, manpower-limited, and that it takes a long, long time. What country is going to dedicate that amount of resources to find problems that'll cost even more money to clean up (or possibly can't be cleaned up at all)? Maybe Norway. Maybe.
    - throwaway2048 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancer_clusters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancer_clusters This always gives me pause, plenty don't have any known cause.
  - freeflight 7y ago
    > May be decades before we find out. You mean just like in the US?
    - mc32 7y ago
      Except now we know the consequences and have the experience and moreover have alternatives (even in simple management, mitigation terms) which might not existed five decades ago.
    - H8crilA 7y ago
      Yup. I mean London was covered in smog, just like Beijing is now. Not a big leap to expect a replay to some degree.
onion2k 7y ago
I'm sure the residents of Santa Clara and the workers in various campuses will rest more easily knowing that actually, there are much more polluted places globally. Its not a competition. The article is saying SV is badly polluted. Pointing out that China might be worse just means there's another problem; that's redundant information in the context of talking about SV.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  That's not the point? I'm just saying there's probably a whole lot of those in China. This is a problem to the health of many people.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > Its not a competition. No one said it was, and nothing said detracts from SV. I think it's an interesting question I wouldn't have otherwise thought about. Fifty years from now will China be talking about the same environmental issues we're talking about now? Will it be better or worse?
at-fates-hands 7y ago
China is also building hundreds of more coal plants in other countries and have plans to build more in their country. I find it deeply ironic how everybody talks about what the US has to do to stop climate change; while China just goes about its business making the situation exponentially worse without anybody really caring.
- moate 7y ago
  Can't speak for "everyone" but here's my 2 cents on what you're describing. As an American, my first thought it when it comes to most issues tends to be "what can we, America, do to make things better." This leads me to vote a certain way, consume a certain way, and live a certain way. I understand that out countries are doing their own things and having their own problems, but there's fewer mechanisms in place for the average person outside that nation to affect change (and depending on the structure of the government, there might not even be that much for people IN the nation to do). I care that China has bad aspects of how their government works. But the low hanging fruit for me is to try and pressure the people in my neighborhood (either literally or metaphorically) towards better decisions. "Change start at home" and all that.
  - hguant 7y ago
    >But the low hanging fruit for me is to try and pressure the people in my neighborhood (either literally or metaphorically) towards better decisions. The problem is that the low hanging fruit in America has been picked 30+ years ago. The things Americans can do to meaningfully impact climate change involve deep systemic changes - eating less meat, use of plastics, use of cars, general consumerism, etc. The impact of changing those would be big, but so is the level of effort involved.
    - moate 7y ago
      I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by "low hanging fruit". It's easier for me to affect my Town, State, and US political action than it is to influence Chinese policy. I can vote for green policy candidates who can institute actual change in the US. I have no ability to do that in the US.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

It doesn’t make sense. Anything can be punished by death in China, and laws are only selectively enforced anyways, so death penalty with the excuse of pollution would probably only occur for deeper political reasons. China doesn’t really have superfund sites, in that they don’t have a specific category for expensive cleanup projects.

H8crilA 7y ago
I meant: how many sites are already de facto so polluted that they require deep cleanup. May be decades before we find out.
- droopyEyelids 7y ago
  To be more realistic, you'll never find out. I'd challenge anyone who thinks we know all of them in the USA. It doesn't even take the corruption that a big employer in a small town automatically creates to have a 'hidden' superfund site. It only takes the lack of dedicated professionals testing everything all the time. Tracking sources and types of pollution is _not only_ difficult, highly technical work that requires a lot of infrastructure- but it also _requires its own R&D to keep up with new industrial chemicals_. This means it's fiercely expensive, manpower-limited, and that it takes a long, long time. What country is going to dedicate that amount of resources to find problems that'll cost even more money to clean up (or possibly can't be cleaned up at all)? Maybe Norway. Maybe.
  - throwaway2048 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancer_clusters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cancer_clusters This always gives me pause, plenty don't have any known cause.
- freeflight 7y ago
  > May be decades before we find out. You mean just like in the US?
  - mc32 7y ago
    Except now we know the consequences and have the experience and moreover have alternatives (even in simple management, mitigation terms) which might not existed five decades ago.
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Yup. I mean London was covered in smog, just like Beijing is now. Not a big leap to expect a replay to some degree.

onion2k 7y ago

I'm sure the residents of Santa Clara and the workers in various campuses will rest more easily knowing that actually, there are much more polluted places globally. Its not a competition. The article is saying SV is badly polluted. Pointing out that China might be worse just means there's another problem; that's redundant information in the context of talking about SV.

H8crilA 7y ago
That's not the point? I'm just saying there's probably a whole lot of those in China. This is a problem to the health of many people.
mieseratte 7y ago
> Its not a competition. No one said it was, and nothing said detracts from SV. I think it's an interesting question I wouldn't have otherwise thought about. Fifty years from now will China be talking about the same environmental issues we're talking about now? Will it be better or worse?

at-fates-hands 7y ago

China is also building hundreds of more coal plants in other countries and have plans to build more in their country. I find it deeply ironic how everybody talks about what the US has to do to stop climate change; while China just goes about its business making the situation exponentially worse without anybody really caring.

moate 7y ago
Can't speak for "everyone" but here's my 2 cents on what you're describing. As an American, my first thought it when it comes to most issues tends to be "what can we, America, do to make things better." This leads me to vote a certain way, consume a certain way, and live a certain way. I understand that out countries are doing their own things and having their own problems, but there's fewer mechanisms in place for the average person outside that nation to affect change (and depending on the structure of the government, there might not even be that much for people IN the nation to do). I care that China has bad aspects of how their government works. But the low hanging fruit for me is to try and pressure the people in my neighborhood (either literally or metaphorically) towards better decisions. "Change start at home" and all that.
- hguant 7y ago
  >But the low hanging fruit for me is to try and pressure the people in my neighborhood (either literally or metaphorically) towards better decisions. The problem is that the low hanging fruit in America has been picked 30+ years ago. The things Americans can do to meaningfully impact climate change involve deep systemic changes - eating less meat, use of plastics, use of cars, general consumerism, etc. The impact of changing those would be big, but so is the level of effort involved.
  - moate 7y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by "low hanging fruit". It's easier for me to affect my Town, State, and US political action than it is to influence Chinese policy. I can vote for green policy candidates who can institute actual change in the US. I have no ability to do that in the US.