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The Awkward but Essential Art of Office Chitchat

• oh-4-fucks-sake 7y ago
  I think there's some salient points here, but I don't think fully takes into account the classic schism of maker vs. manager schedule. The makers might be fine all plugging along with minimal office interaction--especially if they're working remote.
  • grumpydba 7y ago
    In some big corps, in order to be a maker you have to know people in different departments to speed up things and take some shortcuts. You can also slowly have your technical solutions adopted. It takes coffee breaks and some jokes to reach that. And I think it really boosts your productivity.
• pts_ 7y ago
  For whoever it doesn't work, it wastes a whole of their time, and their life. Not to mention it completely wastes the chance to use their talents to take the society forward.
• hrktb 7y ago
  > Jamie Terran, a licensed career coach in New York City, said that small talk between colleagues and supervisors builds rapport, which in turn builds trust. IMOA trust is built by delivering, being consistent and helping out. You can chitchat all day, it won’t help if there’s nothing behind. Some people may be terse on the interaction side but do their job, come to help when they see you need it, and generally be aware of what other people are working on without chitchatting. In this day and age if chichat is the main communication bus of your group/company, either it consciously chose to do so, and you have been hired in this perspective -> no issue whatsoever. Either it’s doing something fundamentally wrong and you should go somewhere else. Also what is a “licensed career coach” ? Why don’t they ask 5 or 10 people with actual successful careers and give clearer context advice. It feels so bullshitty to have someone with that title for everyday job interactions.
  • atian 7y ago
    That chit chat can be about “delivering, being consistent, and helping out.”
  • lnsru 7y ago
    Where I work, chitchat during lunch break is main communication bus. Since I am preparing my food at home, I don’t go to the canteen and I am the black sheep in the office. I am the last one to get the news. It’s seriously wrong, because there are no written agreements at all.
    • Baeocystin 7y ago
      ...so go to the canteen anyway and talk while you eat together? I can think of plenty of times where a shared lunch with some co-workers was a mix of people bringing food and buying from the cafe. Having agreements in writing is important for reference. Being present for their creation (and therefore having a say as it takes shape) is worth it.
      • lnsru 7y ago
        You are right, I should do it. It’s very important to participate in office politics and decision making process. I think, other companies have separate meetings for this. But I am not going to stay here for 5 years.
        • Baeocystin 7y ago
          I can 100% guarantee you that if you find yourself at a company that has a dining room available for lunch, business planning will happen there, one way or another. It is human nature to discuss things while breaking bread.
      • hrktb 7y ago
        You are perfectly right, in that this is a real thing. Lunches are not just food intake, and being there or not will have an effect on your work life. I personally feel it’s something that should be more explicited. It goes well along shared bathroom breaks, cigarette breaks, after hours drinking, golf on week-ends. We all draw the line somewhere different on wether we are willing to do it or not, but it should at least be made clearer this is part of work and not some fun ride. We make it clear with our family or partners, it should be clear on the company side as well. Note: eating with friends that happen to work at the same place is yet another matter, that’s not what I am pointing at
• Jaruzel 7y ago
  I am rubbish at small talk. For one I'm not really that interested in other people, and secondly I find it really boring. As such, all jobs I've had as a permanent employee, I've found myself completely stymied when it came to career progression, despite always having very good performance reviews. It very clear to me, that the people who float to the top of organisations, don't do it via their work performance, but by slapping each other on the back whilst sharing a pint or two down the pub.
  • rumanator 7y ago
    Work performance in mid to top management positions is tied mainly to leadership and social traits. It means close to nothing if your hard skills are the best if the job requires mostly soft skills.
    • Jaruzel 7y ago
      Yes, my point exactly. You said it better though ;)
  • cstpdk 7y ago
    `For one I'm not really that interested in other people, and secondly I find it really boring` I am totally with you on both points. The important thing to realize is that it is uninteresting and boring, but that is not the point. It is a skill like many others, if you want the benefits it brings, you have to learn it through practice and however else you normally learn skills
    • blobs 7y ago
      Hmm, this sounds a bit naive. I'm struggling with this for my entire life, and only a certain amount of alcohol helps me to do chit chat. But after the chit chat I always regret some things I've said, the whole thing is just rubbish. I simply don't like it to be forced to talk shit. I'm quite certain it's not a learned skill, it is pretty default for the most stupid people around us.
      • 7y ago
• not_a_moth 7y ago
  I think the essential office chitchat issue is "being yourself" vs. "seeming like a high quality professional". I've found out the hard way that relaxing and aiming for a real conversation carries a high % chance of saying something unbecoming of a team leader. Better pay attention to appearances when you're at work. I don't understand coworkers who say silly things at the lunch table without a second thought, or those who base their social lives around co-workers... doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my experience anyways I think it's reality.
  • nicoburns 7y ago
    > doing so seems to risk your upward mobility. It's a sad POV but from my experience anyways I think it's reality. Maybe some people aren't that concerned about upwards mobility, and care more about having a work envitonment where they can relax and be themselves?
  • Porthos9K 7y ago
    I'm not a team leader and have no interest in becoming one. Moreover, I spent most of my adult life hiding behind a professional persona and all it did was make me miserable because people only noticed me when they wanted something from me. I'm done with that nonsense. I won't embarrass the company, insult clients, or create a hostile work environment but otherwise I'm not going to pretend that I left my personality in the car. If you can't accept me then you don't deserve me. Fit that into your culture if you can.
    • treypitt 7y ago
      do you think professionalism was the main cause of people only seeing you instrumentally? if so, I'd be interested to hear more about your definition of professionalism
      • Porthos9K 7y ago
        I honestly have no idea if my notion of professionalism was the main cause of others only seeing me instrumentally, but my idea of professionalism is to come in, do the job well, not talk about anything unrelated to the job, attend unavoidable company functions, and then go home. Anything not directly related to the job remained outside the office.
• n7_goat 7y ago
  I used to mostly keep to myself but think I balanced being social enough to be a well adjusted office worker. This completely changed as I rose into management positions, and now I feel compelled to chit chat with everyone, which is really exhausting for me. I think the article overstates how important chit chat is, but the overall point is probably correct: don’t be a psycho and never talk to anyone.
• graphicsRat 7y ago
  Sadly this is true in my current and previous jobs. I worked and have worked with people who know very little or do very little yet but have mastered the art of hobnobbing and have fared a lot better than yours truly who'd rather put his head down and get the work done.
• bigbluedots 7y ago
  Is there a way to see this site while remaining in private mode? There are 13 trackers blocked ffs
  • SaturateDK 7y ago
    I use https://www.eff.org/privacybadger https://www.eff.org/privacybadger for all websites, seems to do the trick for me.
• gexla 7y ago
  Smalltalk is improv. It's yes... and. You take turns with the hot potato. You take your turn and then pass it. It's creating a story. Take whatever what was passed to you, add something quirky and then pass it back. It's fun to add something off the wall, a bit ridiculous. Doing this takes courage. You WILL make mistakes. At times, you may cringe at yourself. Putting yourself out there, taking small risks is the spice of life. When you fail, embrace it and move on. Don't look back. If you smile and keep a bright attitude, then that becomes infectious. If showing up is 90%, then the right attitude is showing up. The quickest way to screw this up is to be toxic. Advanced mode is keeping that positive attitude (don't forget the smile) even when you're feeling attacked. If you can't bear it, then keep a number of exit strategies in your bag of tricks and pull one of them. You have to get going. Someone is expecting you. You need to take a call, etc. If you choose to stay, then you have to stay deft and keep the air light. Don't let someone pin you down into a corner where you have to defend yourself. Continue keeping things light and a bit ridiculous and the air will change. You might even gain some respect.
  • abledon 7y ago
    one reason I don't like working remote is that when I'm in the office, part of the time there... I'm being paid to do improv, to freakin' use my grade 8 drama skills!
    • Loq 7y ago
      one reason I do like working remote is that I don't have to deal with others' grade 8 drama skills!
      • lonelappde 7y ago
        But then you have to deal with their 8th grade writing skills.
        • saddestcatever 7y ago
          golf clap >>> Made me laugh, so thank you. But so true
• RickJWagner 7y ago
  My wife is amazing. She can walk into a Wal-Mart, and within minutes some stranger will be telling her their life story. I, on the other hand, suffer from Programmer's Disease. I can walk into a crowded room, approach someone and try to strike up a conversation and have the discussion killed in 3 minutes. I try to improve. I really do. I think it's a gift we're born with.
  • borumpilot 7y ago
    For me and my wife that works basically the same, but I have found method to the madness. 1. She loves it when I come to save her when the tone of the spontaneous discussion is not to her liking and nothing kills said discussions faster then me participating. 2. When I strike it, my conversations tends to be very subject focused and will leave me and the other person smarter and more informed. So what I do now is either I stand beside her and try to enjoy the (for me) meaningless chatter (I really like the high pitched voices of socially engaged people), or I will try to find that one other weirdo in the room who holds a ton of knowledge in an area that I'm completely blank about and suck as much as possible information out of them. That is where my 35 years of continence improvement have led me. YMMV.
    • Porthos9K 7y ago
      I know you probably meant "continuous" instead of "continence", but I can't help but chuckle at the usage.
      • godfreyantonell 7y ago
        One can never have too much of either form of improvement. Also, I am the same way at parties. As an introvert my battery gets charged fairly quickly. My wife is the extrovert.
      • borumpilot 7y ago
        :) You are right, thanks for pointing that out. After looking up continence it fits like a glove :)
• feintruled 7y ago
  It can be quite a minefield. I worked with a guy whose chit-chat policy was disconcerting - stating the bleedin' obvious. "You are in early today!" "You are in late today!" "You are on time today!" "Wearing the red shirt again, I see!" "Got your hair cut!" While this 'say what you see' served as a functional ice-breaker, as an introvert I found it strangely confrontational, almost like an interrogation. I felt like I was having to justify myself, as there was no obvious opening for a meaningful reply otherwise (simply saying 'yes' hardly cuts it). Of course, that was all on me, he had no idea I was reacting in such a way.
  • crosvenir 7y ago
    I try to deflect these types of statement with humor when possible. Comments about time are meet with the Gandalf quote, "A wizard is never late, [...] nor is he early; he arrives precisely when he means to." "Got a hair cut?" "Nope, I got all of them cut."
    • feintruled 7y ago
      Yes, but then you are somewhat assuming the mantle of the resident stand-up comedian, might be hard to live up to! (Funny enough, I did brainstorm solutions as thought experiments. The one I saw working was to mercilessly point out what he was doing, every time he did it. "A-ha! Captain Obvious speaks!" "Got any obvious observations for me today?". But that would have been staggeringly cruel, after all the poor guy was only trying to be friendly!)
      • madacoo 7y ago
        That last approach would go down very well in some British offices.
      • rootusrootus 7y ago
        Given the level of sarcasm that goes on in my own household, I don't know if I'd be able to resist saying "Aye, Captain!" if someone habitually greeted me with obvious observations all the time. I'm used to saying that pretty regularly to my seven- and nine-year-old kids.
• matwood 7y ago
  My goto topics for office chitchat are TV shows, video games, and sports in that order. Most people have at least some show they watch and will talk about, and others typically have a video game of some sort they play. Sports used to be first, but I've run into many people who have zero interest or knowledge in any sport personal or otherwise. Topics I love to talk about but avoid, diet and exercise. Topics I avoid completely, politics.
  • freshfey 7y ago
    I'd add religion to the topics to avoid, too :)
  • nikk1 7y ago
    Restaurants, bars, and events around town are a good topic as well. Travel is a good one too since many coworkers are either planning a vacation or were on one recently.
• pgt 7y ago
  Relationships develop through the escalating exchange of mutual vulnerability. A few people commented that I seemed to make friends very easily, so I started paying attention to my interactions with strangers. I noticed that I enjoyed sharing vulnerable anecdotes with people before inquiring about their own, e.g. dates gone wrong from the night before. Sure, sometimes I put my foot in my mouth, but people seem to like that and trust me more for it. When I started researching how friendships are forged, this was on the button.
  • mruts 7y ago
    One of the best way to make coworkers friends is to talk about drugs you’ve done. Now that you have mutual comprimate it will be very difficult for one of you to fuck the other without it backfiring. Another good way is to hang out with the smokers, even if you don’t smoke. I’ve noticed that people smoking together is a nexus of power, especially if a higher up or the CEO does it.
    • pgt 7y ago
      Beware of doing this, as it can easily backfire when abused by HR. Stick to exchanging stories that could not be deemed to have an impact on your job, or explain bad performance.
      • Loq 7y ago
        This is true, but ... ... you can analyse this in a different way: think long term! The more successful you are in your job, the more you will bump into the same people again and again later, sometimes a decade later. Somebody else abused your trust by talking to HR, hence you could decide on the simple policy of never trusting them again, and cut them out of your high-trust network. Some fail your trust-related tests, some pass. Use this information wisely. (Note that an alternative policy is not being too history-sensitive, and let bygones be bygones.)
      • oillio 7y ago
        That defeats the point of the exercise. The fact that the information could be damaging is what makes it powerful.
• distant_hat 7y ago
  The vast majority of office chitchat is like a carrier wave in radio. It doesn't transmit much information other than I am a normal human who you can turn to when it is needed. There is a fair amount of politics etc that is conveyed more through body language and dominance dynamics rather than the actual words exchanged.
  • twoquestions 7y ago
    Except they don't care about you. Someone could burst through the door and skin you alive, but your coworkers won't be in the least bit perturbed unless: 1) Your mutilation was against company policy 2) Some bits of you got on their shirt. Personally, I'd much rather deal with people knives drawn rather than work hard pretending to care if each other lives or dies.
    • war1025 7y ago
      Sounds like a wild place to work at. Also sounds like a great way to end up isolated and alone. Even at work, you sometimes need people in your corner.
      • twoquestions 7y ago
        Except the incentives are aligned to be a Hobbesian war of all against all. There is no incentive to collaborate or team up at all. Ever wonder why shows like Survivor and Battle Royale games are so popular? That's how office life is these days. Nobody is ever "in your corner" as you put it. Everyone is always and forever trying to gut everyone else in a neverending zero sum game. Unless you work in a new/high growth field or something, then collaboration can have benefits, but in most static corporate environments, the only gain you have is from someone else's detriment.
        • asdfman123 7y ago
          Maybe there's an argument that if you go full Machiavelli you can rise higher in the corporate world, but what's the point? Sure, I could become the Senior VP of Whatever, but that won't make me happy, and sacrificing my personal values will make me unhappy. Furthermore, I learned the value of collaboration, even if it helps potential opponents, through the card game Puerto Rico. Trading with others helps them, but it equally helps you. Say you're playing with 4 other people. Trading gives you +1 benefit for both parties. Refusing to trade causes 0.5 harm. The rational strategy is to trade as much as possible (except maybe with the frontrunner), because if you just go around harming everyone else, you'll equally harm yourself. They'll get hurt, but they can just turn around and benefit from trades with other players. It is possible to get quite far by being a solid person with integrity. And if that appeals to you, you should never sacrifice that. Finally, it's a big world. My purpose in any job is to learn and grow as much as possible, and then take those skills elsewhere. Meanwhile, those who rise to the top of the heap at some company due to bad politics -- are they actually going anywhere? Or are they stuck in the bed of their own making?
• exabrial 7y ago
  > Every day around the world, an estimated three billion people go to work and 2.9 billion of them avoid making small talk with their co-workers once they get there. Wait, how are 2.9b people avoiding chitchat? I almost more interested in this.
  • hansbo 7y ago
    I read the first part of the sentence as an estimation, and the second part as a joke.
    • exabrial 7y ago
      :) the entire article's subtle humor is refreshing. I had a literal laugh-out-loud about the sharing streaming services login joke; ironic b/c such services are usually consumed en solo, which runs contrary to the thesis of the whole article in general
• roland35 7y ago
  I should show this to the head of engineering at my last company! I got a verbal warning for talking too much to coworkers when I first started. People were just introducing themselves! That is the disadvantage of having a desk right next to the big boss's office. After that warning I tried hard to avoid any conversations.
• twoquestions 7y ago
  Small talk is an extremely high-risk low reward activity depending on your status with the company, especially if your manager has told you your status is utterly fixed. How in the hell are you supposed to build a rapport with people who would as soon skin you alive as look at you, and only tolerate you for what you can do that no one else can?
  • asdfman123 7y ago
    That's a sign of a toxic workplace. Far better to just move on and find a place that respects human beings.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• mwcampbell 7y ago
  I hope that all-remote work environments will rise in popularity and level the playing field. Not only for introverts, but also for people with disabilities that make it difficult to participate in casual conversation. I dream of an environment where a deaf person, a person with a severe speech impediment, an autistic person, people with other disabilities that don't prevent one from making small talk (e.g. blindness), and yes, some people with no severe disability can all work together, without necessarily even being aware of each other's conditions, because they're all working remotely and using text to communicate and get their work done. Disclaimer: I work in accessibility, and am legally blind myself, so maybe I fixate too much on disability-related issues sometimes. I can make small talk at the office though.
• journalctl 7y ago
  I don’t get why this is so hard for some Americans. “Good morning. How was your weekend? Did you do anything fun?” “Nah, just did a big Costco run and then cleaned a bit. You?” “I biked around a bit, then kinda relaxed on Sunday. Well, I’m gonna go make some coffee. Want anything?”
  • AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    I don't know about other Americans, but for me it's because you can't give unexpected answers to such questions even if they are true. Instead you're just playing out a culturally mandated script.
    • journalctl 7y ago
      Every day is filled with culturally-mandated scripts, though. You don’t belch in front of a date (unless you’re already super close). You say “please” and “thank you” to people. You make eye contact and nod occasionally when someone speaks to you. It’s impossible not to have norms like this (and if it weren’t these norms, it would be others). They might not make a lot of sense all the time, but that’s not their purpose.
      • AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        But those scripts are at least brief. Chit chat is typically about things that are supposed to be "shared" interests by everyone like whatever TV shows are currently considered culturally relevant, or the local sportsball results. When you legitimately do not care about any of those things it gets awkward in a hurry. Hell, I'm only barely aware of the current weather conditions, let alone the forecast, which is pretty much as default as topics get for this. I guess my problem is that it is a ritual meant to simulate a conversation, yet unlike a conversation no meaningful information is meant to be exchanged.
• scyclow 7y ago
  I got hit by a car while on my bike earlier in the summer. If nothing else, that solved 100% of my co-worker small talk for the next three months.
  • thomk 7y ago
    Hahahahahah! Sorry bro but holy shit that is a great way to look at it. I hope you are ok, but that was funny.
• josh_fyi 7y ago
  I quiz people on how their part of the company is going. "So, are we making our quarter"? "What does the world think about our company?" "Did we really get the CD system working like it's supposed to?" People love talking about their areas, and I get some intel on the company I work for.
• 5trokerac3 7y ago
  As someone who worked a lot of low-end and blue collar jobs before getting into software, small talk with coworkers is a whole lot easier in the former environment. There is so much petty politics and ego in the modern office that all it takes is saying one thing that someone doesn't like to cause potentially years of unnecessary drama. One gossipy sociopath who's trusted by your manager, that doesn't like something you said during small talk, or who didn't like the look in your eyes when they mentioned a strong political view, can limit your ability to get promoted. People just talk anything and everything in blue collar jobs and nobody cares. I think that's because nobody has their ego wrapped up in how well they mop a floor or flip a burger.
• projectileboy 7y ago
  Highly recommend reading The Gervais Principle by Venkatesh Rao for a more in-depth discussion of office talk, and much more.
• cryptozeus 7y ago
  Am I the only one who thinks this article is total nonsense. Really? You “need” to do small talk in order to get promotion and be liked around the office. How about we leave this to the individual’s personality. If you are in the right culture fit then you don”need” to do anything. You will love to chichat with your colleagues and if not that is okay to. Some people just love to work on their craft and small talk is just a distraction.
  • Pmop 7y ago
    No, you aren't. I also see it as distraction, which is even worse to programmers who have to keep laser focused on their work.
• air7 7y ago
  Thinking about the reasons why people engage in smalltalk (in other areas of life too such as family and friends, dating, service providers, etc) helps (me) cope with its banality and even enjoy it; The irrationality is quite rational. A conversation, especially a face-to-face one, contains something beyond content: Something like a meeting of souls. The (hopefully positive) feeling of the presence of another human being. The breadth and importance of this non-verbal communication is obvious. Smalltalk then, is basically a request to engage only in this non-verbal connection for a fleeting moment. The content is almost completely irrelevant. It's just the excuse to be in a bubble together for a while. Seen this way helps (me) in two ways: 0. You don't need to be "good" at it. It really doesn't matter what you say. Say anything and the ball keeps rolling for a few moments longer. 1. You can find compassion towards the person who initiates it instead of contempt: They are actually asking to warm by your fire for a little bit. They are not testing/dueling you. Or in the more sentimental words of L. Armstrong: "I see friends shaking hands, saying How Do You Do. They're really saying I Love You"
  • ljm 7y ago
    I think so. I love deep and meaningful connection and getting lost in that conversation but if you leave out all of the small talk that naturally happens in between, it’s easy to find yourself in a very lonely place. For a time I used to dislike it because it seemed pointless. Not everybody is comfortable with silence and, given a chance, you might find that some small talk kicks off the deeper conversation you so desire. After that I realised it wasn’t so much the deep meaning that I wanted so much, it was being able to connect, listen and empathise. And to enjoy some of that from someone else. In the end, the small talk is quite valuable even if it seems utterly banal on the surface. Sometimes I just laugh about it, use it as an icebreaker.
  • ljm 7y ago
    I think so. I love deep and meaningful connection and getting lost in that conversation but if you leave out all of the small talk that naturally happens in between, it’s easy to find yourself in a very lonely place. For a time I used to dislike it because it seemed pointless. Not everybody is comfortable with silence and, given a chance, you might find that some small talk kicks off the deeper conversation you so desire. After that I realised it wasn’t so much the deep meaning that I wanted so much, it was being able to connect, listen and empathise. And to enjoy some of that from someone else. In the end, the small talk is quite valuable even if it seems utterly banal on the surface. Sometimes I just laugh about it, use it as an icebreaker. Life isn’t so serious all the time, after all.
• fortran77 7y ago
  Careful! The Smalltalk people are going to jump in here and start talking about how message passing between lightweight processes is the best way to write efficient programs.
• commandlinefan 7y ago
  > “I’m good. I just started a book/podcast/TV show Hm - my wife (who’s an expert on this sort of thing) says that’s actually rude and you should always answer back, “good and you” so that _the other person_ can start taking about their TV show/podcast whatever.
• acheron 7y ago
  Counterpoint: Don't Talk to Anyone, Ever https://freebeacon.com/blog/dont-talk-anyone-ever/ https://freebeacon.com/blog/dont-talk-anyone-ever/ Don't talk to strangers at work. I don't care if you're coworkers: Unless you have to do a task with this person, they aren't interested in being anywhere near you, nor should you be in them. Don't talk to anyone. Ever. Talking is awful. People are worse. It's hard to imagine a more horrifying combination than talking to people.
  • Porthos9K 7y ago
    I was hoping for an honest exploration of full-on misanthropy, and all I got was a crappy satire blog. I'm disappointed.