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Almost one in five men admits to having no close friends, a survey has found
- jamesb93 7y agoSounds like a result of increasingly drab and formalised work environments.
- GhettoMaestro 7y agoAlso hypergamy.
- cameronbrown 7y agoI fail to see how that's relevant to making friends.
- xenihn 7y agoI've made a few friends through OLD and hookups. It's simply not an option for most men.
- cameronbrown 7y agoOkay, fair points. I can imagine it's a tough situation to be in.
- viburnum 7y agoThere’s a pecking order for men. Nobody likes the guy at the bottom of the hierarchy.
- orange-juice 7y agoI was bullied in college so I'm going to downvote you because you made me feel sad.
- whatshisface 7y agoWork friends aren't real friends because what happens if you get fired?
- Angostura 7y agoIn my ... case carry on being friends? Assuming you socialised outside of work.
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoI spent 6 years in a job, lunched with the same few colleagues most days, thought they were good friends, knew their partners, met up out of work, that kind of thing. Left to start own business ... None of them offered any support, nor visited, nor anything. Completely floored me, I thought I had good friends at work. One colleague, a very loose acquaintance, visited a couple of times, asked after us; I need to find that person and thank them ... [people I knew through a club, who happened to work in the same place continued to be friends however.] Anyway, I'm now working with some of those people again, and talking with them it feels like they're friends... but in retrospect I think for them I was just like background noise to their jobs? So, at least for me "carry on being friends" was the expectation but I was miles off.
- repiret 7y agoSometimes work friends become real friends.
- Frost1x 7y agoThe term "friend" is pretty worthless anymore, atleast compared to the definition I adhere to. What most people call "friends" I'd call aquantiences but I prefer fewer high quality relationships than a large quantity of casual passings. I don't and never have valued such casual fleeting relationships of any kind outside those in the workplace (those are necessary to function in a modern workplace). I'd hardly call those folks friends: most are merely professional aquanteinces or colleagues, nothing more. Good friends are and have always been difficult to come by. Many prefer loneliness with casual meaningless relationships than the work it takes to foster strong friendships. I'll never understand it but I was taught the value of meaningful human relationships exceed most other frivolities we often occupy ourselves with and it's been one of the most important aspects I followed through life as far as happiness is concerned.
- oauea 7y agoArticle is paywalled
- CraneWorm 7y agohttps://outline.com/HfKXpm https://outline.com/HfKXpm
- apearson 7y agoThat doesn't show the full article
- fouc 7y agohttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7488709/One-five-men-no-friends-loneliness-epidemic-leaves-thousands-living-isolation.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7488709/One-five-me...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- paganel 7y agoAs a man is pretty damn hard keeping friends after the age of 30, especially if you happen to go trough a divorce when suddenly more than half (if not more) of your friends get to “choose” the other side. Yeah, you get to ask your friends back from high-school or college out for a beer but chances are they’re also in a middle of a divorce or they’re too busy with family requirements (can’t blame them) or too stressed out because of work reasons. And then there are all those friends who have moved town or even country. All in all things are not so easy.
- chrisseaton 7y agoDon't you have any hobbies that give you a social life outside your work or family?
- dleslie 7y agoA great many people in the USA work well beyond 40h a week, and have a few hours of daily commute time on top of that. For them the weekends are for recovery; there is no physical or emotional energy for social engagement or self care.
- Gibbon1 7y agoMy opinion, most of the united states communal infrastructure is a wasteland.
- PeterStuer 7y agoIt is not just the US. 10 hour workdays (officially 7.8, but if you would actually 'just' do that and skip the 8am or the 6pm meetings you will not be keeping up with the Joneses and pay the piper) and spend 2-3 hours in commuting each day doesn't leave much for hobbies.
- dleslie 7y agoIt's true; China has the 996 problem, for instance.
- wiremaus 7y agoI read here that loneliness is a significant problem for people in general within the modern world, and somewhat moreso for men. Headline seems a bit clickbaity, as the issue is clearly not exclusive, and the percentage difference relatively small.
- agumonkey 7y agoI also connect social bonding with an "ancestral" notion of work. Even stupid tasks with low wage can impact your health tremendously (positively) compared to isolation.
- rconti 7y agoAgreed that it's clickbaity. I already felt bad for the (smaller) proportion of women who would be turned off by this headline, and then when you read the actual article, it's 12% of women and "almost one in five which would be 20%) of men. So, men's rate is not even double womens'. Don't get me wrong, both numbers are serious, and I agree it's a lot harder for us men. It's just that, particularly in the case of such an isolating feeling, excluding people and minimizing them is truly damaging.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoFocussing on men risks feeding the whole “men are victims of feminism” narrative.
- whatshisface 7y agoI don't see how that's relevant to this article, it's talking about friends, not wives.
- Yoric 7y agoIn this context, I find this unlikely.
- jiminy_john 7y agoYou mean to say that in fact women are victims of feminism?
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- fouc 7y agoStrange, there was a nearly identical study back in 2014 polled by YouGov as well? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11026520/Lonely-Britain-five-million-people-who-have-no-real-friends.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11026520/Lonely-Brit...
- czr 7y ago> all 18% of men, 12% of women; 18/30 is... 60%? huh?
- czr 7y agoah, looks like admins fixed the title. this comment is in relation to the title the article uses: "All the lonely people ... are men", which is unsupported by the data in the self-same article.
- throwaway66920 7y agoThe article states 18% of men had no close friends, significantly higher than women at 12%. Honestly that’s doesn’t sound hugely different to me. For every two women with none, there’s three men with none. The gap is a bit smaller for best friends too.
- daenz 7y ago>The gap is a bit smaller for best friends too. It's not: 32% for men, 24% for women. Also, this attitude is why "men are the disposable gender" is a thing. Real problems that are correlated with men are dismissed and ignored as not significant.
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- throwaway66920 7y agoIt’s not that significant though. For every 4 men with no best friend there are 3 women in the same position. If being a man is so difficult, this is a small part of it relative to being a woman; and I would wager that women do better here simply because they put in more effort.
- daenz 7y agoAcknowledging a real problem facing men is not the same as claiming "being a man is so difficult," and you immediately jumping to that conclusion makes me question your motives.
- throwaway66920 7y agoI don’t know what ulterior motives I could have in pointing out that something is not a man problem but a people problem.
- theferalrobot 7y agoI just switched from a job where I could work from home anytime I wanted (which meant everyone on my team did so 100% of the time) to a job that requires everyone to be in the office 90% of the time because I want more face-to-face human interaction in my life. The convenience was great but, on the whole, it made me less happy.
- sscarduzio 7y agohow about joining the gym instead?
- almost_usual 7y agoI’ve been going to the gym at least 4 days a week for years. Unless you’re into a specific niche thing it’s hard to socialize. I’ve found it easier to talk to others after getting into powerlifting. Most people at the gym have headphones in and are grinding out a workout as quickly as they can because they’re busy. At least that’s how it feels in SF.
- sscarduzio 7y agoOh sorry I didn't mean that kind of gym. I joined a martial arts (muay Thai) gym and it was a great life changer. I don't want to fight, but I train hard with actual fighters and it's very bonding. Sharing "pain" and passion with others created common ground with people that I had very little in common in the beginning (i.e. non tech, different age)
- almost_usual 7y agoI’m in this exact situation. Looking for a new job now.
- dleslie 7y agoI've been working from home for nearly five years now; it's been fantastically convenient while I raise my daughters. While I have found that my adult social interactions are severely limited, I am no worse off than my old friends; one of whom remarked that after moving to Montreal he's seeing friends and family just as often as he did before. Where I find adult interaction is in more traditional venues: I made an effort to get to know my neighbours, and am acquainted with some staff and patrons at the local pub. The key was not to rely on scheduled events; too many adults will ghost or reject because they feel too busy or weary to attend. Impromptu social interaction works better; have a beer with your neigh bour.
- patientplatypus 7y agoSomehow we just all “decided” that two parent families, where we work jobs we hate (and that if we get fired we’re on our own), where the social space is dominated by corporate interests, where if we get sick we are forced into poverty - this is society. Of course everyone is alone and terrified.
- ryanmarsh 7y agoI find it interesting that men seem to be at the polar ends of the friendship spectrum. When lonely, they are the most lonely, and also when they have friendship claim higher levels of trust in those relationships than women would. Women who express feelings of loneliness tend to have more human connections than men expressing similar feelings. Women claiming to have good friendships still do not indicate high levels of trust like men reporting that they have good friendships. I wonder why though? It’s like men are either destined to be lone wolves or a tight knit squad.
- xenihn 7y ago>Women who express feelings of loneliness tend to have more human connections than men expressing similar feelings. I wonder why though? There's a difference between feeling lonely and actually being lonely.
- yourapostasy 7y ago> I wonder why though? Might be another aspect to gather more information for the ongoing research into the variability hypothesis [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sysbin 7y agoI think making friends is similar to wealth. Easier to make friends once you already have friends than if you have nobody. I think men specifically suffer from this dynamic because they're more closed in communication than women.
- swiley 7y agoIf you're an average single man the world hates you. The public considers you a liability that has to be written off in order to stay consistent and most people expect you to hurt them in some way.
- holdenc 7y agoYes, but move to a country with an economy drastically less developed than your own, and your fortunes may change.
- brosinante 7y agoAh yes, colonialism will save manhood.
- guerrilla 7y ago"The public" ... which you have statistics on? I'm sorry you feel bad but try not to speak for everyone.
- hogFeast 7y agoHe is talking about the UK. There is a huge bias against single males here. To give one example: the number and size of tax benefits aimed at families is massive. Spending on these is something like £33bn...that may or may not sound huge to you but the total NHS budget (i.e. healthcare costs for 70-80m people) is ~£115bn. Not everyone thinks this. But it is definitely far to say that is the general view (and it is why Daily Mail skews female, which basically doesn't happen with right-wing news outside the UK).
- Merrill 7y agoMen have acquaintances. Women have friends, with all the emotional baggage that entails.
- thrownaway954 7y agoBecome an alcoholic... Join AA.. Boom!!! More friends than you can imagine :) In all seriousness... I hear this all the time in the rooms... loneliness is a killer. What's crazy is I have a sponsee, who specifically wanted to get sober cause the loneliness was driving him insane. Any reason to get sober and stay is a good reason in my book.
- Gibbon1 7y agoReminds me I think of a Dilbert strip where Wally takes up smoking so he has an excuse to take breaks and hang out with people.
- teddyh 7y agoStory starts here: https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-11-19 https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-11-19
- crehn 7y agoThis also happens all the time in real life.
- jimktrains2 7y agoI used to do non-smoking "smoking" breaks with my smoker friends at work. Why should I be denied 10minutes of non-work every hour or two !
- pferde 7y agoAs soon as my place of employment starts handing out oxygen masks, I'll do the same. Wait, no, I'd need a full body suit, because I do not want to get my clothes reeking of that crap. :)
- solipsism 7y agoWhat is the point of posting articles that are behind paywalls? Why isn't it against HN rules? Is it a test of just how many people actually try to read the articles they're responding to? Have fun conversing about a headline...
- Myrmornis 7y agoThis is a good question.
- qes 7y agoI disagree with the apparent premise (article's paywalled) that having no friends means you are lonely. I have no friends that I'm not also in a romantic relationship with, and I wouldn't call myself lonely at all outside of a rare fleeting feeling here and there.
- abrax3141 7y agoThis very difficult to interpret, esp. as the article has over-simplified things for reporting purposes. How many of the respondents without friends wanted to be that way? Was family counted as friends? And what counts as a friend anyway?
- Abishek_Muthian 7y agoIs being lonely really that bad? I like being lonely, not that it makes me happy, as a matter of fact it may be opposite but I really didn't like when I was not lonely (or) say when I had to socialise, indulge in the small-talk just for the sake of it; I felt like having to constantly fake emotions and have insincere conversations. I've almost completely cut off any realtime communication and my current lifestyle seems like a luxury which I had been missing earlier. This has helped me to focus on things which I would like to do.
- zzzcpan 7y agoIt's not a real objective feeling, so no, it's not bad, it's subjective.
- hutzlibu 7y agoTry socialice wih people like yourself. Then you don't have to pretend emotions and only talk about things you actually care fore.
- Kkoala 7y agoIf it only was so easy :(
- Abishek_Muthian 7y agoMore so when you're physically challenged, having interests which are alien to the locality and with opinions which are not synonymous with the society.
- hutzlibu 7y agoHave you considered moving to a different place? But yes, when you are also physically challenged, that is even more hard.
- Abishek_Muthian 7y ago
- viburnum 7y agoCan’t find it right now, but I recall some research showing that friendship for men is basically with whatever other men you’re around the most. If you’re a man and want more friends, you probably need to get a new job. Or make a long-term commitment to showing up to the same place where other men are also committed to showing up (AA meetings, church, sports team, etc). Or just be friends with the husbands of your wife’s friends. The good news is you don’t need a sparkling wit or anything, you just have to show up.
- capableweb 7y ago> some research showing that friendship for women is basically with whatever other women you’re around the most. If you’re a woman and want more friends, you probably need to get a new job. Or make a long-term commitment to showing up to the same place where other women are also committed to showing up (AA meetings, church, sports team, etc). Or just be friends with the wifes of your husband’s friends. I replaced "men" with "women" and it still feels true. Think this is just in general how humans build friendships with each other. Maybe also add "making an effort to hang out with your already existing friends friends"
- fromthestart 7y agoOr perhaps men and women are innately different after hundreds of thousands of generations of sexually dimorphic evolution, and this affects the manner in which they socialize? It seems we've brainwashed an entire generation into believing that all differences in male and female are purely social constructs - which is total nonsense.
- capableweb 7y agoI'm not saying that there is no difference between men or women at all, you're jumping to conclusions here, way too quickly. From my point of view, this particular social behavior doesn't seem to differ too much though, but I would agree with you that there are other behaviors/attributes that are very different between men or women.
- 7y ago
- buboard 7y agostudy result https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dro933l3yl/YouGov%20-%20Loneliness%20Results.pdf https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/docume...
- lolinder 7y agoVery interesting numbers. Of those men who indicated that it was difficult to find friends, 26% responded that the reason was that they didn't feel that they needed friends. Only 14% of women responded the same. (Page 43) Others have commented that the gender gap in having no friends is much smaller then the headline implies, and this difference may account for a good chunk of it.
- jl6 7y agoI sometimes feel guilty having the few friends I do, because I feel I can never give them enough time, between work and family commitments. Work is the easy one - it’s easy to say “I’m done working today because I want to spend more time with my family”. It’s not so easy to say “I’m done with family time today because I want to spend more time with my friends”. I’m conditioned to feel selfish at such thoughts.
- cryptica 7y agoIt's not possible to form genuine friendships under capitalism. The system is just too competitive, especially if you're in a decent income bracket; the kinds of people who make it in that bracket (which you spend the most time with; e.g. at work) tend to act selfishly. They're only loyal to the extent that you have some kind of leverage or interdependence within your work environment. The instant you lose that leverage, they won't hesitate to throw you under the bus for their own benefit. I think this kind of ruthlessness is necessary though; in fact, it's the only ethical way to operate under a capitalist system. If you have any economic leverage in society or in your workplace and you choose to make friends based on someone's personality instead of based on their ability, you will probably end up giving that person access to opportunities at the expense of someone else who is more talented, more worthy and more capable of creating real value for customers. Not only is this kind of nepotism unfair, but if the environment keeps becoming more competitive, you will risk your company's survival. Under capitalism, if you want a friend, get a dog.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- buro9 7y agoI run 300 forums, and I had a startup for them. The lofty goal of the startup was to "cure loneliness" but I never told the users that. My path to doing this was to encourage interest based communication, in a way that would allow them to take it offline. How? Well to make it interest + geography, i.e. horology nerds in Cumbria, cyclists in London, petrol heads in Cornwall, audiophiles in Suffolk. By binding together an interest, and a geography, it naturally encourages trade, showing off, having a beer... and coming together. But not in a way that ever was to "cure loneliness" (which few people admit to feeling, and frankly most people find lonely people unattractive people from the perspective of wishing to hang out with someone like that). By providing a space to share a passion, the forums brought people together. I had to make our own software to achieve this, i.e. a forum with events built-in by default, etc. But it worked. Except I couldn't get it funded beyond the crowd-funded angel round :shrug . But still, 250k monthly users, hundreds of marriages, tens of thousands of friendships, and still people meeting weekly for beer and chatting with others. And like all love, when the lust is gone what remains is something special... these forums are evolving now, from the original interests, into just a group of friends for life. If I were lonely today, I would say... identify a hobby or interest you could get into, start looking for entry things to dive in, and then look for groups on MeetUp, or forums online, that will help you find other people.
- ben_jones 7y agoI feel like it would be appropriate to share some of these forums in this thread, I think the immediate need outweighs anyone calling it out as self-promotion.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- AndrewKemendo 7y agoIt's in his profile: https://www.lfgss.com/ https://www.lfgss.com/
- buro9 7y agoNot all of them are applicable, the platform has also been used for forums that connect old-age pensioners homes (it's easy to use), and support networks for victims of domestic sexual and violent abuse in South London. However the largest example is the London cyclist one https://www.lfgss.com https://www.lfgss.com . I started with cycling and the plan was to saturate one sport/recreational interest before branching out. So I run a lot of the cycle forums in the UK, from the Rapha one, through to Islington http://forum.islington.cc/ http://forum.islington.cc/ , Brixton https://forum.brixtoncycles.cc/ https://forum.brixtoncycles.cc/ tiny clubs like Grupetto https://csgrupetto.microco.sm/ https://csgrupetto.microco.sm/ One of the newest is a sustainability forum for a group with a core around Cambridge but spread over the UK https://onething.is/ https://onething.is/ Some of the forums are private, and I'm fine with that as they can permission it the way they want and pull members from elsewhere as they see fit, i.e. the petrolheads in Cornwall. Each forum is like a startup itself, they all have to find their first 10 users, then to get to 100 users, and to be aware of the 1% rule of internet culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture) But I help nurture and guide, and show them how to do it. Without funding I've slowed everything down though. It's funded by donations from users across sites today, but expansion risks cost cliffs as I'm just below the threshold for a few services I would need to pay for (auth0 free tier) and don't have time to engineer my way out. With neither time or money spare, it's stagnated. But if someone wants a startup idea... this does work. Not wildly profitable, but it works. How did it make money? I'd barely scratched the surface, but conversation around interest contains a lot of intent to purchase, and there are classifieds and meetups. So it's affiliates, a challenge against eBay (people into an interest have emotional attachment to the items and would rather sell to others into the interest), and ticketing for events, etc. And because it's all a platform, one instance, the traditional highs costs associated with running a forum were avoided. Lower costs, and actual revenues :) I love what I do for work now, but I still believe this was an idea that is good for society.
- motohagiography 7y agoThese trends are set in contrast to times when fraternal organizations provided a kind of social fabric that isn't the norm now. For men who are recognizing that social isolation is a long term risk in their lives and want to do something about it, I heartily recommend looking into these organizations. They're a mixed bag, like anything, but a bunch of guys who can hold anything together for decades should make anyone's list of options to investigate.
- fromMars 7y agoI think Church and religion can also fill a similar role. As someone who isn't active in any religion, I notice that coworkers who are tend to have a lot of social activities and presumably friends as a result of their participation.
- Aloha 7y agoAs a gay male, I often have an additional wrinkle - in the Masonic orders, Eagles, Elks, or Moose Lodge, I feel I would be the odd man out in these situation.
- neverartful 7y agoI was in the Masons for a number of years and I was surprised to read your post. I'm quite sure that some of the Masons were gay. It didn't matter any. The only time that I could see someone feeling like the odd man out is where there are events for couples and you didn't feel comfortable bringing a guest. This would be more true for the Shriners than say the Blue Lodge (plain Masonic lodge). I recently became an Odd Fellow and I still feel the same with respect to whether a member is gay or not. The big difference with the Odd Fellows is that both men and women can be (and are) members. The Masonic orders are only for men. In any case, I wouldn't write them off completely due to your concern.
- motohagiography 7y agoTo clarify, I also know a few gay men in lodges, sexuality isn't an issue there. Being recognized as a good guy by a bunch of other guys is no small feat. Someone who is trustworthy, kind, fair minded, honest, with only moderate conceits, good natured, charitable, and magnanimous is rare to begin with. I think if someone has these qualities, there is very, very little that will stand in their way.
- forgitude 7y agoMiddle aged white American male here. Bye!!
- jcoffland 7y agoOne of the big problems I find is that when I call or text my male friends they often fail to respond. My female friends always respond. I've had multiple discussions with my male friends about this and my conclusion is that they are mostly overwhelmed with the responsibilities and demands of being a modern man. Friendship falls low on the priority list. I, like many men, want more camaraderie but it takes work that's difficult to commit to.
- therealdrag0 7y agoFor some of my friends, I _know_ they are not overwhelmed with responsibility. But sometimes they just don't feel like it or are busy with other friends who I don't know. That's frustrating. I want to shake them. But sometimes I do it too and realize "Oh this is what my friends probably like when they don't respond." For me I think the biggest barrier is housing proximity. All my friends live in different suburbs, which means on the weekend that's a 30m drive each way, and it's worse afterwork on the weekday. Sucks.
- saddestcatever 7y agoI've had the same experience with my group of friends. I know it's a small sample size, but I wonder of that's a common contrast for most folks my age. When I message/call/text/email my mail friends, I know there's a 1h-24h time window before I get a response. And that's if the message prompts a response. Otherwise, they'll address it next time in person, or just let it fly by. On the other hand, my female friends respond much quicker. At the same time, I see my current girlfriend ALWAYS on her phone. There's always someone she's in contact with - because it's a priority for her to respond. My male friends when hanging out, are almost never texting/chatting on their phone unless something immediate demands attention. It's an interesting tradeoff
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- belorn 7y ago> The figures prompted charities to urge men to reach out by dedicating more time to hobbies and socialising in an attempt to stop hundreds of thousands living in isolation. Rather than urge men, would it not make more sense to urge charities and hobby organizations to do out reach programs towards getting more men to join? It is what IT sector and the education system has been doing lately in order to increase minority numbers.
- spodek 7y agoDecades ago three people independently said to me, "I've known you a long time but I don't feel I know the real you." I saw I was the common element so decided to change. I learned social and emotional skills, which took years of social and emotional work. It didn't cost time or money, but since I was used to intellectual learning, I often felt hopeless, confused, and other emotions I'd never felt from learning. Most things I tried didn't work, but some did and I kept at it. After a few years I found myself saying how nearly all my relationships after that work were better than nearly any relationship before -- with friends, family, girlfriends, coworkers. I've concluded that the problem wasn't my work situation or social structures, but that no one taught me social and emotional skills of self-awareness and relationships. In the past, we learned them through things like sports, arts, free play, and other performance-based activities -- the things schools increasingly cut in favor of things amenable to standardized tests. I don't mean art history or art appreciation, but creating and expressing yourself where others will judge your painting, recital, stage performance, etc and you learn to handle it. Nor do I mean sports where adults control everything, but challenging yourself to improve, recovering from loss and failure, etc. My publisher framed my book Leadership Step by Step https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Step-Become-Person-Others/dp/0814437931 https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Step-Become-Person-Others/... as a business book, since it will probably sell more that way, but it's the book version of the course I teach at NYU to develop these skills. My point is anyone can learn social and emotional skills. When you do, relationships improve and increase in number when you want. People who do the exercises consistently tell me they thought they couldn't learn these things, especially not in a classroom. I felt that way when I learned them. I wish I'd learned them as a child, but it's never too late to learn them.
- mrtweetyhack 7y agoSee women can beat men in some categories.
- sargram01 7y agoWhat happened to the movement that it’s ok to be bored? That was ok, but now it goes out the window when it’s called “loneliness?”
- lolinder 7y agoBored and lonely are two very different things. "It's okay to be bored" is about disconnecting from the constant feed of entertainment and information, not about isolating yourself from other human beings.
- sargram01 7y agoIt’s the same thing, you’re just replacing a human for the content. And the result is the same, this constant grasping, never a moment’s rest.
- qj4714 7y agoThis is a symptom of something. While it is not easy to identify a specific underlying cause, I think if you’re not socialized at a young age in how to make friends or you don’t come from a large, extended family, it is nearly impossible to make meaningful relationships with others. Hobbies and social clubs are fine, but they can be transactional and transitory. Even with your spouse and kids and their friends/family, these relationships can be transactional. You’ll have a hard time communicating beyond words, sharing at a higher level.
- paulpauper 7y agoi think we're in a "loneliness bubble" in terms of how discussion about loneliness there is on HN lately https://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+loneliness https://www.google.com/search?q=site:news.ycombinator.com+lo...
- reaperducer 7y agoI think part of the problem is that social media, and Facebook in particular, has cheapened the meaning of the word "friend." I see people on HN all the time saying that they have better friends far away via social media than they have in their own neighborhoods and offices. It's popular inside the tech bubble to believe that digital communication is as good or better than real communication, but it isn't. That's a lesson one of my family members is learning right now, and the rest of us by proxy. She was walking to work one day and got run over by a car. Living in a different state, 1,300 miles from her family, she didn't bother making new friends because she could still communicate digitally with the people already in her online relationship cloud. But where are they in her time of need? When she needs actual friends, not social media friends? None of her Facebook "friends" are going to go to her apartment and bring clean underwear and toiletries to her in the hospital. None of her Twitter followers are going to move her car so she doesn't accumulate tickets over the next six months when the street sweepers and snow plows come. None of her Instagram people are coming to see her, to comfort her, to see how she's doing and just talk to her during visiting hours. When she regained the use of one hand, she started looking at social media again, and realized it is all so hollow. Talk, platitudes, and shameless self-promotion does not make a real relationship. When she comes out of this, I hope she realizes the value of real human-to-human connections. But because she's as addicted to social media as the companies want her to be, I believe she will relapse into the void of fake friendships once again.
- lojack 7y agoI'm not sure I buy your explanation at all. Social media may make distant friends feel closer, but I don't think this explains the lack of close friends. I understand that this is a data point of 1, but this article and the HN comments all ring true to me, and I hardly ever use social media. Most of my not very close friends also don't use social media. A friend of mine tried creating a group on facebook to help coordinate social events for a group of dads and almost universally the wives ended up RSVPing for their respective husband. When we ended up getting together we ended up talking about work and our houses and all the different things we're doing. Men have a tendency to communicate differently (IMO society has trained us to do so) than women. When my wife gets together with her friends they talk about how they're feeling about things and their relationships. This leads to men having a tendency to have more superficial relationships.
- intrasight 7y agoHere's an easy solution guys - make friends with more women. A couple years ago my wife asked for a divorce (we are still married but separated). It was very much a wake up call that I was very dependent upon her emotionally and I had neglected my other friendships. I did two things. I invested myself in some old friends from high school and college, but as none of them are living in my city, I realized that I really needed to invest in new friends. Several friends that I did have were runners, and they suggested that I join one or two local running clubs which I did. I wasn't and am still not a "runner", but now I have so many friends I don't know what to do with myself. I am I'm as happy as I've ever been in terms of having friends with whom to socialize. There are presumably clubs like that in every city. Obviously would help to be a runner, but like I said, I am not. I run for social reasons not because I enjoy it. Another interesting thing with socializing in middle-age is that 4/5 of my friends now are women. I think that's because women make better friends. They are more outgoing. They are more emotionally aware. They're more willing to invest in friendships. I think guy friendships are harder because of social expectations of of what a male friendship is - especially if like me you don't enjoy drinking or spectator sports.
- orasis 7y agoSo much this! I am happily married but my wife understands that I tend to connect better with female friends than males. It took some time for me to reject the social taboo of a married male hanging out with platonic women friends but I’ve been so much happier for it.
- intrasight 7y agoI don't think there is a social taboo - I think it's more of a self-imposed taboo because we've been told forever that men and woman can't just be friends. I've found that if you are clear that you just want to be friends then there is no discomfort, and they will treat you nearly exactly the same as they treat there female friends. They will share their feelings, their concerns, their aspirations. That what needs to happen to be good friends. And you need to share also! Oh, and be prepared for lots of these friends sending signals that they would like to be more than friends. How you handle that is obviously up to you.
- knorker 7y agoOne in 5.55 men. One in 8.33 women. High for both.
- blackwhip 7y agoI try to get into friendship but most of them fall away easily. I know the feel and wish I could build better ones.
- humanrebar 7y agoI only see a couple mentions of religious organizations, but it's worth pointing out that churches and other religious organizations put an enormous amount of effort into making meaningful friendships convenient and healthy, including casual events, lectures, classes, study groups, and group volunteer activities. I'm not positive that the amount of attention given men in particular is comparable to children, women, couples, or families, but it's common enough to be normal to have men-specific activities, groups, and events. Point being, church participation rates are much lower for men (ironically so, when men are out in men-filled bars looking for female companionship). I believe men leave (or don't try) churches thinking there was/is nothing for them, and then struggle with isolation and lack of respect. Of course, churches themselves have a lot of work to do to actually incorporate these realities into their teaching and culture. It's more common for churches to treat men as extra flawed or lazy instead of unaware of these problems.
- nitrogen 7y agoIt's a bit disappointing that community and belief system have to be intertwined. If one changes (you change beliefs, or your local community doesn't suit you), the other suffers (you lose your friends, or you have to pretend to believe something you don't). I used to be devoutly religious through my mid twenties. In hindsight that was a mistake for me personally because the community surrounding that religion didn't suit me, and eventually discovered flaws in the belief system that led me to become an atheist. I missed many opportunities in life by trying to make that religion work for me for far too long. So it's true that if you find a belief and community that work for you in the same place that it can be great, but I wish there were more options like that independent of belief.
- colospoin 7y ago>I missed many opportunities in life by trying to make that religion work for me for far too long. Oh, this hits way, way too close to home.
- humanrebar 7y agoGood community takes work and consistency among other things. Often you put in hard work, end up personally worse off, but everyone else benefits. Often, the connection between action and benefit are very disconnected. Point being, at least in my experience, it's not possible to separate belief from community. Things like prioritizing forgiveness do not make both intellectual and emotional sense. At least not enough to keep families together, let alone groups less officially affiliated.
- nojvek 7y agoI guess i’m one of them. I hate talking on the phone. Face to face yeah. But with family commitments there isn’t much time to go out. So you just be contempt by not having any friends and being busy with work and kids. Trust me having kids is not all they make it. Insomnia leads to fatigue which leads to loneliness and depression. It hits eventually.
- black_puppydog 7y agoSorry, I know this will trigger some folks, but this is exactly why I never understood the backlash against "toxic masculinity" that I see from (male) friends whenever the term comes up. Who said it's supposed to be toxic only for others? Being a stereotypically "manly" man would prevent me in particular from expressing some of the things that make me feel the least lonely, from simple things like cooking and being proud of having made some simple art or handicraft, to hugging friends when I feel down, or being able to vent frustration, fear and other negative feelings in a non-violent way. And I'm not even marginalized by any means. Straight white European tech bro, really. In essence, if I felt bound to any common stereotype of "Man: as seen on TV" I'd be barred from having meaningful connections with those I call friends.
- draw_down 7y agoThat’s not what triggering means, come on
- fromthestart 7y ago>which I never understood the backlash against toxic masculinity" that I see from (male) friends whenever the term comes up. Who said it's supposed to be toxic only for others? Because toxic masculinity is an exaggerated catch-all boogey man used online to shame men for their innate nature, taking for granted that society functions better if we act more like females. Conversations around toxic masculinity typically implicitly deny thousands of years of sexually dimorphic specialization by blank slateists. What's more, it's men who get the blame for the socially reinforced aspect of this so called toxicity, with the conversation universally denying the role that female sexual selection plays in reinforcing these behaviors - women are innately drawn to masculinity, and to a large extent what is and is not culturally masculine is not limited social pressure. Men and women evolved with differently shaded psychologies. Why do you think male and female norms have so much overlap across almost all cultures? And have for thousands of years?
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- cryptozeus 7y agoSome of the comments here are taking about just “male friends”...point here is about “close friend” not juts friends. I think its difficult to make close friends in the digital world where you never see real side of the people
- wozer 7y agoI wonder if this includes married men. Maybe those just don't think of their spouse as a close friend although she actually is.
- kerrsclyde 7y agoI don't have a single friend who I could ask to meet for a drink/socially. When I was 20 I had numerous close friends, but no wife and family, which have now replaced my friends. The relationship I have with my family I feel is much higher quality than I had with my friends. Friends (like family) can be hard work, maintaining friendships takes time and effort and I'm not willing to put in that effort, and I'm cool with that. I think it is too simplistic to say having no close friends is good or bad, it depends on your outlook.
- cronix 7y agoI think this is a side affect of no longer having long term careers with a single company. It's harder to build solid relationships when you move every couple of years and change companies. You just don't get to know people as well.
- akash7 7y agoGotta say, this article is really good to get more subscriptions.
- twirlock 7y agoWe did it, liberals!
- _q1cj 7y agoEven at 25, I'm starting to find a lot of "adult" social "events" incredibly contrived and stuffy. Relationships after college and in business are different and I'm immensely okay with that. I still have great friends that I've met through common activities but we're usually incredibly focused on said activity and that's why we get together, not just gathering for the sake of gathering. Living in a big city quickly became something I didn't see value in after my social life made this kind of shift. I also stopped drinking and stopping seeing much value in "signaling" wealth / success to others. "going out" with people I work with is simply unprofessional and weird (not because I don't drink) and frankly I'm confused why my generation actively tries to facilitate these kinds of overlapping "friendships". I completely understand when friends of mine tell me they're just too tired or don't have the energy to hang out. I do find it offensive when their reason is "my girlfriend / wife said I have to do this" etc.
- cableshaft 7y agoI recently got married in my 30s, and I had a difficult time choosing who to be my groomsmen, because while I do have quite a few people I could call good friends, I no longer had anyone stick out that I could really call a "close" friend or a "best" friend. We get together and mostly do activities, like play games or watch movies or go out to eat, and we will help each other out if someone needs it, but I don't really feel too comfortable opening up to them emotionally (well, nothing super personal at least). I don't really feel lonely, and can talk about most things with my spouse, but I miss having alternate opinions on things. I especially miss when I had like 20 people on instant messenger that I could have private conversations with on any given evening like I did 20 years ago, because it seems like no one does that anymore, at least not my age. Or at least it seems harder for me to find those people, at least. Facebook Messenger has the problem where everyone is always online but you can't tell if they're online because they want to chat or online because they're checking their news feed.
- starpilot 7y agoYou are living this movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Love_You,_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Love_You,_Man
- aussiegreenie 7y agoIf only 20% of men had no close friends the problem would be much smaller. My personal guess would be closer to 1/2.
- shard 7y agoThis is likely exacerbated by the trends towards single family homes. A few generations ago, when you lived together with aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, parents, grand parents, great grand parents, there's always someone to interact with. But nowadays, if your spouse is at work and your children are at school or some activity, there's nobody around. The situation is even worse when you are single. I think the trend of loneliness will increase due to technology unless the stigma in current society of living with your family goes away, but I'm not holding out much hope for that.
- Markoff 7y agoyou have unlimited time when you are single, just join some activity and very to know people and it can work with someone, good luck finding time with family, especially with small children
- marmada 7y agoI see several people suggesting that men should get more hobbies in order to meet with other guys, the issue is, hobbies don't form deep friendships (much of the time). You just end up talking about the hobby and nothing else. At least that's how I feel. Talking about anything more than the hobby suddenly becomes unusual.
- zamfi 7y agoDeveloping a deep friendship outside of shared interests is a skill some people need to build, not everyone has it built in. Sometimes it involves a little awkwardness initially. Don’t let that hold you back.
- scarface74 7y agoI’m very uncomfortable talking about anything in my personal life besides shallow platitudes with almost anyone. The two guys I can talk about personal issues with I’ve known for 27 and 10 years respectively. For instance with these two, we talk about everything - our marriages, our careers and even what we make and what we have saved. I would never talk to most people about that type of stuff. Among other reasons there is a certain taboo about it and you have to worry about jealousy, but one is a software developer and we have worked together at three separate jobs and the other is a well compensated manager at one of the big tech companies. My wife and I both have to be careful about sharing even the smallest things about our lives like our vacations, our hobbies, etc because we are better off financially than most of our friends and family - not bragging as a software engineer and part of a dual income couple , statistically we would be. And the typical male loves talking about sports. I really don’t care about sports as far as having any type of team affiliation. I can watch sports for the athleticism.
- RickS 7y agoMy experience is that a hobby gives a pretense for communication – which is an opportunity for depth, but not a guarantee. "Oh yeah, X guitar is so sick" is a shallow conversation. vs "Yeah, I've always had a soft spot for the strat. My best friend's dad was a luthier, and I'd always be in his shop when things got rough at home" Now you've got an opportunity to talk about something a little more real. A somewhat dark example, but... I find that returns on depth are a function of vulnerability invested. Tastefully, of course. Don't puke your trauma on the first date. But it's fear of opening up, at least in my experience, that keeps male relationships in the HobbyZone.
- wkrause 7y agoFind one friend. I’ve moved around a lot since college, and have had to build a social network from scratch a few times with varying degrees of success. While the advice to join a social activity centered around a shared interest is solid, it’s not sufficient by itself for making friends. Bridging the gap between hanging out for a given activity to hanging out more generally to being actual friends with someone is hard. Make one friend that is just down to show up. With at least one friend that you can consistently count on to show up, you can start inviting other potential friends to things and build out your social circle. You have to be open to rejection and to a bit of awkwardness that comes with two semi strangers hanging out. But with one anchor friend it becomes so much easier to make more and it’s the one piece of advice I wish I’d come across sooner.
- bloody-crow 7y agoThis is the post I've finally decided to start an alt HN account for. I'm one of those men with no close friends. Or any friends, for what it's worth. I've had a few people in my life that I had very good friendships at a time, but all of them now live very far and we don't maintain any contact. I'm married and my wife covers all my emotional needs. While I realize how dysfunctional such state of affairs is, I just can't bring myself to approach new people. Every time I'm in even remotely social situation, all I wanna do is to go home and be alone most of the time. Even when I do find people with similar interests, I never pursue the connection and follow up. I do realize that total lack of social exposure makes me a dull, boring person and forming connections will become even more difficult as time goes by. I don't know how to get out of this.
- sneak 7y agoWhere do you live? What are your hobbies and interests?
- bloody-crow 7y agoSeattle suburbs. Coding, videogames, cars. I've recently fell out of all of my hobbies and even stopped playing online games where I had some community going on.
- sneak 7y agoI’m thinking of starting a cryptoparty in a few of the cities I regularly inhabit to teach and meet more people, after being inspired by Snowden’s book. Seems like a good way to improve my communities and also meet interesting people.
- abnercoimbre 7y agoThis is basically a promotion since I'm the organizer. I'm hosting a developer's conference called Handmade Seattle this November, where lots of cool and personal coding projects will be showcased. You could show up with no expectations of making connections, but, you never know.
- RocketSyntax 7y agoReally?! In USA it feels like all the guys are friends and all the women alienate each other.
- nmstoker 7y agoMaybe this isn't a universal viewpoint, but to me if the concern is to increase social connections amongst men, it seems odd to lump that in with hobbies like it's some bonus goal. I know there are some hobbies that force you into a social situation but most hobbies seem a consumer of time in a reasonably solitary way and thus would further reduce any opportunity to socialise in the scarce hours when one is not working, asleep or traveling to work.
- gigatexal 7y agoThat’s a sad finding. If anyone wants a friend to geek out with I’m game. Alex at Alexandar Narayan (all one word) dot com
- Markoff 7y agowell I moved to completely different city in different country two years ago, on top of that I work from home 100% of time, on top of that I have two small children. do you really think I have energy for close friend? I am happy to rest in evening and not work during weekend, so I can spend more time with children. there is basically no time for friends of hobbies some people recommend to make friends (if I had energy in first place) so you can count me as one of those 18% guys. it's just stupid not take into consideration other factors, it's very different for single and/or childless people and for married folks with children, I would like to see difference in statistics for these two groups my present socialization is just reddit, Twitter and some other mother in playground I like to hang out
- the_rosentotter 7y agoOne thing I haven't seen mentioned: 'Friends' in your teens and twenties are often really about having someone to hang around with while looking for a mate. So you won't look like a lone loser at the club, or in social situations, or so that you get to meet members of the opposite/preferred sex through the group. Once people get married and have kids, all of that falls away, and so do the 'friends'. You don't hook up with new people, because either they want partners to ride shotgun with them while hunting for a mate, or they are set up too. What's left are people you have a real connection with, usually people you were friends with since you were kids, and those few family members you can stand being around. For many, that is a small to non-existing group. What's left is your wife and kids, and honestly? The best company there is, IMHO. And I am not worried about what I will do when the kids leave and my wife divorces me, silly me.
- mettamage 7y agoI can attest that I had a couple of such friends. I didn’t realize it at the time but once you get a girlfriend, they just fall away (I didn’t analyze as to why but fall away they do). I do think fondly of some of them. I’m grateful for having met them and for all the fun.
- namarie 7y ago> One thing I haven't seen mentioned: 'Friends' in your teens and twenties are often really about having someone to hang around with while looking for a mate. So you won't look like a lone loser at the club, or in social situations, or so that you get to meet members of the opposite/preferred sex through the group. I have never thought of my friends that way. Nor have I ever met someone who gave me the impression they thought of their friends that way. Maybe not everyone thinks life revolves around "looking for a mate"?
- Arbalest 7y agoI think this is a symptom of a few things: dehomogenisation of interests and urban sprawl, exacerbated by income requirements and children. From my understanding: In the country, you integrate, or you're isolated. It's pretty much always sports, and it's the lowest common denominator. In the past 100 years, as people have moved to the city, and as knowledge has diversified, there's this implicit promise that the city will allow you to find others with your interests. In the earlier years, say at University, this holds true. Young people who don't have many other commitments and are supposed to be there anyway, are able to find their own "tribe". At this time, travel time isn't an issue. As people start having to go to work, and travel time is now utilised for breadwinning, there's not as much time and energy slack left over for maintaining in person relationships. Then having children exacerbates this. So, now you don't talk to your neighbours because people do not group their housing arrangements around their interests, but around market pressures. So with sprawl, now everyone has to commute to see their friends. People also have to commute to go about their daily business such as grocery shopping. This means that you can't just "swing by" someone else's house, because they might not be there and you've wasted your time. So we ring ahead. This information sharing to be time efficient became an anxiety of "am I bothering X", which now means those calls don't happen as often either. Now everything has to be scheduled, and anyone who can't fit it in is screwed. There's also one more keyword which I think isn't mentioned here enough. Career. I have felt guilty at times for doing my utmost to maintain my one free night a week to meet our friends meetup schedule. We shouldn't feel this. The pressure for careers and work cuts too often cuts out the final bit of capacity we have left to maintain even some relationships. So in summary, people who have common interests are spread out by market forces, increasing commute times, forcing scheduling of time together, and that possibility is then snuffed out by the pressures of needing and income or looking after children. Rehomogenisation of interests is unlikely to happen, and probably shouldn't. Children aren't going away. So that means the two points to address are: Urban sprawl and career pressures. There needs to be more government oversight that is not completely undermined by corporate interests (I'm sure most large corporations would be more than happy if your work mates were the only human contact you had). That government oversight needs to strengthen the regulations around building of decent apartment complexes, not cash cows, because we want people to live in them, not rush out to the edges of suburbia because they can only afford either a garbage apartment or to move out to the suburban edge. Career pressures are best addressed by increasing people's job mobility. People who are anxious about losing their job do not have mobility. If someones workplace is unreasonable about their time, they're going to frequently be unable to schedule things with friends.
- feistypharit 7y agoI feel the real reason really is just lack of time. It takes a serious amount of time to make and maintain a friendship. This comes to a point with a family because you have so little extra time that you're very careful to use it wisely. To spend the hours hanging out and getting to know 10 strangers well enough that 1 may become a close friend is just a hard trade-off to make. As another comment said, it makes one feel selfish. Especially, when that was time you could have spent with your wife and kids. It's hard. The other thing I think we humans really end up dealing with is being alone. As you age, you simply have fewer and fewer friends. They die. You have less to offer to younger folks and are less mobile to get out. If anything, I think perfecting the ability to make friends would be handy. But I think in doing so, those friends would likely not be "deep" relationships...which gets back again to time.
- buboard 7y agofriendship should be a part of life. you shouldn't need to set aside time for your friends, they could come over while u re cooking or stay casually over lunch. It used to be a lot more like that in the past. I think the past decades have switched to an almost ceremonial way of life where helicopter parenting consumes the entirety of family life and everything else has been abandoned
- feistypharit 7y agoAlthough I agree in theory, in reality, it's very difficult. Friends from college that I'm close to are all far away. I think it's a downside of a loosely connected global social circle, versus a tightly connected local circle. If you have achieved what you say, would love to hear more about how you got there, how to sustain it, trade-offs, etc.
- war1025 7y agoAn idea I've had in my head for the past week or two, mainly because I have several projects that I just keep "not getting around to".: I think there is a difference between free time and idle time. Free time is when you could be doing something that has been back-burnered, such as a project around the house, or getting together with friends. Idle time is when there is nothing going on, but you are sort "on call" as it were (particularly in my case in the context of having young kids around). These are the times when you do lazy things like watch TV or surf the internet. Most of productivity "hacking" is probably just making an effort to convert more "idle time" into "free time", which is easy in some ways, but non-trivial in others. I think the distinction between the two is very helpful in considering why people say they don't have any time, but still manage to find time to do all sort of unproductive things. If you are simply idle, it's partly because you fully expect that you could be called away to do something else at any moment. To have free time, you need to consciously block off that time from other obligations.
- acen06 7y agoHelp me
- buboard 7y agoWhat's holding them back though? Yeah people work a lot today, but they still do have free time. They spend all that time dating? Gaming? Family? Spending time with family is healthy , but, all the free time ? that s too much, and it was probably never like that in history (at least for men). Men spend 0 time in former male spaces too. And finding hobbies you dont like just as an excuse to meet people feels forced and fake. Modern city lifestyle is hostile to friendships.
- memmcgee 7y agoI wonder if this has a lot to do with the economic system we live under. Marx wrote a lot about the alienation of labor, and one form of alienation was alienation from fellow workers. I wonder if we surveyed company executives or small business owners whether you'd find a different breakdown.
- HeavyStorm 7y agoCount me in. I can explain what moved me away from every friend I've had. Mostly life, and maybe a bit of lazyness from my part... What I say is: hold on to yours. It's really hard to make friends after a certain age.
- flax 7y agoArticle is behind a paywall, so I wonder if it addresses what portion of these men find this to be a problem. I have never had close friends other than whoever was my significant other at the time. This is more than sufficient for me, and I don't think it's unhealthy at all. Some people just aren't social.