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>What if human greed could be harnessed as a kind of natural resource, and redirected to mitigate its own effects? It's called capitalism. People like to rail
by daenz 7y ago
>What if human greed could be harnessed as a kind of natural resource, and redirected to mitigate its own effects?
It's called capitalism. People like to rail against capitalism for rewarding greed, and capitalism does have faults, but they forget that it is the only system (so far) that acknowledges the presence of greed and actively harnesses it for the benefit and advancement of everyone. Some alternative systems are so foolishly idealist that they try to pretend that greed (and the hierarchical systems constructed from it) doesn't exist. And of course it's easy to build those make-believe systems if nobody is actively exploiting it.
- cryptoz 7y ago> presence of greed and actively harnesses it for the benefit and advancement of everyone. This is not what capitalism does. Much of capitalism today and in US history is that of a destructive force that hurts the entire population without consequence, enriching mostly the already wealthy. The improvements and conveniences of modern society are unevenly distributed and brought to the masses at great cost to our society. Unchecked global climate change due to infinite-growth-greed-capitalism has dramatically decreased the quality of expected life for much of the world's poor. Capitalism absolutely does not, in theory or practice, make its benefits available to everyone.
- BubRoss 7y agoHistorically what has worked better?
- coldtea 7y agoHistorically, from the pyramids, to the wonder that is Rome, slavery did some impressive feats too... Should we have continued with that?
- emersonrsantos 7y agoIn capitalism, agreement or disagreement with someone doesn’t lead you to death.
- coldtea 7y agoYes, this is externalized in capitalism to the developing countries which it plunders (and which well into the 60s, most major capitalist forces used to have directly as colonies)...
- Ygg2 7y agoColonialism predates capitalism and feudalism. It's not caused by it.
- coldtea 7y agoAncient colonialism had different forms (e.g. settlement). Modern colonialism (Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium, England, France, and to a lesser degree US, Italy, and Germany) was a practice of the emerged capitalist states that started and flourished after the historically agreed upon dawn of capitalism (circa late medieval Italian city states and later the rest of Europe), and fed it.
- emersonrsantos 7y agoColonialism is theft. If they bought land from the natives that would be moral. Native people have all rights to home it has built, the land it has tilled and the livestock it has raised. Nothing to do with capitalism.
- cristoperb 7y agoI'm not sure this is a meaningful question to most anti-capitalists who want to move beyond capitalism to a non-exploitative economic system rather than return to some real or imagined historic system.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dr_dshiv 7y agoHonest question: what is the non-capitalist alternative economic system? European socialism and Chinese communism are still very capitalist. I'm always generally confused by these debates.
- traverseda 7y agoPurportedly per-agricultural hunter-gathering, depending on your goals.
- BubRoss 7y agoNothing really prevents you from doing that.
- traverseda 7y agoLots of things prevent someone from doing that, and certainly there's a very good reason why everyone can't do that. I mean why do you think no one is doing that? It can't just be because it painful or unpleasant, lots of people have terrible hobbies. Try to actually think about what would be required, what resources they would have had available to them, instead of just putting hunter/gatherer in a magic box. There are a bunch of different reasons why you can't do it these days, poaching laws being one of the most obvious. Who's land are you going to hunt/gather on? I feel like you haven't actually thought about this.
- trevyn 7y agoA lot of the barriers are in one’s own mind.
- czbond 7y agoYou are inter-mixing capitalism with the individual actors and humans that participate in it. Even Socialism relies on "idealistic human behaviour" in its more optimal states. Capitalism with an egalitarian mindset can work wonders. But it requires humans to be egalitarian - which lets be honest - those with drive and real desire to win are rarely egalitarian.
- eej2ya1K 7y agoToday's capitalist system is lifting people out of poverty at a pace we couldn't have imagined 200 years ago. If you really believe that quality of life for the world's poor has decreased in recent years you are living in a bubble and I urge you to leave it.
- patientplatypus 7y agoUntil it all comes crashing down because we did it by covering the planet in plastic trash, cooking the atmosphere, and eating all the animals. But hey, at least the poor can buy cheap meat. /s
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago> Today's capitalist system is lifting people out of poverty at a pace we couldn't have imagined 200 years ago. It also creates poverty at a pace we couldn’t have imagined 200 years ago. This is some Steve Pinker bullshit right here.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoI worry that the term capitalism means different things to different sides of the debate and therefore the arguments are non-substantial. What does capitalism mean to you?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rayiner 7y agoThese New Yorker types run in circles where someone accidentally rediscovering capitalism is a real possibility.
- llamataboot 7y agoCapitalism also re-creates subjects that believe they are isolated from others, deserve what they get, and encourages greed. Human nature is not a one way street. Personally I have conscious hedonism down for the win, and returning to very little activity eventually having to be structured through overt transactions, but we'll see.
- ghusbands 7y agoGreed would probably be greatly reduced if people could feel safe without significant amounts of money. In a world where you're one accident/illness/firing away from not being able to afford food, accommodation or medicine or even just a good quality of life, people will want to hoard wealth.
- Animats 7y agoLike Denmark.
- Roritharr 7y agoMaslows Pyramid wants a word with you.
- tonyedgecombe 7y agoI don’t think so, look around any affluent neighbourhood and you will see plenty of well fed people who can’t stop accumulating. Knowing when to say enough is rare.
- GrayTextIsTruth 7y agoCapitalism is too efficient of a system. It doesn't do enough to keep growth in check. We are on a speeding train that is going faster and faster. Any new system that tries to keep capitalism in check will be villainized by those who benefit from the capitalistic system. > harnesses it for the benefit and advancement of everyone but resources are limited, and so this model was created in a vacuum. Resources will become constrained and many will die and suffer, and not just humans. Personally, I think capitalism is great, but maybe technology is causing to become too efficient, and its not a fault of capitalism itself? So i guess i ended up agreeing with you, capitalism is pretty good, but we need a system to limit efficiency and tools.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoWhen you refer to capitalism, what exactly do you mean? Markets? (Are regulated markets capitalism?) Bottom-up economic control? Wealth accumulation? Property rights?
- andrepd 7y agoCapitalism promotes (unrepentant, unrelenting) greed, then it points at the world and goes "look how greedy people are! it's a rule of nature!". It's all a ruse, a self fulfilling prophecy. The truth is, simply, people will do as the system rewards. In a society where brute force is glorified, people will be brutes and the world will be cruel. In a society where scholars and scientists and artists are valued and rewarded, there will be more scientific progress and cultural output. The humans themselves are the same as they have been for 100,000 years, its just the culture that changed between cavemen, renaissance Italy, Mongol hordes, and modern day growth capitalism. In a world where greed and individual selfishness is the one metric that is rewarded, guess how most people will behave. That in a system such as ours most people are still good and altruistic and empathetic speaks volumes to how wrong that thesis is.
- logicprog 7y agoThe question is, why do people do as the system rewards? Why do they strenuously seek out rewards to be gained in any system, to such an extent that they'll change their apparent nature to do it? That sounds like greed to me. The fact that capitalism sets up the reward structure so that if you're really greedy one of the best ways to succeed is make something people really want, or something that increases efficiency, it's a really useful coincidence. Also, you say humans have been the same for a 100,000 years, which seems to indicate that there is a human nature, and that society hasn't really changed them. Isn't that the opposite of your earlier point? It certainly supports the capitalist point, if you actually examine how people acted in history. Especially if you look at what happens to systems of government and economics that rely on people being altruistic and not greedy (the Church, communism, monarchy to an extent). Also, I'd like to point out that in any society, but especially in a humanist, free society where being altruistic is a choice and not something forced upon you, there is always a reward for being altruistic, whether it's internal conscience assuaging, or extrnal favor-gaining. Furthermore, it is completely possible to be greedy in the persuits of gaining money, and then altruistic later: the whole point of getting money is not to have it, but to use it they way you want to use it. That can include charity.
- daenz 7y ago>In a world where greed and individual selfishness is the one metric that is rewarded, guess how most people will behave. That in a system such as ours most people are still good and altruistic and empathetic speaks volumes to how wrong that thesis is. If the current system is based on rewarding greed, and systems like that make "most people" behave greedily, then why are "most people" behaving altruistically? Either our current system is not one that rewards greed, or you have a contradiction. This contradiction reveals a lot about how you view people and the system.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago> acknowledges the presence of greed and actively harnesses it for the benefit and advancement of everyone. Nit, but you meant “those with capital” rather than “everyone” here.
- daenz 7y agoI didn't, and the persistent decline of global poverty, despite populations increasing, agrees with me.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoOnly for a very shitty definition of poverty. This form of exploitation stands in the way of the quality of life growth that should follow industrialization and automation—the “decline” you see is artificially stunted and primarily concentrated in already rich nations.