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The real benefit of meditation from my perspective is proving to yourself that you're not the voices in your head. I mean, you can't be; since you're obviously

by codr7 7y ago

The real benefit of meditation from my perspective is proving to yourself that you're not the voices in your head. I mean, you can't be; since you're obviously capable of observing them from the outside while they go on with their business. What takes practice is staying aware and not feeding them energy by identifying. Once the spell is broken, the conserved energy and improved focus and control changes everything. The mind is indeed a wonderful servant but a terrible master.

qwerty456127 7y ago
The next step is to realize that despite you are not the voices in your head, the voices are in fact you and not something independent. Approximately like you are not your hand but your hand is you. Therefore you have power over them and can do whatever you want, at least within your head. It takes some training (especially to become able to exercise this in extreme circumstances, with your amygdalae stressed and with your levels of trytophan, dopa, gaba etc depleted) but you literally can feel whatever you choose to at any given moment.
- ilrwbwrkhv 7y ago
  can you share some more resources on this? sounds very interesting.
  - TrainedMonkey 7y ago
    That is basic premise of the "The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself". That is where I learned of the concept.
    - scotch_drinker 7y ago
      +1 for this book as a starting point for removing yourself from the tyranny of your emotions.
      - thepinkelefant 7y ago
        Will also suggest to look at the entire Jainism religion which is not really a religion but a way of living life. It has laid out a extremely detailed description of how the soul is totally separate entity and the different tejas body and karam bodies that make Us up A detailed description in this article on the concept of Mind: Philosophy of Mind: A Jain Perspective https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/369b/7abd19f494d8b6d0f36115fb837c81ba655e.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/369b/7abd19f494d8b6d0f36115...
  - coderintherye 7y ago
    "Zen mind, Beginner's mind" is a good resource as there is a good amount of discussion in there, especially the part on how we are both one and two, not either of these things, but both of these things at the same time.
  - idclip 7y ago
    Why not Consider a 10 day vipassana course? Vipassana practitioners believe in generating their own truths as the nature of the mind reveals itself through meditation.
    - denton-scratch 7y ago
      "Vipassana" is an annoyingly-ambiguous term. It refers to a particular style of meditation, as taught by a particular teacher and his acolytes - a form of no-self insight mediation, based on a systematic examination of all the things that might constitute a self. It also refers generally to "insight" meditation, where "insight" might depend on whether you are training in a mahayana or hinayana tradition (in hinayana, it's insight into no-self, in mahayana, it's insight into emptiness). It might refer to silent but discursive reflection, based on instructions; or it might be a concept-free state of "resting the mind", arising spontaneously from various kinds of shamatha/samatha (broadly, mental calming) exercises. No doubt the the term also has divergent meanings in other Indian practice traditions. So why a 10-day vipassana course, rather than (say) a nine-day course? Is it a particular brand of "vipassana" that you are suggesting? In what respect is it a "course" - do you get a certificate at the end? Is there a test? The particular style of meditation referred to in the article is one I've never heard of before; BWV, or "Brain Wave Vibration". Oh dear, that sounds suspiciously like woo, so I'll google it. Hmmm. Apart from this NIH paper, I can't find anything about BWV that doesn't reek of hype or woo. Why did the researchers choose this particular obscure style of meditation? Judging by their names, it seems that many of the researchers are Korean. Perhaps BWV was invented by some Korean sect derived from buddhism. As far as I can tell, BWV is really a form of guided shamatha, incorporating physical movement. That's not unusual; both shamatha and vipassana are often performed while walking (saves leg stiffness from long periods of sitting). Calling it "yoga" doesn't help much; that's an even looser term than "vipassana". In both buddhist and shaivite traditions, all types of meditation are forms of yoga ("yoga" in Sanskrit just means "union" - or "yoke", like the wooden apparatus that unites two cattle for ploughing work). I'm aware that various styles of meditation have been productised and commercialised over the last couple of decades, and are now marketed for profit to knowledge-workers, executives and the like (i.e. suckers with not much time, but with money to burn). I'm deeply suspicious of these trends. If meditation costs anything, it costs time. Personal declaration: for about 30 years I used to do a lot of meditation in a buddhist tradition, but I think I've fully recovered from all that now.
  - idclip 7y ago
    I will post more as i find the resources; I have a health resource, stemming from obvious stress hormone reduction. Its a Sunday morning here; i will leave you for now with a registration website for a 10 day course: https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/courses/search https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/courses/search (It is near free, fees are commute, white clothes and a very optional donation, finishing a course is considered payment enough)
    - javajosh 7y ago
      Those courses are great! Regarding commute - there are ride shares available, especially if you come from a major city. And there is no need for special white clothes! (Although I'd avoid really extreme colors, logos, etc.).
    - alexcnwy 7y ago
      I did a 10 day retreat after burning out working at a hedge fund and I can highly highly recommend it. I must warn that it’s not easy. I thought a meditation retreat would be a great way to unplug and take it easy but the schedule is intense and meditating that much requires great energy and focus. Highly recommended but know what you’re getting into :)
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    Hardly. There probably are but I don't know any. I've figured this out logically and empirically. From the spiritual point of view (I follow Dzogchen), once you realize you are not your ego (which is a system of feelings, thoughts, perception etc.) but it is yours (a thing you own), learn to observe it from a distance and realize what you are (by turning your inner gaze back to the point where you observe the ego from) this will become obvious and all left to do is practice. Or the fivefold practice of Dawa Gyaltsen will give a clue. Practically it's like learning to swim - the first time you are put in the water you don't know you can but as you persist in your intention and keep on trying the skill develops and grows into a whole new dimension of freedom. From the scientific point of view all the feelings are chemical reactions involving substances like serotonin (produced from 5HTP/tryptophan), dopamine (produced from DOPA/tyrosine), norepinefrine, acetylcholine, GABA, glucose etc. with help of some other chemicals. E.g. it is not really hard to stop being angry at somebody when you realize the cause of your anger is merely a chemical imbalance rather than the person you are angry at. Even if he has actually done something wrong you don't have to actually be mad - you can act reasonably (even punish him or exclude him from your social circle if this seems rationally necessary) while maintaining great mood (which would be particularly easy if you were on xanax or something - just a proof it's all about chemistry) and maintaining great mood probably is what you actually want. As soon as you start thinking this way you just stop taking your emotions seriously (which doesn't mean you can't enjoy pleasant ones) and they (the unpleasant and impractical ones) fade away as you stop dedicating attention to them. The more you practice this the less of them even emerge.
kylek 7y ago
I couldn't agree more. Adding to the anecdotes- it took me a solid 4 months of sitting on my butt, once or twice a day 10-20 minutes each sit, to actually break free. It was HARD, and I've since fallen out of practice. But once I was able to hit that point of single-mindedness reliably, it absolutely made a day-and-night difference in my focus and well-being. It truly felt like having a secret weapon at my disposal. I really need to get back to it :/
- deepsun 7y ago
  Why did you fallen out of practice?
  - kylek 7y ago
    Life happens. To be honest I have a good amount of time these days. It's more about scheduling it (and sticking to it), at least at first. I don't think it would take me 4 months to get back to the level I was at (I've accumulated a few tools in my proverbial bag of tricks along the way)
- ramzyo 7y ago
  This mirrors my experience exactly, especially the last sentence!
- sedeki 7y ago
  While meditating, when did you choose to stop? I am guessing that having a timer is a big no-no, hehe.
  - Hammershaft 7y ago
    Having a timer is excellent because it keeps you from having to constantly utilize your attention to consider how long you have been sitting and how much longer you should sit.
    - codr7 7y ago
      While I can see the logic there, I would strongly recommend against alarms. The deeper you go, the more sensitive you become. Being pulled out abruptly is very uncomfortable, to the point where knowing what's coming will stand in the way of even trying. I would say sit as long as you feel like it, except that doesn't really help initially. Maybe put on a non-intrusive background track that fades out when time is up? And do take your time when coming back; start by listening, then opening the eyes slowly etc. Same goes for waking up from regular sleep, but refusing alarms in this society is a pretty serious compromise.
sedeki 7y ago
I think what you say kinda makes sense. To someone that is not practicing mindfulness, do you mind elaborating on "you're not _the voices_ in your head?". Are you talking about becoming an independent person that, while being aware of her environment, does not conform to it?
- codr7 7y ago
  I'm talking about choosing when and what to think, to not be a victim to your default settings. The rest follows by itself.
c22 7y ago
This is interesting to me because I don't meditate, but I also don't have "voices in my head" most of the time. There is a "voice" that is present while I am reading and I can summon it in order to work through something I want to say or write, also sometimes I "play music" in my head where the vocals are usually in the voice of the artist. By and large, though, my mind is usually "silent". Do most people hear voices all the time? Most of the time? I was under the impression hearing voices a lot was associated with psychosis and not the default way brains work.
- bdamm 7y ago
  It's not literally hearing voices, but rather observing the flow of thoughts. You feel hungry, there's a thought. You suddenly realize you forgot someone's birthday, there's a thought. You think about that chocolate bar you ate last week, boom there's a thought. So that's the "voices" or "monkey mind" that meditation practitioners will talk about.
- codr7 7y ago
  So you're saying that you never have anything going on in your head that you didn't choose? No uncomfortable thoughts that you have to push away? No egos lashing out at other people or telling you you're not good enough? If that's the case then congratulations are in order, most people have to put in some effort to get there. Maybe you're a natural, depends on where you came from. Being left alone to do your thing in a sane environment makes it easier to stay in touch. Whatever the case, there's never any harm in sitting still with closed eyes for ten minutes.
  - c22 7y ago
    > So you're saying that you never have anything going on in your head that you didn't choose? No uncomfortable thoughts that you have to push away? No egos lashing out at other people or telling you you're not good enough? Thanks for putting it this way. I definitely remember my brain used to do stuff like that, when I was a teenager, but it is not a state I can deeply relate to decades later. I recall making a conscious decision, around the time I was 19, to not get hung up on that stuff because it was not pragmatically useful to my physical life. So perhaps I have put some effort into "getting there" and it was just so long ago I've forgotten what it was like.
ncfausti 7y ago
This sounds a lot like the main idea behind the book "The Untethered Soul". Highly recommend to anyone interested in meditation, mindfulness, or letting go of everyday stress.
nine_k 7y ago
Next step is to realize that there's no single monolithic "you". It also saves a lot of embarrassment and internal struggle.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  Next step is microservices you :P
  - nine_k 7y ago
    It's a good metaphor.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Minsky’s ‘society of mind’ is pretty much this. :)
  - PedroBatista 7y ago
    And a good 10 day Kubernetes retreat.
    - james_s_tayler 7y ago
      That's you at web scale.
pier25 7y ago
> you can't be; since you're obviously capable of observing them from the outside while they go on with their business I think that's the wrong way to put it. You can observe those thoughts much like you can observe your hand with your eyes. That does not make your hand any less part of you than those thoughts. IMO the vast majority of the chatter in our minds are like any other involuntary process of our bodies. The difference is that we are culturally conditioned to identify with our minds and not our intestinal processes.
- serpix 7y ago
  chop your hand off. You will still remain. Remember your worst fever, you remained though your thoughts were muddled. Got separated from your partner? You still remained. This is a form of self enquiry to separate yourself from what you are not, to break the spell of identification. Some people are identified with not only their bodies but with their children but to their car, house, job, even the products of their work. These are all not you. After seeing what you are not, you start seeing what you really are. For that you will need this preparation work.
  - pier25 7y ago
    Yeah, I went through that process. I realized I am just the result of a biological process, in essence much like bacteria in a petri dish. There is really no separation between the mind and the body. We still don't fully understand consciousness, but we know most of our decision are taken unconsciously well before the conscious mind is aware of it. There are a myriad of books about this, but this wikipedia article is a good introduction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will
- wallace_f 7y ago
  Come on, this meme thar is 'everything is cultural bias' is getting ridiculous.
  - pier25 7y ago
    It's not a meme, at least not in this case. If you can unlearn to identify with the monkey mind it probably means this is something you learned.
jvanderbot 7y ago
Do you (or anyone) have recommendations on a type of meditation that does not totally disengage your mind? I have a problem that after lots of meditation I become more disengaged and "spacey". Its fine to look at myself in a detached way, but sometimes I want appropriate engagement with those feelings. During stressful times I don't end up more engaged or challenged, I just feel "checked out". This became pervasive in social situations as well.
- serpix 7y ago
  feeling checked out is a form of disassociation and could be a sign of burnout or trauma response. Meditation will give you the tools to recognize this, stay with it ans and embrace it fully. Even through text alone I sense there is fear of seeing what exactly happens when the thoughts quiet down. You'll be safe, you'll bring into surface what is causing this feeling. You'll be free of it.
- nprateem 7y ago
  Check out Taoist practices, specifically the Microcosmic Orbit. When a lot of chi enters the head it can lead to what you describe. The key is to 'ground' yourself by learning to bringing it back down. Physically stroking down from your head to your belly imagining you're drawing electrical energy down and circling your hands at your belly can help (touch the tip of your tongue to the roof of your mouth and imagine you're running energy/electricity down through it down to your belly). It's safer to store energy in your navel, throwing off any excess into the Earth. This can stop you feeling spaced out. Unfortunately I've not been entirely happy with most of the courses I've taken online though so can't really recommend one. I wasn't impressed with Michael Winn's courses [1] in general in case you stumble across his stuff, nor Ken Cohen. I'd suggest exploring books or look for other recommendations (The Tao Bums [2] could be a good place to start). The basics are pretty easy to pick up from books (but overall for meditation I'd say you need a real teacher, either in person or available for video tutoring/chats). [1] https://healingtaousa.com/ https://healingtaousa.com/ (seems to be giving a 500 at the moment) [2] https://www.thedaobums.com/ https://www.thedaobums.com/
  - gbuk2013 7y ago
visarga 7y ago
> you're not the voices in your head. I mean, you can't be; since you're obviously capable of observing them from the outside while they go on with their business. I don't follow this logic. The brain is a parallel system, parts of it remain active while not thinking. And observing thoughts has evolutionary usefulness for meta-learning (learning to learn, learning to reason). It's just one more layer in the hierarchy. By your logic, I am not the brain because I am observing its activity. But without it I am nothing, how does that work out? I think it is wrong to think I am just the brain - I am the brain plus the body, because the brain is formed inside the body, fed sensations and learned everything from the body. And the body itself is part of the environment, again, the brain learns everything from it and depends on it to develop. Even the perception of shape, sound, movement, hunger, language and society - they all come from the environment and the body and shape the mind. So I am at the junction of brain, body and environment, not a detached observer, and my purpose is to learn how to act optimally in all situations in order to keep my body alive and continue my genes. If I didn't, then my genes would have a worse chance of survival and filter our from the pool, thus they must fight for survival. We've been shaped by survival and environment. The 'I' is the result of this optimisation process in action. If 'I' didn't get up in the morning and take something to eat, work in order to have what I need, then 'I' would die. So 'I' is the caretaker of the body.
- eitland 7y ago
  > By your logic, I am not the brain because I am observing its activity. But without it I am nothing, how does that work out? I don't know your relationship with the concept of "soul" (and I'm writing this way to be careful), but many of us sometimes find it really useful to be able to talk about who we really are.
thelittleone 7y ago
>Once the spell is broken, the conserved energy and improved focus and control changes everything. Agree completely. "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone" - Blaise Pascal

by codr7 7y ago

qwerty456127 7y ago

The next step is to realize that despite you are not the voices in your head, the voices are in fact you and not something independent. Approximately like you are not your hand but your hand is you. Therefore you have power over them and can do whatever you want, at least within your head. It takes some training (especially to become able to exercise this in extreme circumstances, with your amygdalae stressed and with your levels of trytophan, dopa, gaba etc depleted) but you literally can feel whatever you choose to at any given moment.

ilrwbwrkhv 7y ago
can you share some more resources on this? sounds very interesting.
- TrainedMonkey 7y ago
  That is basic premise of the "The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself". That is where I learned of the concept.
  - scotch_drinker 7y ago
    +1 for this book as a starting point for removing yourself from the tyranny of your emotions.
    - thepinkelefant 7y ago
      Will also suggest to look at the entire Jainism religion which is not really a religion but a way of living life. It has laid out a extremely detailed description of how the soul is totally separate entity and the different tejas body and karam bodies that make Us up A detailed description in this article on the concept of Mind: Philosophy of Mind: A Jain Perspective https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/369b/7abd19f494d8b6d0f36115fb837c81ba655e.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/369b/7abd19f494d8b6d0f36115...
- coderintherye 7y ago
  "Zen mind, Beginner's mind" is a good resource as there is a good amount of discussion in there, especially the part on how we are both one and two, not either of these things, but both of these things at the same time.
- idclip 7y ago
  Why not Consider a 10 day vipassana course? Vipassana practitioners believe in generating their own truths as the nature of the mind reveals itself through meditation.
  - denton-scratch 7y ago
    "Vipassana" is an annoyingly-ambiguous term. It refers to a particular style of meditation, as taught by a particular teacher and his acolytes - a form of no-self insight mediation, based on a systematic examination of all the things that might constitute a self. It also refers generally to "insight" meditation, where "insight" might depend on whether you are training in a mahayana or hinayana tradition (in hinayana, it's insight into no-self, in mahayana, it's insight into emptiness). It might refer to silent but discursive reflection, based on instructions; or it might be a concept-free state of "resting the mind", arising spontaneously from various kinds of shamatha/samatha (broadly, mental calming) exercises. No doubt the the term also has divergent meanings in other Indian practice traditions. So why a 10-day vipassana course, rather than (say) a nine-day course? Is it a particular brand of "vipassana" that you are suggesting? In what respect is it a "course" - do you get a certificate at the end? Is there a test? The particular style of meditation referred to in the article is one I've never heard of before; BWV, or "Brain Wave Vibration". Oh dear, that sounds suspiciously like woo, so I'll google it. Hmmm. Apart from this NIH paper, I can't find anything about BWV that doesn't reek of hype or woo. Why did the researchers choose this particular obscure style of meditation? Judging by their names, it seems that many of the researchers are Korean. Perhaps BWV was invented by some Korean sect derived from buddhism. As far as I can tell, BWV is really a form of guided shamatha, incorporating physical movement. That's not unusual; both shamatha and vipassana are often performed while walking (saves leg stiffness from long periods of sitting). Calling it "yoga" doesn't help much; that's an even looser term than "vipassana". In both buddhist and shaivite traditions, all types of meditation are forms of yoga ("yoga" in Sanskrit just means "union" - or "yoke", like the wooden apparatus that unites two cattle for ploughing work). I'm aware that various styles of meditation have been productised and commercialised over the last couple of decades, and are now marketed for profit to knowledge-workers, executives and the like (i.e. suckers with not much time, but with money to burn). I'm deeply suspicious of these trends. If meditation costs anything, it costs time. Personal declaration: for about 30 years I used to do a lot of meditation in a buddhist tradition, but I think I've fully recovered from all that now.
- idclip 7y ago
  I will post more as i find the resources; I have a health resource, stemming from obvious stress hormone reduction. Its a Sunday morning here; i will leave you for now with a registration website for a 10 day course: https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/courses/search https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/courses/search (It is near free, fees are commute, white clothes and a very optional donation, finishing a course is considered payment enough)
  - javajosh 7y ago
    Those courses are great! Regarding commute - there are ride shares available, especially if you come from a major city. And there is no need for special white clothes! (Although I'd avoid really extreme colors, logos, etc.).
  - alexcnwy 7y ago
    I did a 10 day retreat after burning out working at a hedge fund and I can highly highly recommend it. I must warn that it’s not easy. I thought a meditation retreat would be a great way to unplug and take it easy but the schedule is intense and meditating that much requires great energy and focus. Highly recommended but know what you’re getting into :)
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Hardly. There probably are but I don't know any. I've figured this out logically and empirically. From the spiritual point of view (I follow Dzogchen), once you realize you are not your ego (which is a system of feelings, thoughts, perception etc.) but it is yours (a thing you own), learn to observe it from a distance and realize what you are (by turning your inner gaze back to the point where you observe the ego from) this will become obvious and all left to do is practice. Or the fivefold practice of Dawa Gyaltsen will give a clue. Practically it's like learning to swim - the first time you are put in the water you don't know you can but as you persist in your intention and keep on trying the skill develops and grows into a whole new dimension of freedom. From the scientific point of view all the feelings are chemical reactions involving substances like serotonin (produced from 5HTP/tryptophan), dopamine (produced from DOPA/tyrosine), norepinefrine, acetylcholine, GABA, glucose etc. with help of some other chemicals. E.g. it is not really hard to stop being angry at somebody when you realize the cause of your anger is merely a chemical imbalance rather than the person you are angry at. Even if he has actually done something wrong you don't have to actually be mad - you can act reasonably (even punish him or exclude him from your social circle if this seems rationally necessary) while maintaining great mood (which would be particularly easy if you were on xanax or something - just a proof it's all about chemistry) and maintaining great mood probably is what you actually want. As soon as you start thinking this way you just stop taking your emotions seriously (which doesn't mean you can't enjoy pleasant ones) and they (the unpleasant and impractical ones) fade away as you stop dedicating attention to them. The more you practice this the less of them even emerge.

kylek 7y ago

I couldn't agree more. Adding to the anecdotes- it took me a solid 4 months of sitting on my butt, once or twice a day 10-20 minutes each sit, to actually break free. It was HARD, and I've since fallen out of practice. But once I was able to hit that point of single-mindedness reliably, it absolutely made a day-and-night difference in my focus and well-being. It truly felt like having a secret weapon at my disposal. I really need to get back to it :/

deepsun 7y ago
Why did you fallen out of practice?
- kylek 7y ago
  Life happens. To be honest I have a good amount of time these days. It's more about scheduling it (and sticking to it), at least at first. I don't think it would take me 4 months to get back to the level I was at (I've accumulated a few tools in my proverbial bag of tricks along the way)
ramzyo 7y ago
This mirrors my experience exactly, especially the last sentence!
sedeki 7y ago
While meditating, when did you choose to stop? I am guessing that having a timer is a big no-no, hehe.
- Hammershaft 7y ago
  Having a timer is excellent because it keeps you from having to constantly utilize your attention to consider how long you have been sitting and how much longer you should sit.
  - codr7 7y ago
    While I can see the logic there, I would strongly recommend against alarms. The deeper you go, the more sensitive you become. Being pulled out abruptly is very uncomfortable, to the point where knowing what's coming will stand in the way of even trying. I would say sit as long as you feel like it, except that doesn't really help initially. Maybe put on a non-intrusive background track that fades out when time is up? And do take your time when coming back; start by listening, then opening the eyes slowly etc. Same goes for waking up from regular sleep, but refusing alarms in this society is a pretty serious compromise.

sedeki 7y ago

I think what you say kinda makes sense. To someone that is not practicing mindfulness, do you mind elaborating on "you're not _the voices_ in your head?". Are you talking about becoming an independent person that, while being aware of her environment, does not conform to it?

codr7 7y ago
I'm talking about choosing when and what to think, to not be a victim to your default settings. The rest follows by itself.

c22 7y ago

This is interesting to me because I don't meditate, but I also don't have "voices in my head" most of the time. There is a "voice" that is present while I am reading and I can summon it in order to work through something I want to say or write, also sometimes I "play music" in my head where the vocals are usually in the voice of the artist. By and large, though, my mind is usually "silent". Do most people hear voices all the time? Most of the time? I was under the impression hearing voices a lot was associated with psychosis and not the default way brains work.

bdamm 7y ago
It's not literally hearing voices, but rather observing the flow of thoughts. You feel hungry, there's a thought. You suddenly realize you forgot someone's birthday, there's a thought. You think about that chocolate bar you ate last week, boom there's a thought. So that's the "voices" or "monkey mind" that meditation practitioners will talk about.
codr7 7y ago
So you're saying that you never have anything going on in your head that you didn't choose? No uncomfortable thoughts that you have to push away? No egos lashing out at other people or telling you you're not good enough? If that's the case then congratulations are in order, most people have to put in some effort to get there. Maybe you're a natural, depends on where you came from. Being left alone to do your thing in a sane environment makes it easier to stay in touch. Whatever the case, there's never any harm in sitting still with closed eyes for ten minutes.
- c22 7y ago
  > So you're saying that you never have anything going on in your head that you didn't choose? No uncomfortable thoughts that you have to push away? No egos lashing out at other people or telling you you're not good enough? Thanks for putting it this way. I definitely remember my brain used to do stuff like that, when I was a teenager, but it is not a state I can deeply relate to decades later. I recall making a conscious decision, around the time I was 19, to not get hung up on that stuff because it was not pragmatically useful to my physical life. So perhaps I have put some effort into "getting there" and it was just so long ago I've forgotten what it was like.

ncfausti 7y ago

This sounds a lot like the main idea behind the book "The Untethered Soul". Highly recommend to anyone interested in meditation, mindfulness, or letting go of everyday stress.

nine_k 7y ago

Next step is to realize that there's no single monolithic "you". It also saves a lot of embarrassment and internal struggle.

james_s_tayler 7y ago
Next step is microservices you :P
- nine_k 7y ago
  It's a good metaphor.
- taneq 7y ago
  Minsky’s ‘society of mind’ is pretty much this. :)
- PedroBatista 7y ago
  And a good 10 day Kubernetes retreat.
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    That's you at web scale.

pier25 7y ago

> you can't be; since you're obviously capable of observing them from the outside while they go on with their business I think that's the wrong way to put it. You can observe those thoughts much like you can observe your hand with your eyes. That does not make your hand any less part of you than those thoughts. IMO the vast majority of the chatter in our minds are like any other involuntary process of our bodies. The difference is that we are culturally conditioned to identify with our minds and not our intestinal processes.

serpix 7y ago
chop your hand off. You will still remain. Remember your worst fever, you remained though your thoughts were muddled. Got separated from your partner? You still remained. This is a form of self enquiry to separate yourself from what you are not, to break the spell of identification. Some people are identified with not only their bodies but with their children but to their car, house, job, even the products of their work. These are all not you. After seeing what you are not, you start seeing what you really are. For that you will need this preparation work.
- pier25 7y ago
  Yeah, I went through that process. I realized I am just the result of a biological process, in essence much like bacteria in a petri dish. There is really no separation between the mind and the body. We still don't fully understand consciousness, but we know most of our decision are taken unconsciously well before the conscious mind is aware of it. There are a myriad of books about this, but this wikipedia article is a good introduction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will
wallace_f 7y ago
Come on, this meme thar is 'everything is cultural bias' is getting ridiculous.
- pier25 7y ago
  It's not a meme, at least not in this case. If you can unlearn to identify with the monkey mind it probably means this is something you learned.

jvanderbot 7y ago

Do you (or anyone) have recommendations on a type of meditation that does not totally disengage your mind? I have a problem that after lots of meditation I become more disengaged and "spacey". Its fine to look at myself in a detached way, but sometimes I want appropriate engagement with those feelings. During stressful times I don't end up more engaged or challenged, I just feel "checked out". This became pervasive in social situations as well.

serpix 7y ago
feeling checked out is a form of disassociation and could be a sign of burnout or trauma response. Meditation will give you the tools to recognize this, stay with it ans and embrace it fully. Even through text alone I sense there is fear of seeing what exactly happens when the thoughts quiet down. You'll be safe, you'll bring into surface what is causing this feeling. You'll be free of it.
nprateem 7y ago
Check out Taoist practices, specifically the Microcosmic Orbit. When a lot of chi enters the head it can lead to what you describe. The key is to 'ground' yourself by learning to bringing it back down. Physically stroking down from your head to your belly imagining you're drawing electrical energy down and circling your hands at your belly can help (touch the tip of your tongue to the roof of your mouth and imagine you're running energy/electricity down through it down to your belly). It's safer to store energy in your navel, throwing off any excess into the Earth. This can stop you feeling spaced out. Unfortunately I've not been entirely happy with most of the courses I've taken online though so can't really recommend one. I wasn't impressed with Michael Winn's courses [1] in general in case you stumble across his stuff, nor Ken Cohen. I'd suggest exploring books or look for other recommendations (The Tao Bums [2] could be a good place to start). The basics are pretty easy to pick up from books (but overall for meditation I'd say you need a real teacher, either in person or available for video tutoring/chats). [1] https://healingtaousa.com/ https://healingtaousa.com/ (seems to be giving a 500 at the moment) [2] https://www.thedaobums.com/ https://www.thedaobums.com/
- gbuk2013 7y ago

visarga 7y ago

> you're not the voices in your head. I mean, you can't be; since you're obviously capable of observing them from the outside while they go on with their business. I don't follow this logic. The brain is a parallel system, parts of it remain active while not thinking. And observing thoughts has evolutionary usefulness for meta-learning (learning to learn, learning to reason). It's just one more layer in the hierarchy. By your logic, I am not the brain because I am observing its activity. But without it I am nothing, how does that work out? I think it is wrong to think I am just the brain - I am the brain plus the body, because the brain is formed inside the body, fed sensations and learned everything from the body. And the body itself is part of the environment, again, the brain learns everything from it and depends on it to develop. Even the perception of shape, sound, movement, hunger, language and society - they all come from the environment and the body and shape the mind. So I am at the junction of brain, body and environment, not a detached observer, and my purpose is to learn how to act optimally in all situations in order to keep my body alive and continue my genes. If I didn't, then my genes would have a worse chance of survival and filter our from the pool, thus they must fight for survival. We've been shaped by survival and environment. The 'I' is the result of this optimisation process in action. If 'I' didn't get up in the morning and take something to eat, work in order to have what I need, then 'I' would die. So 'I' is the caretaker of the body.

eitland 7y ago
> By your logic, I am not the brain because I am observing its activity. But without it I am nothing, how does that work out? I don't know your relationship with the concept of "soul" (and I'm writing this way to be careful), but many of us sometimes find it really useful to be able to talk about who we really are.

thelittleone 7y ago

>Once the spell is broken, the conserved energy and improved focus and control changes everything. Agree completely. "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone" - Blaise Pascal