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Which is why you generally almost never use the standard malloc to do your piecemeal allocations. A fair number of codebases I've seen allocate their big memory

Which is why you generally almost never use the standard malloc to do your piecemeal allocations. A fair number of codebases I've seen allocate their big memory pools at startup, and then have custom allocators which provide memory for (often little-'o') objects out of that pool. You really aren't continually asking the OS for memory on the heap. In fact, doing that is often a really bad idea in general because of the extreme importance of cache effects. In a high-performance game engine, you need to have a fine degree of control over where your game objects get placed, because you need to ensure your iterations are blazingly fast.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Doesn’t this just change semantics? Whatever custom handlers you wrote for manipulating that big chunk of memory are now the garbage collector. You’re just asking for finer grained control than what the native garbage collection implementation supports, but you are not omitting garbage collection. Ostensibly you could do the exact same thing in e.g. Python if you wanted, by disabling with the gc module and just writing custom allocation and cleanup in e.g. Cython. Probably similar in many different managed environment languages.
- mntmoss 7y ago
  The semantics matter. A lot of game engines use a mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer. It is temporary throwaway data for that frame's computation. It does not get tracked or freed piecemeal - it gets blown away. Garbage collection emulates the intent of this method with generational collection strategies, but it has to use a heuristic to do so. And you can optimize your code to behave very similarly within a GC, but the UI to the strategy is full of workarounds. It is more invasive to your code than applying an actual manual allocator.
  - PrototypeNM1 7y ago
    > A lot of game engines use a mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer. I've heard of this concept but a search for "mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer" returned this thread. Is there something else I could search?
    - theresistor 7y ago
      It’s just a variation of arena allocation. You allocate everything for the current frame in an arena. When the frame is complete. You free the entire arena, without needing any heap walking. A generational GC achieves a similar end result, but has to heuristically discover the generations, whereas an arena allocator achieves the same result deterministically And without extra heap walking.
    - meheleventyone 7y ago
      Linear or stack allocator are other common terms. Just a memory arena where an allocation is just a pointer bump and you free the whole buffer at once by returning the pointer to the start of the arena.
- therein 7y ago
  I mean, nobody is suggesting they leave the garbage around and not clean up after themselves. But instead what you can do is to reuse the "slots" you are handing out from your allocator's memory arena for allocations of some specific type/kind/size/lifetime. If you are controlling how that arena is managed, you will find yourself coming across many opportunities to avoid doing things a general purpose GC/allocator would choose to do in favor of the needs dictated by your specific use case. For instance you can choose to draw the frame and throw away all the resources you used to draw that frame in one go.
- pyrale 7y ago
  You can do many things in many languages. You may realize in the process that doing useful things is made harder when your use case is not a common concern in the language.
- correct_horse 7y ago
  C's free() gives memory back to the operating system(1), whereas, as a performance optimization, many GCd languages don't give memory back after they run a garbage collection (see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/324499/java-still-uses-system-memory-after-deallocation-of-objects-and-garbage-collectio https://stackoverflow.com/questions/324499/java-still-uses-s...). Every Python program is using a "custom allocator," only it is built in to the Python runtime. You may argue that this is a dishonest use of the term custom allocator, but custom is difficult to define (It could be defined as any allocator used in only one project, but that definition has multiple problems). The way I see it, there are allocators that free to the OS and those that don't or usually don't (hereafter referred to as custom). In C, a custom allocator conceivably could be built into, say, a game engine. You might call ge_free(ptr) which would signal to the custom allocator that chunk of memory is available and ge_malloc() would use the first biggest chunk of internally allocated memory, calling normal malloc() if necessary. Custom allocators in C are a bit more than just semantics, and affect performance (for allocation-heavy code). Furthermore, they are distinct from GC, as they can work with allocate/free semantics, rather than allocate/forget (standard GC) semantics. Yes, one could technically change any GCd language to use a custom allocator written by one's self. But Python can't use allocate/free semantics (so don't expect any speedup). Python code never attempts manual memory management, (i.e. 3rd party functions allocate on the heap all the time without calling free()) because that is how Python is supposed to work. To use manual memory management semantics in Python, you would need to rewrite every Python method with a string or any user defined type in it to properly free. (1) malloc implementations generally allocate a page at a time and give the page back to the OS when all objects in the page are gone. ptr = malloc(1); malloc(1); free(ptr); doesn't give the single allocated page back to the OS.
  - takeda 7y ago
    Python is a bad example to talk about gc, because it uses different garbage collector than most of languages. It is also the primary reason why getting rid of GIL and retaing performance is so hard. Python uses reference counters and as soon as the reference count drops to 0 it immediately frees the object, so in a way it is more predictable. It has also a traditional GC and I guess that's what was mentioned you can disable it. The reason for it is that reference count won't free memory of there is a loop (e.g. object A references B and B references A, in that case both have reference count 1 even though nothing is using them), do that's where the traditional GC steps in.
- asveikau 7y ago
  Getting rid of this buffer is literally nothing. There is no free upon the individual objects needed. You just forget there was anything there and use the same buffer for the next frame. Vs. Waiting for a GC to detect thousands of unused objects in that buffer and discard them, meanwhile creating a new batch of thousands of objects and having to figure out where to put those.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

Doesn’t this just change semantics? Whatever custom handlers you wrote for manipulating that big chunk of memory are now the garbage collector. You’re just asking for finer grained control than what the native garbage collection implementation supports, but you are not omitting garbage collection. Ostensibly you could do the exact same thing in e.g. Python if you wanted, by disabling with the gc module and just writing custom allocation and cleanup in e.g. Cython. Probably similar in many different managed environment languages.

mntmoss 7y ago
The semantics matter. A lot of game engines use a mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer. It is temporary throwaway data for that frame's computation. It does not get tracked or freed piecemeal - it gets blown away. Garbage collection emulates the intent of this method with generational collection strategies, but it has to use a heuristic to do so. And you can optimize your code to behave very similarly within a GC, but the UI to the strategy is full of workarounds. It is more invasive to your code than applying an actual manual allocator.
- PrototypeNM1 7y ago
  > A lot of game engines use a mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer. I've heard of this concept but a search for "mark-and-release per-frame allocation buffer" returned this thread. Is there something else I could search?
  - theresistor 7y ago
    It’s just a variation of arena allocation. You allocate everything for the current frame in an arena. When the frame is complete. You free the entire arena, without needing any heap walking. A generational GC achieves a similar end result, but has to heuristically discover the generations, whereas an arena allocator achieves the same result deterministically And without extra heap walking.
  - meheleventyone 7y ago
    Linear or stack allocator are other common terms. Just a memory arena where an allocation is just a pointer bump and you free the whole buffer at once by returning the pointer to the start of the arena.
therein 7y ago
I mean, nobody is suggesting they leave the garbage around and not clean up after themselves. But instead what you can do is to reuse the "slots" you are handing out from your allocator's memory arena for allocations of some specific type/kind/size/lifetime. If you are controlling how that arena is managed, you will find yourself coming across many opportunities to avoid doing things a general purpose GC/allocator would choose to do in favor of the needs dictated by your specific use case. For instance you can choose to draw the frame and throw away all the resources you used to draw that frame in one go.
pyrale 7y ago
You can do many things in many languages. You may realize in the process that doing useful things is made harder when your use case is not a common concern in the language.
correct_horse 7y ago
C's free() gives memory back to the operating system(1), whereas, as a performance optimization, many GCd languages don't give memory back after they run a garbage collection (see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/324499/java-still-uses-system-memory-after-deallocation-of-objects-and-garbage-collectio https://stackoverflow.com/questions/324499/java-still-uses-s...). Every Python program is using a "custom allocator," only it is built in to the Python runtime. You may argue that this is a dishonest use of the term custom allocator, but custom is difficult to define (It could be defined as any allocator used in only one project, but that definition has multiple problems). The way I see it, there are allocators that free to the OS and those that don't or usually don't (hereafter referred to as custom). In C, a custom allocator conceivably could be built into, say, a game engine. You might call ge_free(ptr) which would signal to the custom allocator that chunk of memory is available and ge_malloc() would use the first biggest chunk of internally allocated memory, calling normal malloc() if necessary. Custom allocators in C are a bit more than just semantics, and affect performance (for allocation-heavy code). Furthermore, they are distinct from GC, as they can work with allocate/free semantics, rather than allocate/forget (standard GC) semantics. Yes, one could technically change any GCd language to use a custom allocator written by one's self. But Python can't use allocate/free semantics (so don't expect any speedup). Python code never attempts manual memory management, (i.e. 3rd party functions allocate on the heap all the time without calling free()) because that is how Python is supposed to work. To use manual memory management semantics in Python, you would need to rewrite every Python method with a string or any user defined type in it to properly free. (1) malloc implementations generally allocate a page at a time and give the page back to the OS when all objects in the page are gone. ptr = malloc(1); malloc(1); free(ptr); doesn't give the single allocated page back to the OS.
- takeda 7y ago
  Python is a bad example to talk about gc, because it uses different garbage collector than most of languages. It is also the primary reason why getting rid of GIL and retaing performance is so hard. Python uses reference counters and as soon as the reference count drops to 0 it immediately frees the object, so in a way it is more predictable. It has also a traditional GC and I guess that's what was mentioned you can disable it. The reason for it is that reference count won't free memory of there is a loop (e.g. object A references B and B references A, in that case both have reference count 1 even though nothing is using them), do that's where the traditional GC steps in.
asveikau 7y ago
Getting rid of this buffer is literally nothing. There is no free upon the individual objects needed. You just forget there was anything there and use the same buffer for the next frame. Vs. Waiting for a GC to detect thousands of unused objects in that buffer and discard them, meanwhile creating a new batch of thousands of objects and having to figure out where to put those.