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> So it would be interesting to find out whether the PR campaign actually changes anyone's behavior. That's begging the question as to whether the behavior nee

by human20190310 7y ago

> So it would be interesting to find out whether the PR campaign actually changes anyone's behavior. That's begging the question as to whether the behavior needs changing. Is there a pervasive trust/integrity problem in China?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Scams are very common in China. If you ever decide to visit, do a favor for yourself and brush up on the latest ones so you have a good trip.
the_resistence 7y ago
It's horrible...
yorwba 7y ago
I don't know about "pervasive", but there are definitely some people trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. I know someone involved with an MLM scam selling "fuel saving cards" that are supposed to quantum-mechanically reduce fuel consumption by sticking them to your gas tank.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  I'm ambivalent about this kind of thing. One one hand it takes advantage of people's stupidity, on the other, if people let themselves be that dumb then they deserve what they get. I distinguish 'are that dumb' (children, some people with senility etc. who need protecting) from those who 'let themselves be that dumb' such as mystic belief in homoepathy, or that read up on the latest cancer cure in the Daily Mail (a right-wing UK rag). Elective credulity deserves no protection or respect IMO. But opposing views welcome.
  - gowld 7y ago
    Yes, children are not responsible for their actions until they turn 18, at which point they are magically instilled with wisdom and accountability regardless of upbringing. Credulity is not "elective". There's no way for the average person to distinguish between homeopathy and pharmaceuticals without running an experiment on themselves. It's a matter of what biases they were taught growing up.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      > Credulity is not "elective". Often it is. > There's no way for the average person to distinguish between homeopathy and pharmaceuticals without running an experiment on themselves There are plenty of scientific reports and examinations that have been done so they don't have to. If they chose to ignore those, they must have done so willingly. Your answer was not one of the better ones.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      Well, here's a handy example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034424 which leads to https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/17/healing-crystals-wellness-mining-madagascar https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/17/healing... Some quotes: - The model Miranda Kerr has said that she filters all her skincare products through rose quartz “to give the vibration of self-love”. - Believers say crystals conduct ambient energy – like miniature phone towers picking up signals and channelling them on to the user – thus rebalancing malign energies, healing the body and mind - According to Pew Research Center data, more than 60% of US adults hold at least one “new age” belief, such as placing faith in astrology or the power of psychics, and 42% think spiritual energy can be located in physical objects such as crystals - Last year, Paltrow faced (and settled) a misleading advertising lawsuit for claiming that Goop’s vaginal egg crystals had the power to balance hormones and regulate menstrual cycles What's this if it's not stupidity-by-choice? Let's have an answer instead of downvotes because I'd really like to hear what you think.
  - shredprez 7y ago
    Incentivizing profit on elective credulity is a great way to drain tons of consumptive (and second-order productive) capacity out of your economy to the benefit of the ethically bankrupt. "Idiots deserve to suffer" is a shaky assertion even in a vacuum. In the real world, where most of us are idiots about some things and are therefore surrounded by idiots at all times, it's just (self-)destructive.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      > "Idiots deserve to suffer" is a shaky assertion It is, which is why I added my rider at the end. But as they say, make a foolproof world and watch it fill up with fools. The ethically bankrupt may benefit from fools, but if we protect foolish adults from the consequences of their actions, we take away precisely that which makes them adults - the ability to make a meaningful choice, and to take responsibility for the consequences arising. > where most of us are idiots about some things Yes, me too, and lots. But I learn from it and where I get hurt, well that's just the price of being an adult. The alternative is perhaps living in china or communist russia and have the government run your life. I'd prefer not to have that. I don't like the many scars (some physical, some psychological) I've got through life but each one is valuable where I chose to learn from it. Adulthood is choice.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        I'd prefer to live in a world where the government doesn't run my life and where I don't have to constantly watch my back (both literally and financially). Neither of those is freedom. Now, you may be tempted to say "Sure, and you'd like a pony, too". But in fact, there are societies that are much less fraud-prone. Ravi Zacharias talked about going to a dairy in Holland, and being surprised that you could just walk in, take milk, and leave money in a bowl. There was nobody there to watch you. He said that in India, there would have to be somebody there to watch customers, or they would steal the milk. He told this to a man from Egypt, who replied that in Egypt, they would steal the cows. A society full of people who are looking to steal is an objectively worse society to live in than one with people who are not looking to steal. The trick is, how do you create such a society when you don't have one (without a heavy-handed government)?
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > if people let themselves be that dumb then they deserve what they get. That's how pretty much every con artist justifies being a criminal. In my opinion, it's a morally and ethically bankrupt argument.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      And sometimes they maybe have a point. Ponzi schemes exist because people chose not to see what's right in front of them, that those returns are not credible. See my answer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21032129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21032129 elsewhere on this thread and rebut that, because if you can then we can perhaps, perhaps, suggest something better. I sound like I'm arguing for con artists but |I'm not, they are maybe a price that has to be paid. I really don't know. Maybe there's a better way. I don't know.
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        > Ponzi schemes exist because people chose not to see what's right in front of them, that those returns are not credible. I think we may differ in what counts as "choosing" here...
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Ok, that may be a wrong word. What would be a better description?
        JohnFen 7y ago
        "blind to", maybe? The thing is that people who fall for scams (and make no mistake, all of us can fall for a scam if presented with the right one) honestly don't think they're scams. They're being lied to. The fault for this lies entirely on the shoulders of the criminal.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        > They're being lied to. If the lie is obvious many people will look away out of greed. There's a saying that if you deceive someone then at some level they wanted to be deceived, and while that's pretty self-serving for the criminal there's also a fat grain of truth in it. > The fault for this lies entirely on the shoulders of the criminal. Well, technically yes but in reality people are willingly dumb, which rather abets the criminal, no? I'm afraid we must agree to disagree.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
Yes there is. People are worried about scams all the time, much more often than in the west.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

Scams are very common in China. If you ever decide to visit, do a favor for yourself and brush up on the latest ones so you have a good trip.

the_resistence 7y ago

It's horrible...

yorwba 7y ago

I don't know about "pervasive", but there are definitely some people trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. I know someone involved with an MLM scam selling "fuel saving cards" that are supposed to quantum-mechanically reduce fuel consumption by sticking them to your gas tank.

tempguy9999 7y ago
I'm ambivalent about this kind of thing. One one hand it takes advantage of people's stupidity, on the other, if people let themselves be that dumb then they deserve what they get. I distinguish 'are that dumb' (children, some people with senility etc. who need protecting) from those who 'let themselves be that dumb' such as mystic belief in homoepathy, or that read up on the latest cancer cure in the Daily Mail (a right-wing UK rag). Elective credulity deserves no protection or respect IMO. But opposing views welcome.
- gowld 7y ago
  Yes, children are not responsible for their actions until they turn 18, at which point they are magically instilled with wisdom and accountability regardless of upbringing. Credulity is not "elective". There's no way for the average person to distinguish between homeopathy and pharmaceuticals without running an experiment on themselves. It's a matter of what biases they were taught growing up.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > Credulity is not "elective". Often it is. > There's no way for the average person to distinguish between homeopathy and pharmaceuticals without running an experiment on themselves There are plenty of scientific reports and examinations that have been done so they don't have to. If they chose to ignore those, they must have done so willingly. Your answer was not one of the better ones.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Well, here's a handy example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21034424 which leads to https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/17/healing-crystals-wellness-mining-madagascar https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/sep/17/healing... Some quotes: - The model Miranda Kerr has said that she filters all her skincare products through rose quartz “to give the vibration of self-love”. - Believers say crystals conduct ambient energy – like miniature phone towers picking up signals and channelling them on to the user – thus rebalancing malign energies, healing the body and mind - According to Pew Research Center data, more than 60% of US adults hold at least one “new age” belief, such as placing faith in astrology or the power of psychics, and 42% think spiritual energy can be located in physical objects such as crystals - Last year, Paltrow faced (and settled) a misleading advertising lawsuit for claiming that Goop’s vaginal egg crystals had the power to balance hormones and regulate menstrual cycles What's this if it's not stupidity-by-choice? Let's have an answer instead of downvotes because I'd really like to hear what you think.
- shredprez 7y ago
  Incentivizing profit on elective credulity is a great way to drain tons of consumptive (and second-order productive) capacity out of your economy to the benefit of the ethically bankrupt. "Idiots deserve to suffer" is a shaky assertion even in a vacuum. In the real world, where most of us are idiots about some things and are therefore surrounded by idiots at all times, it's just (self-)destructive.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > "Idiots deserve to suffer" is a shaky assertion It is, which is why I added my rider at the end. But as they say, make a foolproof world and watch it fill up with fools. The ethically bankrupt may benefit from fools, but if we protect foolish adults from the consequences of their actions, we take away precisely that which makes them adults - the ability to make a meaningful choice, and to take responsibility for the consequences arising. > where most of us are idiots about some things Yes, me too, and lots. But I learn from it and where I get hurt, well that's just the price of being an adult. The alternative is perhaps living in china or communist russia and have the government run your life. I'd prefer not to have that. I don't like the many scars (some physical, some psychological) I've got through life but each one is valuable where I chose to learn from it. Adulthood is choice.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I'd prefer to live in a world where the government doesn't run my life and where I don't have to constantly watch my back (both literally and financially). Neither of those is freedom. Now, you may be tempted to say "Sure, and you'd like a pony, too". But in fact, there are societies that are much less fraud-prone. Ravi Zacharias talked about going to a dairy in Holland, and being surprised that you could just walk in, take milk, and leave money in a bowl. There was nobody there to watch you. He said that in India, there would have to be somebody there to watch customers, or they would steal the milk. He told this to a man from Egypt, who replied that in Egypt, they would steal the cows. A society full of people who are looking to steal is an objectively worse society to live in than one with people who are not looking to steal. The trick is, how do you create such a society when you don't have one (without a heavy-handed government)?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > if people let themselves be that dumb then they deserve what they get. That's how pretty much every con artist justifies being a criminal. In my opinion, it's a morally and ethically bankrupt argument.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    And sometimes they maybe have a point. Ponzi schemes exist because people chose not to see what's right in front of them, that those returns are not credible. See my answer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21032129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21032129 elsewhere on this thread and rebut that, because if you can then we can perhaps, perhaps, suggest something better. I sound like I'm arguing for con artists but |I'm not, they are maybe a price that has to be paid. I really don't know. Maybe there's a better way. I don't know.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > Ponzi schemes exist because people chose not to see what's right in front of them, that those returns are not credible. I think we may differ in what counts as "choosing" here...
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        Ok, that may be a wrong word. What would be a better description?
        JohnFen 7y ago
        "blind to", maybe? The thing is that people who fall for scams (and make no mistake, all of us can fall for a scam if presented with the right one) honestly don't think they're scams. They're being lied to. The fault for this lies entirely on the shoulders of the criminal.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        > They're being lied to. If the lie is obvious many people will look away out of greed. There's a saying that if you deceive someone then at some level they wanted to be deceived, and while that's pretty self-serving for the criminal there's also a fat grain of truth in it. > The fault for this lies entirely on the shoulders of the criminal. Well, technically yes but in reality people are willingly dumb, which rather abets the criminal, no? I'm afraid we must agree to disagree.

FooBarWidget 7y ago

Yes there is. People are worried about scams all the time, much more often than in the west.