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Volkswagen unveils the ID.3, its first affordable long-range electric car
- jjtheblunt 7y agoVW ID.3 sure looks like a BMW i3, 5 years improved.
- kabes 7y agoThey claim an 8 year / 160K km warranty on their battery. But this usually means they claim to have X percent capacity left after this time. E.g. for the BMW i3 it's 70%. But how can a car owner even measure this? How would one go about claiming this warranty if he thinks it degraded too much?
- cbg0 7y ago> But how can a car owner even measure this? You simply check what range you have with a full charge and compare with the advertised range or the range you had when you bought it new for your typical commute.
- mobilemidget 7y agoWhy do electric cars have such different wheels, almost closed discs style? I still have to see the first Tesla with chrome rims.
- tlb 7y agoLower air resistance gives longer range. The Tesla Model S has spoked aluminum rims in black. For some reason, nobody customizes them.
- magicalhippo 7y agoRegenerative breaking also means less heat in the breaks I guess, so less need for cooling. Not sure how much that matters tho.
- jillesvangurp 7y agoMotors integrated into the wheel might become a thing as well.
- magicalhippo 7y agoYou mean make a comeback. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche
- tlb 7y agoThat car would have been more popular if you could tell, by looking at it, which end was the front.
- notJim 7y agoAll the negativity is overlooking that this is a really exciting time for electric cars, IMO. Aside from price, Tesla is still by far the best option around as far as I can tell, but it's exciting that there are so many new cars coming out. An electric car doesn't quite work for me right now because of the limited charging options, but it seems like that's going to change rapidly.
- Gibbon1 7y agoStarting a few years ago industrial/automotive electronic manufacturers started heavily marketing stuff for electric cars and 'smart car' electronics. Before that the industry was slightly sleepy. EV's mean a total rethinking of just about everything automotive.
- fnord77 7y agoYou can buy a Chevy Bolt today and it has a longer range.
- tyingq 7y ago"the ID.3 will come in three variants that offer between roughly 205 and 340 miles of range" The 2020 Bolt appears to have 259 miles of range, up from 238 for the 2019 model.
- sowbug 7y agoVW says the base version of the ID.3 will only charge at up to 50kW, and owners who want to charge faster (up to 100kW) will have to pay extra This is an unfortunate decision. Charging EVs is a collective-action problem. Selling cars that have at least double the charging time at capable public chargers contributes to that collective-action problem. VW could have set a relatively quick lower boundary on charging speed, perhaps by raising the price of the higher-version models to subsidize the price of a 100kW base model. The problem is worse for this class of car, which is billed as long-range and thus is more likely to have the car's occupants (and other queued cars) waiting for a mid-journey charge to complete, versus a short-range car where owners are more likely to charge overnight or during a work shift.
- littlecranky67 7y agoOn a side note: German government just announced tax incentives for business-registered EVs, but only for those with a sales price less than 40.000€ [0]. This seems like a tailored offer to exclude the Tesla Model 3 in favour of Volkswagens ID.3. This is a big deal as 2/3s of all newly registered cars are registered by businesses [1] (German). [0]: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-higher-ev-incentives-raise-fuel-prices-reduce-co2-emissions https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-higher-... [1]: https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-zwei-drittel-der-deutschen-firmenwagen-sind-dieselfahrzeuge/ https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-zw...
- rasz 7y agoSimilarly in Poland, current proposed plan is 30% value of a car, but with absolute max price limit of ... ~28K Euro, meaning only Opel Corsa-E qualifies. Why?!?
- bigYahnz 7y agoUgly car that looks more like a Honda Fit than a Golf.
- Xixi 7y agoAn article comparing the cost of ownership of Volkswagen ID.3 vs. Volkswagen Golf: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/19/volkswagen-id-3-vs-volkswagen-golf-5-year-cost-of-ownership-comparison/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/19/volkswagen-id-3-vs-volk... Cost of gas and electricity are based, if I understand correctly, on German prices.
- pwagland 7y agoNote that at least part of the lower TCO is due to the fact that they expect the id.3 to retain 43% of value, and the normal golf to retain 33% of value. Setting these to equal eliminates any advantage, either way, the 5 year cost difference is largely a wash out. That different cars retain value differently isn't intrinsically a problem, however assuming a high resale value for an unknown car feels like stacking the deck. To be fair, the author does give a justification for this difference, it's up to you if you agree with it.
- ajsnigrutin 7y agoConsidering how much a used golf with a lowered odometer costs in the balkans (imported from germany), that's quite a weird theory.
- ganzuul 7y agoRegarding long-term value, a bus company here chose to order electric buses in part because they suspect that in the lifetime of a bus, diesel engines could be banned in cities.
- clouddrover 7y agoThat's starting to happen now in Paris: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-paris-pollution/greater-paris-to-ban-old-diesel-cars-from-summer-2019-idUKKCN1NH2BE https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-paris-pollution/gre...
- jwr 7y agoEuropean here, trying to actually buy the thing. You can't. The first reservations will be fulfilled in the middle of 2020, but those will only be the mid-sized battery versions. If you want the version with a larger battery, there is no firm ship date, but it is expected in 2021. What I find somewhat amusing is that for the past months we've been bombarded by a huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist :-)
- r00fus 7y agoIf you want an EV now, buy a Tesla/Leaf/Zoe. That's all I'm hearing from VW. I'm thrilled with my Focus EV (cause Model3 wasn't available when I bought it). I have a basket of features I'd like on my next EV that I don't have now, but it's way better than waiting for the "best" to show up.
- carlmr 7y agoMaybe someone wants to buy an EV now but they have no problem waiting for a year.
- izacus 7y agoThat pretty much sounds like a Tesla 3 marketing campaign? :D There was a looong wait for those to start shipping too.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- wazoox 7y agoThere are already very good Korean-made electric cars for sale at roughly the same price. You don't have to wait.
- cat199 7y agoAre there korean made vw ID.3's for sale at roughly the same price? because that is what this person is actually talking about waiting for..
- vincent-toups 7y agoFor the masses? My family is doing fairly well for people in my generation and I've never ever briefly considered buying a car for more than 10k.
- bryanlarsen 7y agoAnd in a few years time, used ID.3's will be available for under 10K.
- pwagland 7y agoProbably more than a "few" I think that you will be looking at 5-7 for the cars to fall to under a third of new value. Although that depends on your definition of "a few"* I guess. * https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/05/how-much-is-a-few.html https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/05/how-much-is-a-few...
- davidwren 7y agoConventional wisdom seems to be that at best electric cars will depreciate at the same rate as ICEs or at worst their values will fall off a cliff, the reality is very different, at least in the short run * obviously this will change as production of newer cars ramps up. * https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on-electric-vehicle-depreciation/ https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on...
- anentropic 7y agoThe thing I'm curious about is how they will age I would guess the mechanical components, motors etc will potentially be more reliable than ICE But I worry about the batteries, if my laptop is anything to go by it seems like they will eventually die and will be expensive to replace
- bluGill 7y agoToday's ICEs are very reliable and generally outlast the car body - assuming your follow the maintenance schedule. All the wear on the body will be the same: pot holes, salt, accidents... Motors won't have nearly as much maintenance (you still need to lube bearings), but the car will die based not on the method of motor power in most cases even if you don't do the maintenance. Batteries are a worry. Price has come down, but used electric cars are very cheap compared to the ICE cars because of this very reason. Until the market figures out how to replace the batteries at scale, and then buyers figure out how to account for the battery this will not change.
- nrjames 7y agoAll looks good, but the charging rate seems really slow.
- anesmike 7y agoSeems that Tesla has a big advantage over other electric car manufactures because of their super charging stations.
- Lendal 7y agoIs there any technical reason for limiting the charge rate unless you pay more? I see this is becoming common now. Even Tesla does it. I'd be willing to settle for the smaller battery as long as charging it was at the same higher rate. Sure, charging sessions are more frequent during long trips, but if you're charging a smaller battery at the same rate then the charging sessions are shorter. So it seems like they're just trying to get more money out of you by limiting the charging rate of the low-end cars.
- magicalhippo 7y agoThe charging rate is related to how many cells the battery pack consists of. Each cell can take a certain charging current, so more cells = higher total current. If they implement the longer range by adding more cells (which I assume they do), then that's your technical reason. Of course, could also just be a way to get more money...
- Tempest1981 7y agoI thought heat was also a factor. If the batteries are liquid-cooled, you can keep them cooler and charge them faster. Is this true? Or do most manufactures/models have battery cooling systems?
- sowbug 7y agoEven Tesla does it. This was last true in 2016, when you could add a dual-charger option to your S or X to increase non-Supercharger charging from 48 amps to 72 amps (dual != double because of battery limitations). Would you mind citing your source?
- everdrive 7y agoI'm really excited for more viable electric vehicles. But, the claim that this is the first car for the masses when it's simply 2-3k (~33k to ~35k in USD) cheaper than a Tesla model 3 is discouraging. That said, I do understand that the total cost of ownership does catch up if you keep the car long enough. I would just love to see something in the 20s, or even lower. (Further, I'm very sympathetic to the argument that reduced carbon is more important than my personal financial expense.) [edit] Thanks for all the clarification. I had no idea about VAT.
- zaroth 7y agoAnd that’s for a 205mi range (that will be WLTP not EPA so real world will be ~15% lower) on a 45kWh battery back that can only charge at 50kW. Top speed is 99mph, 0-60 is unannounced. The higher priced versions can charge up to 100kW. But frankly, the base model specs seem abysmal?
- close04 7y ago> 0-60 is unannounced Anybody looking for a mid-range Golf/ID.3 type car (excluding top models like GTI/R/etc.) cares very little about 0-100Km/h times. In the same vein they also didn't announce the Nürburgring lap times. Edit. Also based on the numbers Tesla publishes for the same car the difference between WLTP and EPA is less that 7%. Is it expected that in some cases it varies up to 15%?
- zaroth 7y ago254 vs 240mi for SR+ but 348 vs 310mi for the LR.
- close04 7y agoTesla M3 SR+ is advertised as 240mi (386Km) EPA in the US vs. 409Km WLTP in the EU, a 6% difference. The LR is 310mi (~500Km) EPA vs. 560Km WLTP, a 12% difference. Assuming the tests are designed in such a way that for some reason they start to diverge massively the longer the range (6% at 240mi but 12% at 310mi) then for an ID.3 with a 210mi range there is no reason at this point to assume 15% difference but rather under 10%. Given that you obviously know the numbers your extrapolation, while it may turn out to be true, seems more bad faith than reasonable assumption at this point.
- bryanlarsen 7y agoIt's interesting to compare this car against the Honda e, which looks like an awesome little car. However, they've priced it about €7,000 more than the id.3 which is probably the reason it's getting comparably little buzz.
- codeulike 7y agoBut the Honda-e has less range, right? Over here it says the Honda-e has about 125 miles of range, putting it on par with a 2016 Leaf. https://ev-database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e https://ev-database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e
- iagovar 7y agoI just discovered this SEAT: https://ev-database.uk/car/1191/SEAT-Mii-Electric https://ev-database.uk/car/1191/SEAT-Mii-Electric This is something I can buy.
- codeulike 7y agoHey thats a pretty good price. Built on the same platform as the ID3 apparently. 125 miles range is OK for 99% of the time. Long journeys then take a bit of planning but its very do-able.
- konschubert 7y agoNo, it's the same care as the VW e-up!, which is not yet based on the new MEB platform.
- tonyedgecombe 7y agoI don’t think it is, this is based on a new platform that replaces the old e-up (which was rather mediocre).
- codeulike 7y agoCan someone summarise the prices for the different battery sizes? - because this article just dances all over the place.
- a012 7y agoVW only announce the price of base model which is about EUR30k, no prices of two upper models yet.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- herodotus 7y ago> The central focus is a new 10-inch touchscreen that sits in the middle of the ID.3’s dashboard. But VW has also opted to rely on touch-sensitive buttons throughout the cabin. In fact, the only things that are controlled through physical buttons, VW says, are the windows and the hazard lights. I don't understand why big touch screens in cars are seen as a step forward. To me, they raise safety issues, and they lack the elegant and simple ergonomics of earlier cars. By definition, you have to look at a touch screen to use it. In older cars, you might have to glance at the speedometer, and you can do that without even moving your neck. The huge screen is the number 1 reason I would not buy a Tesla.
- drcongo 7y agoA thousand times this. I recently bought a Toyota Vellfire which has a touch screen ICE and I find that annoying enough on its own, I'd _hate_ to have to fiddle around on a screen to operate other car functionality.
- taf2 7y agoIMO the difference here is like comparing early versions of blackberry around 2008 that tried to compete with the iPhone. They were really bad too...
- vitaflo 7y agoYou also can't use them with gloves on, and at least where I live, I'm always wearing gloves in the winter.
- enragedcacti 7y agoSome companies (at least some Hondas from personal experience) use electrostatic screens that fix that problem. Resistive also works but they are SOOO mushy and scratchable.
- taf2 7y agoYou can buy touch screen friendly gloves... I always keep a pair in my car... nice thing about an electric car is you pre-heat without burning gas and being generally evil to the environment:)
- thowthisaway 7y agoAs much as I can welcome more options for EVs, I just can't trust VW with electronics and software. It's catch-22, traditional automakers sucks at electronics and software, but tesla sucks at making cars.
- jmpman 7y agoI just had my Tesla Model 3 serviced. A rear window needed replacing due to a rock chip. Mobile service came out, two bolts to remove the door panel, two for the glass. He was done in 20min. Whatever they’re designing for, it was obvious that Tesla is 1000x better than GM when it comes to rear windows. I recently replaced the rear window regulators on a GM Pickup. What a nightmare compared to the Tesla. They might suck short term, but their designs for trivial things like windows are amazing.
- craig1f 7y agoThis is what, in marketing, is called "positioning". VW is trying to "position" their car as the default electric car, or at least, the only viable alternative to Tesla. If you don't set your own position, then your competitors will set your position for you. Now it's up to Tesla (or whoever else) to re-position VW, without looking nasty doing it. "The ID.3 is good choice if you can't afford the extra $3k for a Tesla. But only a Tesla has all the features you need, and will keep your family alive in an impact". You don't say "Tesla good, ID.3 bad". This makes you sound nasty. You say "ID.3 good if <scenario that doesn't apply to customers>, but Tesla better if <scenario that applies to customers>" It's all marketing nonsense at this point until the car exists.