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I like to imagine the reaction if it happened here. Imagine that, say, China blew up 30 Americans in the US with a missile. And their reaction was, “sorry, my

I like to imagine the reaction if it happened here. Imagine that, say, China blew up 30 Americans in the US with a missile. And their reaction was, “sorry, my bad, I thought they were terrorists.” Can you imagine the response? I think we’d have a nuclear war before the end of the day.

rayiner 7y ago
Of course. And? The implications of that hypothetical are surprising only to a very few with out of mainstream belief systems. Of course it’s worse when it happens to us than when it happens to someone else. The point hardly bears mentioning.
- mikeash 7y ago
  “This was a horrible accident, but you have to realize there are probably some very bad people they intended to target and the US doesn't blow up random Afghan farmers for fun and games.” We wouldn’t accept this excuse in my hypothetical, so we shouldn’t accept this excuse when we’re the ones murdering dozens of innocents.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    We wouldn’t accept the excuse because what China would be fighting for in your hypothetical would be bad, while what we’re fighting for is good. You can’t just transpose the hypothetical to suggest hypocrisy because there is none.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      I didn’t say what China was fighting for. Why are you so sure it’s bad?
      - rayiner 7y ago
        Because they’re a communist regime?
        mikeash 7y ago
        So anything they fight for must be bad no matter what it is? Even if they’re hunting down ISIS and al Qaeda members just like we are?
        rayiner 7y ago
        I assumed your hypothetical was framed in terms of the existing situation and interests. That it wasn’t along the lines of: “the US government has fallen to ISIS and cannot police its own territory; China accidentally kills some US civilians while bombing extremists.” If that was your hypothetical, then I think you’d be surprised how few Americans would be outraged. I’m pretty sure it’d make for a decent movie.
        mikeash 7y ago
        Sure, it’s in terms of the existing situation. Why can’t there be an ISIS cell in the US right now, or at least why can’t the Chinese think there is one?
        likpok 7y ago
        Because the US government is a) strong and b) doesn't think there's one. Neither of those is true of Afghanistan. The Taliban is quite capable of at least holding on, and the non-Taliban Afghani government isn't opposed to US support. As evidence of this, President Ghani's reaction was to promise check and balances to reduce casualties, not kick the US out of the country.
        mikeash 7y ago
        So it’s nothing about the morality of killing dozens of innocents. It’s just might makes right?
mikejb 7y ago
You don't even have to go that far - imagine China flying combat drones over US territory. The US is a military power house, and they use and abuse this power to maintain their ways of life, no matter the costs to others.
vonseel 7y ago
Americans don't behead innocent people in the streets and don't relentlessly kill people just because they don't share the same religious or political beliefs. Your comparison is absurd, ignoring the politics of China launching a missile at American soil. The US War in Afghanistan is 17 years old. There were two suicide bombings just three days ago, each killing over 20 people. Imagine a group of people who want to kill you because of where you were born. Who want to throw you off a building because you're homosexual. When America kills terrorists, is it equally as bad as when terrorists bomb Americans or Europeans? Is killing in order to police the same as killing out of deep, radical beliefs (and hate)?
- mikeash 7y ago
  Why is my comparison absurd? Let’s say that the Chinese drone operators thought they were targeting an ISIS cell. (This is, in fact, what I had in mind.) Anyway, I don’t have to imagine. There are, in fact, lots of people in this country who want to kill people for having the wrong birthplace or sexual orientation. One of them massacred twenty people just a few weeks ago.
oefrha 7y ago
Recall that time when the U.S. blew up a Chinese embassy. The excuse was "sorry, our bad, we were using an outdated map."

rayiner 7y ago

Of course. And? The implications of that hypothetical are surprising only to a very few with out of mainstream belief systems. Of course it’s worse when it happens to us than when it happens to someone else. The point hardly bears mentioning.

mikeash 7y ago
“This was a horrible accident, but you have to realize there are probably some very bad people they intended to target and the US doesn't blow up random Afghan farmers for fun and games.” We wouldn’t accept this excuse in my hypothetical, so we shouldn’t accept this excuse when we’re the ones murdering dozens of innocents.
- rayiner 7y ago
  We wouldn’t accept the excuse because what China would be fighting for in your hypothetical would be bad, while what we’re fighting for is good. You can’t just transpose the hypothetical to suggest hypocrisy because there is none.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I didn’t say what China was fighting for. Why are you so sure it’s bad?
    - rayiner 7y ago
      Because they’re a communist regime?
      - mikeash 7y ago
        So anything they fight for must be bad no matter what it is? Even if they’re hunting down ISIS and al Qaeda members just like we are?
        rayiner 7y ago
        I assumed your hypothetical was framed in terms of the existing situation and interests. That it wasn’t along the lines of: “the US government has fallen to ISIS and cannot police its own territory; China accidentally kills some US civilians while bombing extremists.” If that was your hypothetical, then I think you’d be surprised how few Americans would be outraged. I’m pretty sure it’d make for a decent movie.
        mikeash 7y ago
        Sure, it’s in terms of the existing situation. Why can’t there be an ISIS cell in the US right now, or at least why can’t the Chinese think there is one?
        likpok 7y ago
        Because the US government is a) strong and b) doesn't think there's one. Neither of those is true of Afghanistan. The Taliban is quite capable of at least holding on, and the non-Taliban Afghani government isn't opposed to US support. As evidence of this, President Ghani's reaction was to promise check and balances to reduce casualties, not kick the US out of the country.
        mikeash 7y ago
        So it’s nothing about the morality of killing dozens of innocents. It’s just might makes right?

mikejb 7y ago

You don't even have to go that far - imagine China flying combat drones over US territory. The US is a military power house, and they use and abuse this power to maintain their ways of life, no matter the costs to others.

vonseel 7y ago

Americans don't behead innocent people in the streets and don't relentlessly kill people just because they don't share the same religious or political beliefs. Your comparison is absurd, ignoring the politics of China launching a missile at American soil. The US War in Afghanistan is 17 years old. There were two suicide bombings just three days ago, each killing over 20 people. Imagine a group of people who want to kill you because of where you were born. Who want to throw you off a building because you're homosexual. When America kills terrorists, is it equally as bad as when terrorists bomb Americans or Europeans? Is killing in order to police the same as killing out of deep, radical beliefs (and hate)?

mikeash 7y ago
Why is my comparison absurd? Let’s say that the Chinese drone operators thought they were targeting an ISIS cell. (This is, in fact, what I had in mind.) Anyway, I don’t have to imagine. There are, in fact, lots of people in this country who want to kill people for having the wrong birthplace or sexual orientation. One of them massacred twenty people just a few weeks ago.

oefrha 7y ago

Recall that time when the U.S. blew up a Chinese embassy. The excuse was "sorry, our bad, we were using an outdated map."