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I suspect using the median net assets instead of the average would lead to vastly different results.
by anxrn 7y ago
I suspect using the median net assets instead of the average would lead to vastly different results.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- hartator 7y agoActually the 20% poorest in the US has it better than the average EU middle class. Ref: https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe//amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20...
- defertoreptar 7y agoI like how they calculated consumption, rather than income or net wealth. That's a more honest way of comparing poverty in different countries.
- CobrastanJorji 7y agoIs consumption defined as spending, though? If an apple costs $1 in the US but 25 cents in Europe, and a poor person in each place is provided a free apple by the government, did the poor person in the US have 4 times the consumption?
- why_only_15 7y agoThe way you adjust for the first effect is to adjust by Purchasing Power Parity, which they did.
- rndgermandude 7y agoWell, you try to adjust by Purchasing Power Parity. That works well for things where you can directly compare, like the price of an apple. However, it doesn't work so well for other goods and services, e.g. single payer health care vs health care costs in the US, because at best you're comparing apples to oranges. On top of that, it does not account for things you may need in one nation but not in another. E.g. cars spring to mind. In the US you need a car in most places even the bigger cities, to get to work for example. In a lot of places in the EU you don't.
- gridlockd 7y agoHaving a car and being able to drive it around is a form of wealth. Cars in the US are also much more affordable. The "I don't need it" argument only goes so far. You can't go shop a lot of groceries. You can't transport bigger items. You can't go on a road trip. You travel according to whatever public transport affords you. I might just as well say "I don't need it" in regards to healthcare. You don't need it until you do, but then you can't afford it.
- Reason077 7y agoI'm not sure it's an entirely fair way to define poverty. In many parts of Europe you can have a relatively high standard of living without consuming (or even owning) all that much. For example, you can have a high standard of living without owning a car (and all the 'consumption' that goes along with that), in cities that have good public transport, and a good infrastructure/environment for walking and cycling. In much of the US, that's difficult or impossible.
- rayiner 7y agoBut if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment. People in New York City don’t consume less because they don’t own a car—they spend more money eating out, etc. And Europeans are hardly ascetics. It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago> It’s fair to assume that in both places, if people had more means to consume they would. Not the parent commenter but why do you think they would if they could? Consumption habits across borders aren't as obvious to me because of advertising, culture, etc.
- rayiner 7y agoConsumption habits don’t vary that much in the developed world. The household savings rate is 5-10% in most countries, with the US being lower than famously frugal Germany, but higher than Italy or Spain: https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-household-saving-rates https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/916lqg-house.... (Switzerland and Luxembourg being heavily financialized countries seem to be outliers.)
- Reason077 7y ago> "But if consumption capacity was equal in Europe, that consumption would shift to something else, such as food and entertainment." Yes. But my point is that not all consumption can be considered equal in terms of the wellbeing and quality of life that it provides. For example, if I was spending $5000 per year on car payments and fuel for my commute to work, that's a lot of 'consumption'. But it isn't something that makes me happy or feel fulfilled. On the other hand, suppose I live in a city where I can walk, cycle, or ride a tram to work. My quality of life might be equal or better - yet I'm consuming $5000 less.
- chillacy 7y agoThis doesn't seem to account for debt, does anyone have stats on debt in Europe?
- mc32 7y agoThat’s a good point. I’d like to see that as part of the comparison as well.
- pkaye 7y agoHow about this. Household debt to disposable income. US seems to be in the middle. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm
- monocasa 7y agoThat's again average, not median.
- why_only_15 7y agoWhat does this mean? They talk about consumption of goods and services and while taking the debt might be included, the paying of the debt won't be.
- foota 7y agoWould be interested in looking at two things: * How we do in terms of relative consumption along the percentiles, since that reveals how well we distribute consumption among working people. I believe that by moving savings into consumption we increase aggregate welfare, as spending by the people that receive the cash injection will end up generating more consumption than there would have otherwise been. However, I suspect that the current level of income inequality is also what's preventing massive inflation from occurring so it's something of a wash. * As well as how our even lower percentiles compare to other economically developed countries. 5% of America is something like 15 million people, or ~two Washington State's * Lastly, it might be interesting to look at what people have to do to earn the consumption they get at the 20th percentile. A lot of people in America are out their working 80 hours in minimum wage jobs to do that. As a soap box: imo the biggest issues with American socioeconomics today are more about mobility and safety nets than about how much the poorest can absolutely afford. Like, do we do a good job of enabling people to improve their situation and do we do a good job of helping people stay there once they have made it through e.g., helping with substance abuse problems, mental health, and unexpected debt burdens, among other things.
- soperj 7y agoAnd you still have plenty of homesless and destitute. Pretty sad that you can't look after the most vunerable.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes
- skybrian 7y agoI mean, it's not like they were wrong about that. I don't know what to conclude from this other than most of history is terrible and the present often isn't so great either. Until we live in a utopia, there will be no shortage of targets for whataboutism.
- EpicEng 7y agoThe point is that it's nothing but a deflection tactic, and I don't believe the people doing the lynching were typically the same people concerned about human rights abuses in the USSR. It's an oversimplification used to prevent discussion about real problems.
- skissane 7y agoI think there is a valid point to it – there is a certain degree of hypocrisy in criticising other country's human rights problems when you aren't doing enough to resolve your own country's human rights problems. Calling it "Whataboutism" seems to excuse that hypocrisy rather than giving it the condemnation it deserves.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
- thatfrenchguy 7y agoThe second decile in the US had in 2017 a wealth of $4798 (-962 for the first decile), while in France in 2015 the second decile had E12900, E4300 for the first decile. And, you know, access to health care :-)
- dillonmckay 7y agoand affordable highspeed internet.
- rayiner 7y agoFrance has much slower internet on average than the US: https://www.akamai.com/de/de/multimedia/documents/state-of-the-internet/q1-2017-state-of-the-internet-connectivity-report.pdf https://www.akamai.com/de/de/multimedia/documents/state-of-t... It’s almost as if it’s part of a pattern, where the top 75% in the US do better than France, while the stronger French safety net is better for the bottom 25%.
- Cyph0n 7y agoHow did you get from "slower internet" to "there is a pattern"? If you scroll two comments up, you'll see the most crucial difference: free healthcare. Healthcare-related expenses can bankrupt an entire family in the US, even with great health insurance... Then there is free education, but let's leave that aside for now.
- tdhoot 7y agoThe lowest income people in the US also qualify for free healthcare through Medicaid. It covers ~20% of the US population (that number also includes those with disabilities).
- negrit 7y agoEveryone qualify for healthcare in France, you don't have to take part of a pissing contest about who is the poorest...
- anigbrowl 7y agoCongratulations, you found a libertarian blog to validate whatever viewpoint you needed support for.
- illuminati1911 7y agoDo you have an argument against the information and details provided by the article or nothing but bitterness as it seem.
- anigbrowl 7y agoI refuse to make the effort to refute bad faith articles any more.
- Nicksil 7y agoI've no opinion on this source, but here's the actual, non-Google/AMP URL: https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/ https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-ric...
- wavefunction 7y agoTexas has literal shanty towns with 100,000 American citizens living there so I think this is a situation where statistics (or the ones presented) are highly inaccurate or deeply mischaracterized: https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+colonias&sxsrf=ACYBGNTcoIGEBe9UqYRXYylpiE8oq-tdaQ:1568941989699&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCh-CvnN7kAhWwna0KHdkbCEsQ_AUIEigB&biw=1920&bih=958 https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+colonias&sxsrf=ACYBGNT...
- rayiner 7y agoThe Texas colonias are inhabited by people who crossed into the US from Mexico. There are many Americans citizens there because everyone born in the US is automatically a citizen. But their standard of living says nothing about the accuracy of the statistics addressing the standard of living at the 20th percentile. (That’s 60 million people from the bottom.) That’s not to say we shouldn’t “do something” about their living condition, just that your post is a non-sequitor. When Sweden accepted hundreds of thousands of refugees, the median income of the country almost certainly went down. But that doesn’t mean everyone became poorer.
- wavefunction 7y agoThe post I am replying to claims that the "20% poorest" in the US have it better than middle-class Europeans which is such a ludicrous claim as to require posts like mine to provide the context of reality. To your stuff about Sweden and refugees, income and wealth are related but separate concepts.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- wavefunction 7y agoI am replying to the post and you're off somewhere else faltering in your efforts. Even at the 20th percentile ain't no Americans better off than middle class Europeans unless you operate under a perverse and objectively dishonest analysis structured to favor your own views. CanShootGuns+500 AccessToDecentHealthCareThatWon'tBankruptYourFamily+15
- rndgermandude 7y agoThat uses consumption data for 2010, coinciding with the year the EU financial crisis really hit and dominated the news, while the financial crisis in the US was already in downswing.
- AstralStorm 7y agoYes, I've checked data for 2017 and USA does not look too rosy anymore, matching most of western EU.
- rndgermandude 7y agoGiven that the US unemployment rate has been constatnly trending down since 2010, I guess the lack of improvement or even worsening of consumption in the same time frame say something...
- thefounder 7y agoThe source of this claim is highly questionable
- swebs 7y agoHow so?
- username90 7y agoThe world bank says that we shouldn't compare consumption since it is calculated differently in different countries: "Because of the diversity of methods and instruments used by the surveys, comparability across countries is limited." http://datatopics.worldbank.org/consumption/detail http://datatopics.worldbank.org/consumption/detail I wouldn't be surprised if the American value was grossly inflated by things like expensive healthcare and education, while the study in for example Sweden possibly didn't even count free healthcare visits, free college education, free school meals for everyone, free public transit for kids or free kindergarten as household consumption.
- mseidl 7y agoMaybe in pure dollar amount. As a German that lived in the US for a long enough time, I'd rather be poor in the Germany than in the US. As least I have good worker rights, healthcare, and all the other benefits.
- mantoto 7y agoAre we reading the same? "The high consumption of America’s “poor” doesn’t mean they live better than average people in the nations they outpace, like Spain, Denmark, Japan, Greece, and New Zealand. "
- asjw 7y agoSwitzerland is not EU EU has absorbed many eastern countries that where under USSR influence
- asdff 7y agoOnly in the U.S. could you have a $14 minimum wage and 90k in one city alone living on the street because rents are egregious.
- ptah 7y ago> high consumption of America’s “poor” this is actually a huge negative and flips the result on it's head if you look at it from a climate change perspective. EDIT: if they have to consume so much more, surely they are not having it better
- dagw 7y agoThe article you link to literally claims the opposite: "The high consumption of America’s “poor” doesn’t mean they live better than average people in the nations they outpace"
- PunchTornado 7y agoThat's such a bs article: The World Bank’s “preferred” indicator of material well-being is "consumption" of goods and services. This is due to “practical reasons of reliability and because consumption is thought to better capture long-run welfare levels than current income.” So all it says it that the poor from US consume more than middle class in Europe. Of course, being to the US and seeing how they replace things disregarding the environment I'm not surprised by that conclusion. I'm earning six figures in London and I'm consuming a lot less than the poorest in US and try to reduce it as a maximum so my carbon footprint is small. When I went to France I saw so many people bringing their own containers to the supermarket which was great because it reduces consumption.
- sanxiyn 7y agoYou don't need to suspect. Unlike this news, Global Wealth Report itself is a serious undertaking so it computes both median and average ranking. USA is #1 in average and #13 in median. Switzerland is #2 in average and #1 in median.
- pooya13 7y agoIs that in PPP?
- chillacy 7y agoIncome inequality has only been increasing over time in the US, and GDP climbs while deaths of despair (drug overdoses, suicides) go up and life expectancy goes down.
- glup 7y agoFYI median per capita wealth figures are listed on the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe..., but the amounts are somewhat different (I posted a separate question about why)
- microcolonel 7y agoGod only knows what we Americans (and Canadians, for that matter) are doing with our disposable income, but the median Schweizer, Norwegian, American, Australian, or Canadian is doing pretty great. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c... P.S: Be wary of comparisons of household anything, especially over time. Household size has changed dramatically over the recent decades.
- vannevar 7y agoYou would be correct, the US lags far, far behind in median wealth, behind countries like Korea and Spain. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/australia-tops-median-wealth-per-adult-list/10518082 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/australia-tops-median...
- adventured 7y agoAnd the US ranks ahead of both Germany and Sweden in median household net wealth. Those two are almost universally held up as extreme achievers on quality of life and both have notoriously good economies.
- vannevar 7y agoTrue. It's interesting to note that the ratio of the median to the mean for Germany is similar to the US, where France and other high-medians have smaller ratios. Why is wealth more naturally distributed in France, but less so in Germany and the US?
- dagw 7y agoI don't know about Germany, but Sweden has one of the highest private debt levels in the 'western' world. That seriously drags down the net wealth numbers. Also the whole point of the "Swedish model" argument is that a high net wealth shouldn't be a requirement for a high quality of life.
- nicky19890202 7y agoThis is the truth
- persephonee 7y agoThe distribution of wealth is as unequal, as for a hundred years. A new guilded age has arrived. Average distribution of 'placewealthorincomemeasurehere' is irrelevant.