19 ms·

Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests

181 points by goodcanadian 7y ago

hellofunk 7y ago
> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside my home or office.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at? Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or something?" Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38 Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."
  - draw_down 7y ago
    Normally yes, but you have to understand Cuba is full of evil, evil communists. So it couldn’t possibly be something so simple, it must be one of their wily communist plots.
  - agapon 7y ago
    But, did the spraying start short time before the symptoms appeared? Or has it been going on for a long while? In the latter case, it's not strange that they didn't make a connection initially, because "nothing changed".
  - scohesc 7y ago
    Maybe the spraying happened at night when everyone was out of the office so nobody was none the wiser?
zug_zug 7y ago
tl; dr: - Neurological studies show actual damage to the same region of the brain for these diplomats - Pesticides (organophosphates) are put out as a candidate theory. - Research shows people whose residences were sprayed MORE with pesticide had greater symptoms, adding strong evidence - Mass Hysteria is dismissed as a theory, as the group of people experiencing it is highly vetted and because the diagnosis is only applicable when no underlying cause is present. In this case, the actual measurement of the brain show there is damage, ruling out the theory.
- wyldfire 7y ago
  > The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. This suggests that in fact it was the US government (following the host government's lead) that introduced the toxin into their environment. If so, it seems like the Cubans may be owed an apology. But did the embassy use stronger concentration than Cuba? Or a different agent? Are any local Havanans experiencing these symptoms?
  - alexandercrohde 7y ago
    The article answers this
    - wyldfire 7y ago
      Specifically this section I suppose: > The symptoms experienced by the victims — headaches, hearing loss, cognitive problems, loss of balance, etc. — are frequently found in the general population, these scientists argued, and can be attributed to many causes.
      - zkms 7y ago
        also page 35 mentions that there's genetic factors (PON1 gene) that affect organophosphate susceptibilities
PentiumBug 7y ago
(Cuban here.) I find this result very interesting, really, as we're exposed to these chemicals in varying degrees and frequency. I personally live in a epidemiological controlled/safe (-ish) area of Havana, so my exposure is very limited. However, I do know that some other areas are way more affected by vectors since they are less urbanized and with more population density. In those cases the authorities are more aggressive in the use of mass fumigation, particularly during the summer and autumn; but still I don't think that such elevated frequency produces the effects shown in the article, for the general population, that is. It is true that we're particularly vulnerable to zika, chikungunya, yellow fever, and dengue fever (especially in 2016); and what I can easily imagine (and conjecture) is that diplomatic personnel were overly (and rightly) concerned, and liberally applied these products with more zeal than necessary. Thus, increased their exposition to these chemicals.
- goodcanadian 7y ago
  They were apparently spraying INSIDE the offices. I'm not particularly concerned about pesticides in general, but I would NEVER use them indoors. Also, the diplomatic buildings are likely well sealed and air conditioned while I suspect local buildings use more natural cooling (open windows and the breeze) and are thus better ventilated.
throwaway66920 7y ago
Maybe we would use less pesticides if we just called them neurotoxins.
- fritzw 7y ago
  Fun story... VX nerve agent was discovered and originally introduced as a pesticide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
  - vilhelm_s 7y ago
    Not exactly VX, but Amiton (also known as Tetram or VG). It's about one tenth as toxic as VX, and similar in toxicity as sarin. In 1975 the Iraqi ministry of agriculture negotiated with a U.S. company, Pfaudler, for a contract to build a pesticide production plant. The deal eventually fell through because Pfaudler did not understand why the Iraqis insisted on manufacturing Amiton instead of some safer alternative.
- minikites 7y ago
  The dose makes the poison, caffeine is a pesticide.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Caffeine and nicotine are pesticides that humans have metabolic pathways to deal with. Dogs, for instance, can't handle theobromine.
    - cwkoss 7y ago
      tobacco 'tea' is a very effective pesticide, and is pretty easily removed by water. Great in dry areas, less so in rainy ones.
      - hinkley 7y ago
        PSA for anyone reading this is thinking "I should try that." Be very, deadly careful not to get it on your skin. You can hit LD50 pretty quickly by dousing yourself in liquid stimulants.
aug_aug 7y ago
Possibly related tidbit - I used to roll my own cigarettes when working in the field as a geologist, left a pack of papers under the seat of my truck which had no carpeting, spilled 100% DEET on the floor, DEET absorbed into pack of papers. Months later found those same papers (what luck!) and rolled a cigarette without thinking about it, minutes later I was asking my now wife if she "could hear the helicopter sounds!!?" and thought I was losing my mind. I put it all together weeks later when I remembered the DEET spill from several months earlier. Pesticides/insecticides, in my experience at least, can induce those symptoms, lol - maybe the mosquito spraying was a little heavy by the hotel? And now I hope I don't have brain damage, thanks internet.
- skim_milk 7y ago
  When my father was a child, he would bike behind the trucks that sprayed DDT all over the neighborhood because the DDT mist kept him cool. I hope you'll be fine, because people have done much worse!
  - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
    Omg I hope your dad is alright?
    - joecool1029 7y ago
      As scary sounding as the anecdote was, DDT is known for relatively low human (and mammal) toxicity. They did absolutely insane human studies with it in the 1950's, and dosages of up to 380mg/kg were tolerable. There was also no evidence that it produced cancer at commonly exposed dosages: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/ddt-ext.html http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicro... < some more info here.
  - t1lthesky 7y ago
    Ha I remember doing the same thing when I was ~6 years old in South Korea. There would be these trucks that went around spraying mosquito killing fog in the apartment complexes and all the little kids from the neighborhood would run behind them. Well now I'm 30 and so far things seem to be ok! Fingers crossed
cat199 7y ago
Interesting findings, but how do we blame the Russians for this? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-suspect-russia-mystery-attacks-diplomats-cuba-china-n908141 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-sus... " The suspicion that Russia is likely behind the alleged attacks is backed up by evidence from communications intercepts, known in the spy world as signals intelligence, amassed during a lengthy and ongoing investigation involving the FBI, the CIA and other U.S. agencies. The officials declined to elaborate on the nature of the intelligence. "
- codezero 7y ago
  At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequency at diplomatic residences and the embassy. Edit: a few replies here are really more thoughtful than my comment. I recommend reading them :)
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    Well, on the one hand, "they" did spray more frequently at diplomatic residences. On the other hand, unless things have changed considerably since my day, "they", would almost certainly be American diplomatic services. That's who would direct the spraying operations at those residences, not the Cubans. The Cubans would have no involvement with those spraying operations, however, you would think Cubans would still spray the neighborhood just as they would any other neighborhood. That said, again, the problem was likely us spraying our diplomats' homes and offices multiple times more because, to our minds, the Cuban spraying was not enough.
    - codezero 7y ago
      Ah yes. Great point.
  - 7y ago
rb808 7y ago
I preferred the top-secret Russian microwave neuro-weapon headlines. :)
empath75 7y ago
This seems completely plausible to me and I hope it puts the absurd "sonic weapon" theory to bed. Combination of stress, genuine brain damage from excessive pesticide fumigation, and a little bit of mass hysteria.
- sohkamyung 7y ago
  For reference, the "sonic weapon" may have been very loud crickets [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-cuba-crickets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-cuba...
aaron695 7y ago
More lies on top of lies. IF this is effecting all of Cuba then this is exactly fucking hysteria. It's not Russian spies, it's not magic sonic weapons that sound like crickets but for some reason can't be crickets! We seriously had recordings of crickets which the world knows what they sound like yet the Emperor still had no clothes. It's hysteria. On top of that the brains studies so far have been disproven. And how did it affect the diplomats in China and other countries? Seriously the whole mystical city of Havana has brain damage but only the North Americans have found out? Banging my head on a wall reading these dumb stories is the only brain damage here. He even says they are a 'very strong group' EXACTLY were you expect hysteria.
narrator 7y ago
Reminds me of all the people mysteriously dying in the Dominican Republic[1]. The best I could figure out from reading about it was that illegal pesticides were being used in hotels to eradicate bed bugs and they ended up getting on bottles of stuff in the minibar and in the food and randomly killing or making people extremely sick all over the country and the resort chains covered it up. [1]https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-results-in-rash-of-dominican-republic-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-resu...
- zkms 7y ago
  also reminiscent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths
jlpom 7y ago
I find this hypothesis slithly more plausible than a pulsed radiofrequency/microwaves attack where the way this could alter white matter seems unclear, but especially given a precedent [0] both are good candidates. This is compatible in my view to a russian interference in the midst of warming relations between Cuba and the US/Canada. The diplomats seems ro be the only members of the embassy to be affected and the russians know how to not leave their footprint when they don't want to (e.g. not Novitchok or Polonium). [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal
hoseja 7y ago
It was just a gas leak! Nothing to see here, move along citizen!

181 points by goodcanadian 7y ago

> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside my home or office.

bilbo0s 7y ago
You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at? Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or something?" Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38 Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."
- draw_down 7y ago
  Normally yes, but you have to understand Cuba is full of evil, evil communists. So it couldn’t possibly be something so simple, it must be one of their wily communist plots.
- agapon 7y ago
  But, did the spraying start short time before the symptoms appeared? Or has it been going on for a long while? In the latter case, it's not strange that they didn't make a connection initially, because "nothing changed".
- scohesc 7y ago
  Maybe the spraying happened at night when everyone was out of the office so nobody was none the wiser?

zug_zug 7y ago

tl; dr: - Neurological studies show actual damage to the same region of the brain for these diplomats - Pesticides (organophosphates) are put out as a candidate theory. - Research shows people whose residences were sprayed MORE with pesticide had greater symptoms, adding strong evidence - Mass Hysteria is dismissed as a theory, as the group of people experiencing it is highly vetted and because the diagnosis is only applicable when no underlying cause is present. In this case, the actual measurement of the brain show there is damage, ruling out the theory.

wyldfire 7y ago
> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual. Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according to embassy records. This suggests that in fact it was the US government (following the host government's lead) that introduced the toxin into their environment. If so, it seems like the Cubans may be owed an apology. But did the embassy use stronger concentration than Cuba? Or a different agent? Are any local Havanans experiencing these symptoms?
- alexandercrohde 7y ago
  The article answers this
  - wyldfire 7y ago
    Specifically this section I suppose: > The symptoms experienced by the victims — headaches, hearing loss, cognitive problems, loss of balance, etc. — are frequently found in the general population, these scientists argued, and can be attributed to many causes.
    - zkms 7y ago
      also page 35 mentions that there's genetic factors (PON1 gene) that affect organophosphate susceptibilities

PentiumBug 7y ago

(Cuban here.) I find this result very interesting, really, as we're exposed to these chemicals in varying degrees and frequency. I personally live in a epidemiological controlled/safe (-ish) area of Havana, so my exposure is very limited. However, I do know that some other areas are way more affected by vectors since they are less urbanized and with more population density. In those cases the authorities are more aggressive in the use of mass fumigation, particularly during the summer and autumn; but still I don't think that such elevated frequency produces the effects shown in the article, for the general population, that is. It is true that we're particularly vulnerable to zika, chikungunya, yellow fever, and dengue fever (especially in 2016); and what I can easily imagine (and conjecture) is that diplomatic personnel were overly (and rightly) concerned, and liberally applied these products with more zeal than necessary. Thus, increased their exposition to these chemicals.

goodcanadian 7y ago
They were apparently spraying INSIDE the offices. I'm not particularly concerned about pesticides in general, but I would NEVER use them indoors. Also, the diplomatic buildings are likely well sealed and air conditioned while I suspect local buildings use more natural cooling (open windows and the breeze) and are thus better ventilated.

throwaway66920 7y ago

Maybe we would use less pesticides if we just called them neurotoxins.

fritzw 7y ago
Fun story... VX nerve agent was discovered and originally introduced as a pesticide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
- vilhelm_s 7y ago
  Not exactly VX, but Amiton (also known as Tetram or VG). It's about one tenth as toxic as VX, and similar in toxicity as sarin. In 1975 the Iraqi ministry of agriculture negotiated with a U.S. company, Pfaudler, for a contract to build a pesticide production plant. The deal eventually fell through because Pfaudler did not understand why the Iraqis insisted on manufacturing Amiton instead of some safer alternative.
minikites 7y ago
The dose makes the poison, caffeine is a pesticide.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Caffeine and nicotine are pesticides that humans have metabolic pathways to deal with. Dogs, for instance, can't handle theobromine.
  - cwkoss 7y ago
    tobacco 'tea' is a very effective pesticide, and is pretty easily removed by water. Great in dry areas, less so in rainy ones.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      PSA for anyone reading this is thinking "I should try that." Be very, deadly careful not to get it on your skin. You can hit LD50 pretty quickly by dousing yourself in liquid stimulants.

aug_aug 7y ago

Possibly related tidbit - I used to roll my own cigarettes when working in the field as a geologist, left a pack of papers under the seat of my truck which had no carpeting, spilled 100% DEET on the floor, DEET absorbed into pack of papers. Months later found those same papers (what luck!) and rolled a cigarette without thinking about it, minutes later I was asking my now wife if she "could hear the helicopter sounds!!?" and thought I was losing my mind. I put it all together weeks later when I remembered the DEET spill from several months earlier. Pesticides/insecticides, in my experience at least, can induce those symptoms, lol - maybe the mosquito spraying was a little heavy by the hotel? And now I hope I don't have brain damage, thanks internet.

skim_milk 7y ago
When my father was a child, he would bike behind the trucks that sprayed DDT all over the neighborhood because the DDT mist kept him cool. I hope you'll be fine, because people have done much worse!
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  Omg I hope your dad is alright?
  - joecool1029 7y ago
    As scary sounding as the anecdote was, DDT is known for relatively low human (and mammal) toxicity. They did absolutely insane human studies with it in the 1950's, and dosages of up to 380mg/kg were tolerable. There was also no evidence that it produced cancer at commonly exposed dosages: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/ddt-ext.html http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicro... < some more info here.
- t1lthesky 7y ago
  Ha I remember doing the same thing when I was ~6 years old in South Korea. There would be these trucks that went around spraying mosquito killing fog in the apartment complexes and all the little kids from the neighborhood would run behind them. Well now I'm 30 and so far things seem to be ok! Fingers crossed

cat199 7y ago

Interesting findings, but how do we blame the Russians for this? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-suspect-russia-mystery-attacks-diplomats-cuba-china-n908141 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-sus... " The suspicion that Russia is likely behind the alleged attacks is backed up by evidence from communications intercepts, known in the spy world as signals intelligence, amassed during a lengthy and ongoing investigation involving the FBI, the CIA and other U.S. agencies. The officials declined to elaborate on the nature of the intelligence. "

codezero 7y ago
At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria involved. However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the spraying is a good cover. I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they only sprayed with more frequency at diplomatic residences and the embassy. Edit: a few replies here are really more thoughtful than my comment. I recommend reading them :)
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Well, on the one hand, "they" did spray more frequently at diplomatic residences. On the other hand, unless things have changed considerably since my day, "they", would almost certainly be American diplomatic services. That's who would direct the spraying operations at those residences, not the Cubans. The Cubans would have no involvement with those spraying operations, however, you would think Cubans would still spray the neighborhood just as they would any other neighborhood. That said, again, the problem was likely us spraying our diplomats' homes and offices multiple times more because, to our minds, the Cuban spraying was not enough.
  - codezero 7y ago
    Ah yes. Great point.
- 7y ago

rb808 7y ago

I preferred the top-secret Russian microwave neuro-weapon headlines. :)

empath75 7y ago

This seems completely plausible to me and I hope it puts the absurd "sonic weapon" theory to bed. Combination of stress, genuine brain damage from excessive pesticide fumigation, and a little bit of mass hysteria.

sohkamyung 7y ago
For reference, the "sonic weapon" may have been very loud crickets [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-cuba-crickets.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-cuba...

aaron695 7y ago

More lies on top of lies. IF this is effecting all of Cuba then this is exactly fucking hysteria. It's not Russian spies, it's not magic sonic weapons that sound like crickets but for some reason can't be crickets! We seriously had recordings of crickets which the world knows what they sound like yet the Emperor still had no clothes. It's hysteria. On top of that the brains studies so far have been disproven. And how did it affect the diplomats in China and other countries? Seriously the whole mystical city of Havana has brain damage but only the North Americans have found out? Banging my head on a wall reading these dumb stories is the only brain damage here. He even says they are a 'very strong group' EXACTLY were you expect hysteria.

narrator 7y ago

Reminds me of all the people mysteriously dying in the Dominican Republic[1]. The best I could figure out from reading about it was that illegal pesticides were being used in hotels to eradicate bed bugs and they ended up getting on bottles of stuff in the minibar and in the food and randomly killing or making people extremely sick all over the country and the resort chains covered it up. [1]https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-results-in-rash-of-dominican-republic-deaths/ https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-resu...

zkms 7y ago
also reminiscent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths

jlpom 7y ago

I find this hypothesis slithly more plausible than a pulsed radiofrequency/microwaves attack where the way this could alter white matter seems unclear, but especially given a precedent [0] both are good candidates. This is compatible in my view to a russian interference in the midst of warming relations between Cuba and the US/Canada. The diplomats seems ro be the only members of the embassy to be affected and the russians know how to not leave their footprint when they don't want to (e.g. not Novitchok or Polonium). [0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal

hoseja 7y ago

It was just a gas leak! Nothing to see here, move along citizen!