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Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds
- donclark 7y agoTL DR: C-section babies pick up more hospital bacteria than those born vaginally, research shows. The findings could explain the higher prevalence of asthma, allergies and other immune conditions in babies born by caesarean. By six to nine months, the differences between the two groups had levelled out. But scientists think that the initial exposure to bacteria at the moment of birth could be a “thermostat” moment for the immune system, defining its sensitivity and which strains of bacteria trigger a response.
- DanBC 7y agoPlease don't tldr if you're going to do it this poorly. The new bit of this story is that the vaginal canal isn't adding anything to the microflora of the baby, and that the source is in fact fecal matter from the mother during birth.
- mhermher 7y agoI was under the impression that this has been pretty well established for a while.
- scaryclam 7y agoCame here to see if I was going crazy or if others had also heard of this before. Is this about new findings? Or just a regurgitated set of findings to get into the press? The article isn't clear as far as I can see.
- iamsmooney 7y agoHere is a link to the study the article references published today: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1560-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1560-1
- uxhacker 7y agoYes, before it was believed that the bacteria came from the vaginia, but now it looks like it comes from the gut.
- iamsmooney 7y agoI thought the same. Our OB/GYN, doula, hospital staff and birthing classes all covered this as if it were factual and provided some ways to overcome it should you go through a c-section. Still good to see studies around this get passed around. You never know if you'll have to go through an emergency caesarean and being prepared is best.
- thaumasiotes 7y agoYes, it is currently normal but not universal to take a vaginal swab from the mother and rub it in the newborn's mouth. Not a new idea at all.
- erikrothoff 7y agoMy twin brother was born by caesarean. He gets asthma attacks from allergies that I don’t have. I’ve wondered for a while what effect a faecal transplant could have...
- blitmap 7y ago"I want my brother to eat shit." huehuehue
- NullPrefix 7y agoIt's not eating. They stick it up the ass.
- ryanong 7y agoIt can be eating too
- arcticbull 7y agoI think it can be capsules that you swallow haha.
- bitwize 7y agoYou can also swallow a crapsule.
- dang 7y agoPlease don't do this here.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- yumraj 7y agoHad he had a skin test done to see what all he is allergic to? He may be able to get allergy shots to help treat allergies.
- 7y ago
- certmd 7y agoMy younger brothers are identical twins, one born vaginally and the other 20 min later via C-section. I've always said they'd be good data for these type of studies. Anecdotally, they don't really have big differences regarding allergies or autoimmune disorders. Although growing up I always complained one stunk up the bathroom worse than the other.
- toolslive 7y agoAny idea how frequent this (the first naturally, the second via C-section) is ?
- samstave 7y agoWell, it would seem that when it does happen it’s a 50/50 split
- robbiep 7y agoIncreasingly in developed countries twin births are caesars; the risk profile of twin births often necessitates this for patient safety. When a normal vaginal delivery is possible (ie first twin cephalic) generally the second will follow. My partner (obgyn Resident ) says she has had 2 twin births where the first was vaginal and the second Caesar, out of roughly a couple hundred
- youeseh 7y agoI think you were just trying to divide and conquer. It's hard to compete with twins! ;)
- koolba 7y agoWhich is the stinker?
- certmd 7y agoC-section. n=1
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- umeshunni 7y agoThis has been hypothesised for a while and is listed in many pregnancy books. There are also hypothesis linking the difference in gut flora to other long term outcomes (obesity, autism etc) in adults. Reference: J. Neu and J. Rushing, “Cesarean Versus Vaginal Delivery: Long-Term Infant Outcomes and the Hygiene Hypothesis,” Clinics in Perinatology 38, no. 2 (2011): 321–331.
- giarc 7y agoThis has been known for quite a while, basically passing through the non sterile vaginal canal vs the sterile (or close to it) abdominal wall yields differences. This has lead to some questionable practices such as "vaginal seeding" whereby new moms will swab their vagina and then seed their babies shortly after birth (usually through placing the gauze in babies mouth or around their face). This comes up not infrequently at the hospital I work at. I think much of it stems from Facebook rather than actual discussions with their OB.
- bitwize 7y agoYeah, that sounds like a "crunchy Karen" practice...
- oneepic 7y agoI don't want to google "crunchy Karen" at work...can someone post a description here?
- reneherse 7y agoSeems like a misogynist stereotype used to unthinkingly dismiss an argument.
- filoleg 7y agoidk man, I feel kinda ok with dismissing antivax/essential oils/healing crystals theories. Especially considering how many children got harmed (some to the point of death) by "crunchy karens" who decided that they know better than modern medicine and doctors. While every topic deserves to be questioned and not dismissed, some have been argued to death already, and I would feel ok with not getting into an argument about the merit of vaccines for a while.
- wdbbdw 7y agoConflating microbiome interests with antivax mania doesn't make any sense to me, and I agree that "crunchy Karen" is a dismissive sexist tropE, especially in this context. Do any of you have even a passing familiarity with modern microbiome research? It's super fascinating and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- unixhero 7y agoThis is old news.
- uxhacker 7y agoI thought the same, but No, as the original hypothesis was the bacteria came from the vaginia, but this study shows it comes from gut. It maybe because during delivery women often have anal fissures.
- DoingIsLearning 7y agoI am not an obstetrician but I am pretty sure that fecal transfer is far more likely because of acccidental pooping while 'pushing' instead of anal tearing/fissures.
- unixhero 7y agoOh God. How did I get here.
- trhway 7y agothe mother probably gets antibiotics before caesarean. Does that antibiotic make it into the baby? That would mean that beside not getting the good vaginal mix of bacteria (that mix among other benefits seems to be able to control candida yeast growth which is a big deal on its own), the bacteria set that the baby already possesses gets hit by the antibiotic, a double whammy of sort.
- robbiep 7y agoA Caesar mother does get a stat of antibiotics before opening. In crash caesars this would barely have time to distribute; normal operating procedure calls for the dose to occur 30 min to 1 hr before skin incision though. You have a bit of a misunderstanding here - a baby does not have a microbiome in the womb - it is a sterile environment
- trhway 7y ago>You have a bit of a misunderstanding here - a baby does not have a microbiome in the womb - it is a sterile environment no. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350424/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350424/ "The first, and most important, contribution to the genesis of the microbiome is vertical transmission of maternal microbiota. Colonization of mucosa in the digestive, respiratory, urogenital tracts, as well as the skin begins at, or perhaps even before, the time of birth when a newborn is exposed to a mother’s microbiota. It was previously thought that the in utero environment was largely sterile and that a fetus was not colonized with bacteria until the time of birth. Recent studies suggest the presence of a microbiome within the placenta as well as fetal meconium, suggesting that the colonization process begins well before delivery. " And my point is that the "most important, contribution to the genesis of the microbiome" probably gets hit with the antibiotics given for C-section.
- robbiep 7y agoThanks. This is new knowledge since I was at medical school. The paper you link however is not at all convincing. A better paper here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2019.01124/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2019.0112... Does a better job of explaining things. Interestingly the species isolated are highly homogenous - https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/454989/fmicb-10-01124-HTML/image_m/fmicb-10-01124-g001.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/454989/fmicb-10-0... Most samples had only a single species isolated from meconium; Controlling for sources of contamination it looks like out of the sample of 43 there were several that would meet the classification of a sterile environment. So, I was wrong; but so are you
- Syzygies 7y agoMany of us Caesarian babies didn't get "vaginal seeding" at birth, but have been trying to catch up ever since.
- irrational 7y agoYou joke, and are being downvoted, but I had never ever thought about cunnilingus affecting ones gut biome. Is that ridiculous or even possible?
- Syzygies 7y agoIt certainly affects gut biome, personal observation and what I've read. Michael Douglas also believes this caused his cancer. It's a cliche that the kids from the rich side of town, who didn't put dirt in their mouths growing up, are the ones who get mono in college. Farm kids are healthiest; our immune systems need regular work they can manage.
- iyw 7y agoCancerlingus? Preposterous.
- User23 7y agoHPV can cause mouth and throat cancer[1]. [1]https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/can-oral-sex-give-you-cancer/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/can-oral-sex-give...
- iyw 7y agoSo that would be HPV causing cancer. Not cunnilingus. If you are insinuating that the transmission of HPV is through cunnilingus then fine. But stating a direct causation is careless.
- eT8AZithxooKei6 7y ago
- mcantelon 7y agoGut bacteria IIRC effect personality/mood as well as other things.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- refurb 7y agoThe biggest question that surround all this microbiome discussion is - does the difference even matter? Note that you can significantly alter your gut microbiome simply by changes to your diet. Right now the link between the microbiome and allergies is tenuous at best.
- mcbuilder 7y agoMy understanding is that yes environment makes a huge difference in your biome, however there may be strains of bacteria, for example, that you would only get from your mother. Maybe something she picked up playing in the dirt in a different country, or maybe something from her mother. Whether it makes a difference really depends on the individual. Personally I think it's better to get the gut bacteria that you can from your mother near the time of birth, but that's me.
- refurb 7y agoIf you were to test the microbiome of a family, you’d find they are very similar. Humans living in close quarters exchange biomes readily (oral - fecal transmission). I’m certainly not arguing there is no impact of the microbiome on disease, but right now the data is far to early to say anything conclusively.
- HillaryBriss 7y ago> does the difference even matter? The article seems to say the answer is yes: ...scientists think that the initial exposure to bacteria at the moment of birth could be a “thermostat” moment for the immune system, defining its sensitivity and which strains of bacteria trigger a response.
- primroot 7y ago> “In many cases, a caesarean is a life-saving procedure and can be the right choice for a woman and her baby,” And in other cases it is a way to make life easier for medical staff? Here in Panama, babies are disproportionately born through C-section in privately run hospitals. Update: While I can't cite any stats for Panama, there is an article [0] that says "The rates can be even higher in private clinics. For example, in Brazil, 80-90 percent of births in private clinics are now C-sections, compared with about 30-40 percent of births in public hospitals." [0] https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/10/12/656198429/rate-of-c-sections-is-rising-at-an-alarming-rate https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/10/12/6561984...
- Frqy3 7y agoJoshua Gans (my old economics Prof) did a study of births by day of week, and showed that the fall in weekend births was explainable by the rise in inducement and cesarean section procedures. https://www.academia.edu/2808187/What_Explains_the_Fall_in_Weekend_Births https://www.academia.edu/2808187/What_Explains_the_Fall_in_W...
- s3graham 7y ago"To posh to push", was also a saying a generation ago.
- clydethefrog 7y agoIn Dutch the C-section is called the "King's cut".
- afraca 7y agoSorry for nitpicking: "emperor's cut"
- Smithalicious 7y agoNamed after emperor Caesar, just like the word "caesarian".
- aszantu 7y agoI was depressed for half my life, I read on gut microbiome about 5 years ago(swapping the gut microbiome of mices changes their character) but didn't put it together until I switched my diet to meat only. Any kind of sugar seems to trigger depression for me, that sadly means that I can't eat plants. And current push for plant based diets worries me a lot. I was a C-Section baby.
- jaynetics 7y agoEating only meat is a serious health risk. There are other sources of protein, and many vegetables that go very well with a low carb diet.
- aszantu 7y agojust like I said, the moment I eat anything containing fiber or sugar, depression comes crashing back. Making me want to die and stuff like that.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago> Eating only meat is a serious health risk [citation needed]
- bpanon 7y agoYou can’t eat spinach or broccoli?
- aszantu 7y agonope
- pinky1417 7y agoHaving a c-section might not be the underlying cause of the problem. Doctors carry out c-sections when a vaginal birth would create complications for the mother or the child. I.E. the mother or child was already "sicker" prior to the c-section. I'd love to see a randomized control trial for this. To do it ethically, the trial could be designed like the CRASH trials. In those trials, doctors received patients with head injury and administered a placebo or corticosteroids. Since it was unclear whether corticosteroids helped or hurt, it was ethical for doctors to randomize patients. For births, only situations where it's 50/50 between a c-section and vaginal birth would qualify. Perhaps it's too small a subset to be workable or perhaps it's never 50/50, but that type of trial would provide much stronger evidence for this intriguing idea. On a personal note, I was a c-section baby and seem OK!
- fiatjaf 7y ago> the mother or child was already "sicker" prior to the c-section That is your illusion.
- AstralStorm 7y agoI wonder, does this relationship hold at 1 month old? 1 year? Any decent longitudinal studies of C-section babies from elective sections removing the health based ones?