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1) What does this mean for Xi's leadership and the CCP? Will this threaten their power? No, only had you experienced the level and depth of China's indoctrinat

1) What does this mean for Xi's leadership and the CCP? Will this threaten their power? No, only had you experienced the level and depth of China's indoctrination, can you understand how profoundly it affects the people, I still recall now and then the red songs I was taught and sang. Your whole world view is shaped by the regime to ensure their best interest, you think in their ways even if you are a rebel. BTW they now teach "politics" in primary schools. The Youth are extremely patriotic and loyal to the party, they are impatient to even let you start your different opinions. There will be discontent, but the power and reach of the tools the party has built is simply unprecedented in human history. 4) How will this effect China's middle class? If the condo market collapses, most of them probably will go bankrupt and be in huge debts for a long time, being taught bubble economics the hard way, but the market probably can bounce back since it's CCP monopoly. Worst case senario the party can print money nonstop to keep the prices from crashing.

kiliantics 7y ago
Much of this description applies pretty well to western countries, especially the US.
- Quarrel 7y ago
  Not in the same way. The US has had credit collapses before, and has relatively robust institutions to deal with it. Robustness that has developed through major crashes. This is largely true of most developed economies as well. China's credit bust will be epic - epicly bad, both for China and the rest of the world, but mostly for the Chinese people.
- AFascistWorld 7y ago
  No no no, in which American city does the condo prices wthin it's urban area are no less than 1 million dollars? In Beijing you have it, it's a city full of (multi) million-dollar-property owners, and the majority of them love the CCP dearly for a reason.
  - tmh79 7y ago
    Most American cities have condos available for less than 1m dollars. In fact, pretty much all of them do. In fact, pretty much only in certain areas of NYC, SF, Boston and LA are the median condo prices above 1m. In Chicago, the 3rd largest city in the US, condo prices are like 400k-600k for a 30th floor lakeview 2br in a nice neighborhood.
- entropea 7y ago
  The indoctrination and politics being taught. Every day children in school stand up and pledge allegiance to the flag and there are constant stories of children being abused for not abiding by it. We're told we're "not being American" if we challenge the official narrative. The fact that you're being downvoted is just more evidence, people hate being told they're just as indoctrinated into propaganda as China is, but they're just as indoctrinated into their own version.
- woodgrainz 7y ago
  China has no freedom of speech, the press, religion, or assembly. There is no real comparison of the indoctrination of the people of China to the US to be made. The systems are completely different as to be unrecognizable from one another. In addition, the Chinese court system is simply a tool of the government to keep themselves in power. Reference the 99.9% conviction rate: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932...
  - mistermann 7y ago
    > There is no real comparison of the indoctrination of the people of China to the US to be made. The systems are completely different as to be unrecognizable from one another. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. It's true, the two systems are significantly different, but I don't think that rules out that Americans are subject to a form of indoctrination. Look at the stranglehold the two parties have on the electoral system in the US. Just as one example, what happened to Bernie Sanders in the last election barely raised an eyebrow. If you listen to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast for several weeks on either side of the last election (particularly after), I'd say it's pretty hard to make a case that the system isn't rigged to a fairly large degree, but how many people are actually aware of this? I don't know if indoctrination is the perfect word for it, but constantly singing the praises of the system of democracy, while realistically the only alternatives people get have to go through a very thorough pre-screening for "suitability", and almost no one ever asks what the hell is really going on here, seems like a relative of some sort to indoctrination.
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      Even if everything you're saying is true, the important point is that you and I and Dan Carlin are free to go around saying it. It's my strong impression that this is not true in China; that it's a de facto if not de jure crime for media personalities to say things like "the Communist Party has rigged the system to a fairly large degree" or "Xi Jinping Thought seems kinda dumb and I'd like to read the alternatives".
umvi 7y ago
> BTW they now teach "politics" in primary schools. The Youth are extremely patriotic and loyal to the party, they are impatient to even let you start your different opinions. Are they "patriotic" enough to report family members to the regime as political dissenters? If so, China is really in a bad spot as that is reminiscent of Nazi Germany. At least we would have a pseudo-ironic name for the program ("Xitler Youth")
- garmaine 7y ago
  Go look up "cultural revolution" on wikipedia.
- jszymborski 7y ago
  An interesting memoir of the Cowshed's of China's Cultural Revolution https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/books/ct-prj-cowshed-ji-xianlin-20160128-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/books/ct-prj-co...
jacquesm 7y ago
> Worst case senario the party can print money nonstop to keep the prices from crashing. History says that that has its limits too.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Not if you're an economic powerhouse like the US, China or the Euro zone.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Being an economic powerhouse does not make you exempt from cause and effect. You can print your way out of a mid-level problem, trying to print your way out of an actual crisis is just going to accelerate and deepen that crisis. More of the kind of behavior that got you into some problem is usually not the way to get out. Hyperinflation could hit the US, China or the Eurozone in a very hard way. If you do it gradually you may get away with it, do it too quickly and the whole thing will take on a momentum all its own. A bit like pushing a ball of snow down hill. For a while it seems like you are in control and then suddenly you realize you are no longer in control. By then it will be too late to stop it. I was on the fence in 2008. Despite having money in one of the Dutch banks that was hard hit by the sub-prime repackaging I was all for letting them go bust. Instead the state stepped in and propped up the bank. This meant that everybody ended up paying for that and the execs walked. Hard to make the call on what was the best solution there, it is very well possible that this was the optimum outcome but it set the stage for a repeat, the beginnings of which we are already witnessing today.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      If the worry is condo prices crashing, hyperinflation would certainly keep them from crashing...
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        Hyperinflation is great for those with debts. For everybody else: not so much. Savings, pensions all end up being worthless overnight essentially anything with future value and without an asset to back it turns to dust overnight. This happened in Poland a while ago. Everybody with debts in old Zloty such as mortgages and so on was ecstatic, they could pay off their mortgage with three months work after the crash. Everybody else lost their life's work. Those with property ended up neutral. Banks learned their lesson: they pegged new mortgages to the Mark initially and later to the Euro, but people still got paid in Zloty...
gscott 7y ago
With the social credit system if you can't pay your debts you become a 2nd class citizen. If there is a more serious downturn in China the social credit system will tear the county apart.

kiliantics 7y ago

Much of this description applies pretty well to western countries, especially the US.

Quarrel 7y ago
Not in the same way. The US has had credit collapses before, and has relatively robust institutions to deal with it. Robustness that has developed through major crashes. This is largely true of most developed economies as well. China's credit bust will be epic - epicly bad, both for China and the rest of the world, but mostly for the Chinese people.
AFascistWorld 7y ago
No no no, in which American city does the condo prices wthin it's urban area are no less than 1 million dollars? In Beijing you have it, it's a city full of (multi) million-dollar-property owners, and the majority of them love the CCP dearly for a reason.
- tmh79 7y ago
  Most American cities have condos available for less than 1m dollars. In fact, pretty much all of them do. In fact, pretty much only in certain areas of NYC, SF, Boston and LA are the median condo prices above 1m. In Chicago, the 3rd largest city in the US, condo prices are like 400k-600k for a 30th floor lakeview 2br in a nice neighborhood.
entropea 7y ago
The indoctrination and politics being taught. Every day children in school stand up and pledge allegiance to the flag and there are constant stories of children being abused for not abiding by it. We're told we're "not being American" if we challenge the official narrative. The fact that you're being downvoted is just more evidence, people hate being told they're just as indoctrinated into propaganda as China is, but they're just as indoctrinated into their own version.
woodgrainz 7y ago
China has no freedom of speech, the press, religion, or assembly. There is no real comparison of the indoctrination of the people of China to the US to be made. The systems are completely different as to be unrecognizable from one another. In addition, the Chinese court system is simply a tool of the government to keep themselves in power. Reference the 99.9% conviction rate: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/12193202/Chinese-courts-convict-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/121932...
- mistermann 7y ago
  > There is no real comparison of the indoctrination of the people of China to the US to be made. The systems are completely different as to be unrecognizable from one another. I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. It's true, the two systems are significantly different, but I don't think that rules out that Americans are subject to a form of indoctrination. Look at the stranglehold the two parties have on the electoral system in the US. Just as one example, what happened to Bernie Sanders in the last election barely raised an eyebrow. If you listen to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast for several weeks on either side of the last election (particularly after), I'd say it's pretty hard to make a case that the system isn't rigged to a fairly large degree, but how many people are actually aware of this? I don't know if indoctrination is the perfect word for it, but constantly singing the praises of the system of democracy, while realistically the only alternatives people get have to go through a very thorough pre-screening for "suitability", and almost no one ever asks what the hell is really going on here, seems like a relative of some sort to indoctrination.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Even if everything you're saying is true, the important point is that you and I and Dan Carlin are free to go around saying it. It's my strong impression that this is not true in China; that it's a de facto if not de jure crime for media personalities to say things like "the Communist Party has rigged the system to a fairly large degree" or "Xi Jinping Thought seems kinda dumb and I'd like to read the alternatives".

umvi 7y ago

> BTW they now teach "politics" in primary schools. The Youth are extremely patriotic and loyal to the party, they are impatient to even let you start your different opinions. Are they "patriotic" enough to report family members to the regime as political dissenters? If so, China is really in a bad spot as that is reminiscent of Nazi Germany. At least we would have a pseudo-ironic name for the program ("Xitler Youth")

garmaine 7y ago
Go look up "cultural revolution" on wikipedia.
jszymborski 7y ago
An interesting memoir of the Cowshed's of China's Cultural Revolution https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/books/ct-prj-cowshed-ji-xianlin-20160128-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/books/ct-prj-co...

jacquesm 7y ago

> Worst case senario the party can print money nonstop to keep the prices from crashing. History says that that has its limits too.

mschuster91 7y ago
Not if you're an economic powerhouse like the US, China or the Euro zone.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Being an economic powerhouse does not make you exempt from cause and effect. You can print your way out of a mid-level problem, trying to print your way out of an actual crisis is just going to accelerate and deepen that crisis. More of the kind of behavior that got you into some problem is usually not the way to get out. Hyperinflation could hit the US, China or the Eurozone in a very hard way. If you do it gradually you may get away with it, do it too quickly and the whole thing will take on a momentum all its own. A bit like pushing a ball of snow down hill. For a while it seems like you are in control and then suddenly you realize you are no longer in control. By then it will be too late to stop it. I was on the fence in 2008. Despite having money in one of the Dutch banks that was hard hit by the sub-prime repackaging I was all for letting them go bust. Instead the state stepped in and propped up the bank. This meant that everybody ended up paying for that and the execs walked. Hard to make the call on what was the best solution there, it is very well possible that this was the optimum outcome but it set the stage for a repeat, the beginnings of which we are already witnessing today.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    If the worry is condo prices crashing, hyperinflation would certainly keep them from crashing...
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Hyperinflation is great for those with debts. For everybody else: not so much. Savings, pensions all end up being worthless overnight essentially anything with future value and without an asset to back it turns to dust overnight. This happened in Poland a while ago. Everybody with debts in old Zloty such as mortgages and so on was ecstatic, they could pay off their mortgage with three months work after the crash. Everybody else lost their life's work. Those with property ended up neutral. Banks learned their lesson: they pegged new mortgages to the Mark initially and later to the Euro, but people still got paid in Zloty...

gscott 7y ago

With the social credit system if you can't pay your debts you become a 2nd class citizen. If there is a more serious downturn in China the social credit system will tear the county apart.