4 ms·

What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The tec

What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought -- and not this dumbass "I want to be free to say stupid offensive shit with impunity" flavor of "inclusivity" that people around here seem to champion. That is a Good Thing and organizations like MIT and the FSF need to be very careful about whom they let represent them. As far as I'm aware Stallman has neither been arrested nor has his website been torn down, so he's welcomed to continue to make whatever good and bad points he feels like and the rest of us are welcomed to judge him as we wish: smart, stupid, ignorable, or maybe even abhorrent to the point where maybe he shouldn't be representing a place like MIT. Or the FSF. It's a free country, after all.

raxxorrax 7y ago
If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.
- josteink 7y ago
  > You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. This seems to be a pretty common paradox. The people who promote "diversity" (and sometimes even diversity of thought!), never accept anyone who wants to debate the nuances of that concept, nor how that may best be implemented. Basically they demand conformity to the one "diverse" view and their definition of diversity. You're either with them or you're "part of the problem". You'd think at some point they would notice how they come off ass utterly hypocritical.
  - CathedralBorrow 7y ago
    ...and that seems to be a pretty common straw man. Who is "they"? Is this a self-selected group, or chosen by you? Am I maybe in it?
  - chasing 7y ago
    Not true at all. People who want to increase diversity debate freedom of speech and what makes for “diversity” all the time. If you’re not hearing it, maybe you need to listen more carefully. In my experience people who say what you’ve said above actually don’t want debate: They’re frustrated that other people have made their choices and wish to either belabor the topic endlessly or filibuster and waste everyone’s time. You may have freedom of speech, but you do not have an enshrined right to be debated against. There are only so many hours in the day and people must get on with their lives.
- nhf 7y ago
  There have also been numerous stories from those around him at MIT about inappropriate conduct with students and staff. The flip side of diversity is inclusion and those actions ran counter to MIT's own policies on an inclusive workplace (if you want a legalistic justification for him needing to leave). At the same time, though, diversity can't be a cover for actions that are harmful to the larger community. Many places in the world still have strict social pressures against other sexual orientations. Saying you want diversity and inclusion, but excluding gay people—that would be conformity. However, being around queer folks does not actively harm the workplace environment or social culture. However, asking new female students if they want to go out with you, or being grossly insensitive to the plight of sexual assault victims is harmful to a non-trivial portion of the lab. I would argue that, while RMS is a rightfully accomplished activist and computer scientist, his removal at this point in time makes CSAIL a more inclusive place. Those who might stay away because they're worried about his reputation or hurtful insensitivity—say, young female students, often underrepresented in science—may be more willing to work there.
- PaulRobinson 7y ago
  He wants people to be treated in a uniform and equitable way, yes. That doesn't mean people "have to conform", but that our treatment of people should not be diverse: it should be the same for everybody, and accomodating of their diversity within the bounds of acceptable behaviour. RMS has been treated in the same way anybody else would be. He hasn't been given special treatment. We are therefore being consistent as a society in our treatment of him. Right now, I can hear people already screaming about diversity of opinion, but they're missing the point: equality and diversity is not about a right for anybody to behave however they want, but for the treatment of those behaviours to be fair and equitable. RMS has been treated fairly and equitably: he has not been arrested or imprisoned. MIT have behaved in a way consistent with any other employee, and FSF have been consistent with any other organisation trying to protect a public perception for a wider cause. In this respect, he is not a brave contrarian warrior tackling an unjust society. He's a man who treats other people rudely and says things 95% of the population find unjustifably crude and offensive who has found himself at odds with clear and explicit employment law and codes of conduct.
  - hope-striker 7y ago
    No one's saying he's brave or contrarian here. He said something incredibly stupid, but (a) not the horrifying thing that news outlets are accusing him of, and (b) certainly not something worth trying to ruin his life over. This kind of misrepresentation and witch-hunting shouldn't even be done in rare circumstances, do you honestly believe that everyone should be treated like this?
- chasing 7y ago
  > What you desire is conformity. Inasmuch as any organization must have a set of goals and principles that everyone within that organization must adhere to: Yes! No one has taken away Stallman’s freedom of speech.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    Then just say that you want conformity to your social norms instead of inclusiveness and be more precise with your statements, please.
    - chasing 7y ago
      > your social norms I am not affiliated with either MIT or the FSF, so my social norms have little to do with it. Anyway, you're playing the dumb little game that people like to play with this topic: "If you're so 'tolerant' why won't you tolerate people saying offensive shit?" And you've heard the answer a million times, I bet, you just won't accept it: Because it silences higher-quality diverse voices and "asshole who says repellent things" is already a wildly overrepresented class of person in the tech industry.
josteink 7y ago
> The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought So lets fire the guy who dares to ask questions about nuances of law. Gotcha. That's clearly driving "actual" diversity of thought.

raxxorrax 7y ago

If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.

josteink 7y ago
> You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. This seems to be a pretty common paradox. The people who promote "diversity" (and sometimes even diversity of thought!), never accept anyone who wants to debate the nuances of that concept, nor how that may best be implemented. Basically they demand conformity to the one "diverse" view and their definition of diversity. You're either with them or you're "part of the problem". You'd think at some point they would notice how they come off ass utterly hypocritical.
- CathedralBorrow 7y ago
  ...and that seems to be a pretty common straw man. Who is "they"? Is this a self-selected group, or chosen by you? Am I maybe in it?
- chasing 7y ago
  Not true at all. People who want to increase diversity debate freedom of speech and what makes for “diversity” all the time. If you’re not hearing it, maybe you need to listen more carefully. In my experience people who say what you’ve said above actually don’t want debate: They’re frustrated that other people have made their choices and wish to either belabor the topic endlessly or filibuster and waste everyone’s time. You may have freedom of speech, but you do not have an enshrined right to be debated against. There are only so many hours in the day and people must get on with their lives.
nhf 7y ago
There have also been numerous stories from those around him at MIT about inappropriate conduct with students and staff. The flip side of diversity is inclusion and those actions ran counter to MIT's own policies on an inclusive workplace (if you want a legalistic justification for him needing to leave). At the same time, though, diversity can't be a cover for actions that are harmful to the larger community. Many places in the world still have strict social pressures against other sexual orientations. Saying you want diversity and inclusion, but excluding gay people—that would be conformity. However, being around queer folks does not actively harm the workplace environment or social culture. However, asking new female students if they want to go out with you, or being grossly insensitive to the plight of sexual assault victims is harmful to a non-trivial portion of the lab. I would argue that, while RMS is a rightfully accomplished activist and computer scientist, his removal at this point in time makes CSAIL a more inclusive place. Those who might stay away because they're worried about his reputation or hurtful insensitivity—say, young female students, often underrepresented in science—may be more willing to work there.
PaulRobinson 7y ago
He wants people to be treated in a uniform and equitable way, yes. That doesn't mean people "have to conform", but that our treatment of people should not be diverse: it should be the same for everybody, and accomodating of their diversity within the bounds of acceptable behaviour. RMS has been treated in the same way anybody else would be. He hasn't been given special treatment. We are therefore being consistent as a society in our treatment of him. Right now, I can hear people already screaming about diversity of opinion, but they're missing the point: equality and diversity is not about a right for anybody to behave however they want, but for the treatment of those behaviours to be fair and equitable. RMS has been treated fairly and equitably: he has not been arrested or imprisoned. MIT have behaved in a way consistent with any other employee, and FSF have been consistent with any other organisation trying to protect a public perception for a wider cause. In this respect, he is not a brave contrarian warrior tackling an unjust society. He's a man who treats other people rudely and says things 95% of the population find unjustifably crude and offensive who has found himself at odds with clear and explicit employment law and codes of conduct.
- hope-striker 7y ago
  No one's saying he's brave or contrarian here. He said something incredibly stupid, but (a) not the horrifying thing that news outlets are accusing him of, and (b) certainly not something worth trying to ruin his life over. This kind of misrepresentation and witch-hunting shouldn't even be done in rare circumstances, do you honestly believe that everyone should be treated like this?
chasing 7y ago
> What you desire is conformity. Inasmuch as any organization must have a set of goals and principles that everyone within that organization must adhere to: Yes! No one has taken away Stallman’s freedom of speech.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Then just say that you want conformity to your social norms instead of inclusiveness and be more precise with your statements, please.
  - chasing 7y ago
    > your social norms I am not affiliated with either MIT or the FSF, so my social norms have little to do with it. Anyway, you're playing the dumb little game that people like to play with this topic: "If you're so 'tolerant' why won't you tolerate people saying offensive shit?" And you've heard the answer a million times, I bet, you just won't accept it: Because it silences higher-quality diverse voices and "asshole who says repellent things" is already a wildly overrepresented class of person in the tech industry.

josteink 7y ago

> The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought So lets fire the guy who dares to ask questions about nuances of law. Gotcha. That's clearly driving "actual" diversity of thought.