6 ms·

Stallman conjured up a thought experiment where Minsky is innocent because the minor was "entirely willing." That was the defense Stallman decided, even if thos

Stallman conjured up a thought experiment where Minsky is innocent because the minor was "entirely willing." That was the defense Stallman decided, even if those aren't his exact words. His exact words aren't any better then whatever the media decided to run with, at the end of the day his intent was identical. The headline could have been "MIT scientist says you shouldn't get punished for raping minors as long as they present themselves as entirely willing." Do you believe I have gotten that wrong? And if not, can you argue why that is any better than what the media put out? If Minsky could show up to court for his crimes and he said "Your honor, I didn't know she was 15", he would still go to jail.

throwaway5849 7y ago
That’s not his defense. Stallman never disputed the lack of consent of the minor. He’s saying the minor might have been coerced by Epstein to “present herself as entirely willing”, i.e. she _looked like_ she’s willing when she’s really not. Minsky would have no way of knowing.
- nemothekid 7y ago
  >Minsky would have no way of knowing. You are making the same defense that you are claiming "that's not his defense." You both are making the same statement that "its ok, because he didn't know.", just in a very roundabout manner. If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense.
  - throwaway5849 7y ago
    I’m not saying it’s ok because he didn’t know. It’s certainly still rape, but I’d say the criminal in that case would be Epstein, not Minsky. If he sincerely thought she was a sex worker who’s over 18 and willing, why is he at fault? He might have done everything right and have gotten (what looked like) informed consent, for all we know. You don’t have to agree with this idea (it’s not like we have any evidence after all), but I hope we can agree that it’s not entirely unreasonable.
  - javagram 7y ago
    > If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense. This is correct, at least for many US states (22, according to Wikipedia’s article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) ) . You can meet someone under the age of consent in a bar, see them drinking alcohol, even have them show you their license and be fooled by a fake ID, and still be liable under the law to go to jail for statutory rape. According to that Wikipedia article though, in some other U.S. states ignorance would be a defense. Whether that’s the case for the U.S. Virgin Islands isn’t clear.
  - offtheisland 7y ago
    >If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense. He would be convicted if he had sex with her. The evidence that he had sex with her is that she was sent to his room and he didn't report that to the authorities. That doesn't seem overwhelmingly persuasive.
  - ipince 7y ago
    The statement is NOT "it's ok because he didn't know". The statement is "he probably didn't know". If he did have sex with her, it's still not ok, regardless of whether he knew or not. And yes, he would still go to jail.
jimrandomh 7y ago
Having sex with someone who is underage (in this case, 17, in a jurisdiction where the legal age is 18) is a strict-liability crime, meaning the prosecution doesn't have to prove that you knew. But be aware that, while Minsky is dead and unable to defend himself, there is apparently a witness who claims that Minsky is innocent--specifically, that Giuffre was directed to have sex with Minsky but Minsky turned her down. Since dead people can't have trials, we will probably never learn the facts of the matter.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dorfsmay 7y ago
> If Minsky could show up to court for his crimes and he said "Your honor, I didn't know she was 15", he would still go to jail. The way you worded this makes the argument much clearer, it's helpful. This is one of the few comments that add value in this thread. Thanks.
- choeger 7y ago
  Whereas 15 is a more extreme example, the law is absurd if that is also the case for 17 and a half vs. 18. Obviously there is no way to know the difference, so is the actual intention of the law to simply prevent people under 30 from having intercourse? Disclaimer: I am definitely not defending the whole sex dealership thing, I am just wondering about what a 19 or 20 year old college student is supposed to do to behave legally. Edit: as a comparison, in Germany the age of consent is 14 afaik and there exist several additional laws to protect, e.g. 15 year olds from older people that have some kind of power over them (e.g., teachers).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dorfsmay 7y ago
    As the parent poster pointed out, the ethical ground of the law, or how the case would be treated abroad would have no baring in court. Regardless, I think Stallmam's mistake was to try to start a debate about Minsky's guilt and about statutory rape in the wrong place: a mailing list about Computer Science which includes both staff and students, especially given that he is not a random person, he is an authority figure when it comes to CS and at MIT. The debates might be valid but the place, and time (given everything going on about the connections between Epstein and the MIT) are what is wrong here.
    - virgilp 7y ago
      > The debates might be valid but the place, and time (given everything going on about the connections between Epstein and the MIT) are what is wrong here. Yes. And it's such a Stallman thing to do, to have a valid debate regardless of circumstances (whether it was the time or the place to do it). He takes his principles to unheard-of extremes.... but at least, he is a principled man. I wish we had more people like him, TBH. It's one of the persons I don't always agree with, but I always found it very easy to respect his position.
lizzard 7y ago
I would still find it grotesque if she had been 20. Minsky was behaving like a huge sleazebag.
anm89 7y ago
You are failing to parse this sentence correctly. He explicitly does not think she was willing. He thinks she was unwilling but was coerced to give the appearance of willingness and that the appearance of the two from Minskys point of view were the same. This isn't a subtle difference. You think he said almost exactly the opposite of what he said
- smallmancontrov 7y ago
  > This isn't a subtle difference. Thanks. You're right, it isn't, but the gaslighting had me doubting my own sanity for a moment there.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    The thing is, this one statement is ... tolerable. A bit in poor taste as far as apologia goes. But then to have a long track record of disagreeing with age of consent; semantic arguments about pedophilia; treating women with disrespect and general creepiness-- it eventually gets to be too much. Any time you have to say this: > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. After having said this: > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. You've really screwed up, IMO. https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html That is, once you've fucked up with pedo-apologia a few too many times, maybe it's time to be really, really careful in what you say in defense of a colleague's possibly questionable sexual actions.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      How many disagreeable opinions do you personally allow someone to have before you believe it correct for people to try to coerce other people to stop doing business with them so you can silence them exactly?
eecc 7y ago
Identical? That’s not what the English language suggests.
zby 7y ago
He does not really say Minsky was innocent - he insists that what Minsky did should not be called 'assault' because this term is misleading. [Update] In another place he does argue that it is not evident that Minsky eventually did have sex with her - from the deposition it seems that she said she was directed to do it and then the lawyer asks where she went to do that and she answers that question, but it is quite probably that she misunderstood and answered the question 'where was she directed to go to do that', and there is a witness who says that Minsky turned her down. For me this is a fair argument.
Shinkei 7y ago
Unless of course it had happened in about half of Europe or many other places in the world where he wouldn't have even been charged with a crime... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe We are conflating 'law' and 'morals/ethics' in these arguments. If you act with strict adherence to the law, I'm assuming you've never jaywalked, committed piracy, ran a red light, etc. Oh, these are 'victimless crimes?' What about sex after having a couple drinks? Technically neither of you can consent under the law... a person has probably committed rape if their consensual partner had a 0.08 BAC. I think that our lack of a legal word other than 'rape' to describe 'statutory rape' does a disservice to those women are victims of forcible, violent sex acts. Although technically correct in many US jurisdictions, I think you would have a VERY hard time arguing that an 'adult' having consensual sex with a 17 year old being described as 'raping minors' is morally equivalent to the things that 'rape' is typically used to describe.
- CathedralBorrow 7y ago
  I remember some US politician making a similar point about "legitimate rape"
stickfigure 7y ago
The age of consent in Massachusetts is 16, as it is in the majority of US states. In fact, only 13 states put the age of consent at 18. While it might seem icky, sex between 17 and 75 year-olds isn't a crime.
- kelnos 7y ago
  It is in the US Virgin Islands, where this all took place, where the age of consent is 18.
koonsolo 7y ago
If you buy weed from a guy who robbed it from some other people, are you guilty of just buying the weed, or are you guilty of armed robbery? That is the distinction being made here, especially since in other parts of the world it's even legal to buy weed.
- sintaxi 7y ago
  As far as I'm aware buying stolen property isn't a strict liability crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal)
  - koonsolo 7y ago
    That is seriously fucked up. From that wikipedia article: > a pharmacist supplied drugs to a patient who presented a forged doctor's prescription, but was convicted even though the House of Lords accepted that the pharmacist was blameless. > a 15-year-old boy was convicted of statutory rape of a child under 13, a crime under Section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The prosecution accepted the boy's claim that he had believed the 12-year-old girl to be 15, but he was nevertheless sentenced to 12 months' detention. When I read this, I'm very happy to live in a more sane part of the world.
bigbugbag 7y ago
It's sad when people are blinded by anger and cannot read a sentence properly and understand what is meant. I'll repost here a comment found under the original source that started this misinterpretation of words: I want to point out a problem: The article claims that Stallman states (…)that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. I think this is a misinterpretation of what he said; it doesn’t change things for the most part, but what he said is at least understandable, if still fairly awful. His claim, which I don’t really believe is well-founded (but that’s beside the point at this instant) was: (…)the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. (emphasis mine) That is, as far as I understand, he’s stating it’s most likely that Epstein coerced her into the situation, but that she led Minsky to believe it was of her own free will — and, while I (and I suspect many other people) don’t see where Stallman gets that idea, and it isn’t necessarily the case here, I would assume we can all agree that in such a case, the individual wouldn’t be guilty of rape (due to a lack of mens rea, that is, not knowing that the person was being coerced). In short: he never states that an enslaved child could be ‘entirely willing’, merely that someone lacking relevant information could believe an enslaved child was entirely willing (requiring them to neither know the individual is enslaved nor that they are a child — which is possible for someone who’s 17 years old)
sildur 7y ago
She was 17, and at that point in time 17 was above the age of consent in the US. It was changed to 18 around 2002. So it would have been completely legal back then.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  This is incorrect. The age of consent in the USA varies based on state, many being 16, some being 17 and 18. However, the age of consent for sex trafficking or prostitution is fixed at 18 by federal law.

throwaway5849 7y ago

That’s not his defense. Stallman never disputed the lack of consent of the minor. He’s saying the minor might have been coerced by Epstein to “present herself as entirely willing”, i.e. she _looked like_ she’s willing when she’s really not. Minsky would have no way of knowing.

nemothekid 7y ago
>Minsky would have no way of knowing. You are making the same defense that you are claiming "that's not his defense." You both are making the same statement that "its ok, because he didn't know.", just in a very roundabout manner. If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense.
- throwaway5849 7y ago
  I’m not saying it’s ok because he didn’t know. It’s certainly still rape, but I’d say the criminal in that case would be Epstein, not Minsky. If he sincerely thought she was a sex worker who’s over 18 and willing, why is he at fault? He might have done everything right and have gotten (what looked like) informed consent, for all we know. You don’t have to agree with this idea (it’s not like we have any evidence after all), but I hope we can agree that it’s not entirely unreasonable.
- javagram 7y ago
  > If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense. This is correct, at least for many US states (22, according to Wikipedia’s article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) ) . You can meet someone under the age of consent in a bar, see them drinking alcohol, even have them show you their license and be fooled by a fake ID, and still be liable under the law to go to jail for statutory rape. According to that Wikipedia article though, in some other U.S. states ignorance would be a defense. Whether that’s the case for the U.S. Virgin Islands isn’t clear.
- offtheisland 7y ago
  >If Minsky were tried in US, he would be convicted. Ignorance is not a defense. He would be convicted if he had sex with her. The evidence that he had sex with her is that she was sent to his room and he didn't report that to the authorities. That doesn't seem overwhelmingly persuasive.
- ipince 7y ago
  The statement is NOT "it's ok because he didn't know". The statement is "he probably didn't know". If he did have sex with her, it's still not ok, regardless of whether he knew or not. And yes, he would still go to jail.

jimrandomh 7y ago

Having sex with someone who is underage (in this case, 17, in a jurisdiction where the legal age is 18) is a strict-liability crime, meaning the prosecution doesn't have to prove that you knew. But be aware that, while Minsky is dead and unable to defend himself, there is apparently a witness who claims that Minsky is innocent--specifically, that Giuffre was directed to have sex with Minsky but Minsky turned her down. Since dead people can't have trials, we will probably never learn the facts of the matter.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dorfsmay 7y ago

> If Minsky could show up to court for his crimes and he said "Your honor, I didn't know she was 15", he would still go to jail. The way you worded this makes the argument much clearer, it's helpful. This is one of the few comments that add value in this thread. Thanks.

choeger 7y ago
Whereas 15 is a more extreme example, the law is absurd if that is also the case for 17 and a half vs. 18. Obviously there is no way to know the difference, so is the actual intention of the law to simply prevent people under 30 from having intercourse? Disclaimer: I am definitely not defending the whole sex dealership thing, I am just wondering about what a 19 or 20 year old college student is supposed to do to behave legally. Edit: as a comparison, in Germany the age of consent is 14 afaik and there exist several additional laws to protect, e.g. 15 year olds from older people that have some kind of power over them (e.g., teachers).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dorfsmay 7y ago
  As the parent poster pointed out, the ethical ground of the law, or how the case would be treated abroad would have no baring in court. Regardless, I think Stallmam's mistake was to try to start a debate about Minsky's guilt and about statutory rape in the wrong place: a mailing list about Computer Science which includes both staff and students, especially given that he is not a random person, he is an authority figure when it comes to CS and at MIT. The debates might be valid but the place, and time (given everything going on about the connections between Epstein and the MIT) are what is wrong here.
  - virgilp 7y ago
    > The debates might be valid but the place, and time (given everything going on about the connections between Epstein and the MIT) are what is wrong here. Yes. And it's such a Stallman thing to do, to have a valid debate regardless of circumstances (whether it was the time or the place to do it). He takes his principles to unheard-of extremes.... but at least, he is a principled man. I wish we had more people like him, TBH. It's one of the persons I don't always agree with, but I always found it very easy to respect his position.

lizzard 7y ago

I would still find it grotesque if she had been 20. Minsky was behaving like a huge sleazebag.

anm89 7y ago

You are failing to parse this sentence correctly. He explicitly does not think she was willing. He thinks she was unwilling but was coerced to give the appearance of willingness and that the appearance of the two from Minskys point of view were the same. This isn't a subtle difference. You think he said almost exactly the opposite of what he said

smallmancontrov 7y ago
> This isn't a subtle difference. Thanks. You're right, it isn't, but the gaslighting had me doubting my own sanity for a moment there.
- mlyle 7y ago
  The thing is, this one statement is ... tolerable. A bit in poor taste as far as apologia goes. But then to have a long track record of disagreeing with age of consent; semantic arguments about pedophilia; treating women with disrespect and general creepiness-- it eventually gets to be too much. Any time you have to say this: > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. After having said this: > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. You've really screwed up, IMO. https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html That is, once you've fucked up with pedo-apologia a few too many times, maybe it's time to be really, really careful in what you say in defense of a colleague's possibly questionable sexual actions.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    How many disagreeable opinions do you personally allow someone to have before you believe it correct for people to try to coerce other people to stop doing business with them so you can silence them exactly?

eecc 7y ago

Identical? That’s not what the English language suggests.

zby 7y ago

He does not really say Minsky was innocent - he insists that what Minsky did should not be called 'assault' because this term is misleading. [Update] In another place he does argue that it is not evident that Minsky eventually did have sex with her - from the deposition it seems that she said she was directed to do it and then the lawyer asks where she went to do that and she answers that question, but it is quite probably that she misunderstood and answered the question 'where was she directed to go to do that', and there is a witness who says that Minsky turned her down. For me this is a fair argument.

Shinkei 7y ago

Unless of course it had happened in about half of Europe or many other places in the world where he wouldn't have even been charged with a crime... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe We are conflating 'law' and 'morals/ethics' in these arguments. If you act with strict adherence to the law, I'm assuming you've never jaywalked, committed piracy, ran a red light, etc. Oh, these are 'victimless crimes?' What about sex after having a couple drinks? Technically neither of you can consent under the law... a person has probably committed rape if their consensual partner had a 0.08 BAC. I think that our lack of a legal word other than 'rape' to describe 'statutory rape' does a disservice to those women are victims of forcible, violent sex acts. Although technically correct in many US jurisdictions, I think you would have a VERY hard time arguing that an 'adult' having consensual sex with a 17 year old being described as 'raping minors' is morally equivalent to the things that 'rape' is typically used to describe.

CathedralBorrow 7y ago
I remember some US politician making a similar point about "legitimate rape"

stickfigure 7y ago

The age of consent in Massachusetts is 16, as it is in the majority of US states. In fact, only 13 states put the age of consent at 18. While it might seem icky, sex between 17 and 75 year-olds isn't a crime.

kelnos 7y ago
It is in the US Virgin Islands, where this all took place, where the age of consent is 18.

koonsolo 7y ago

If you buy weed from a guy who robbed it from some other people, are you guilty of just buying the weed, or are you guilty of armed robbery? That is the distinction being made here, especially since in other parts of the world it's even legal to buy weed.

sintaxi 7y ago
As far as I'm aware buying stolen property isn't a strict liability crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal)
- koonsolo 7y ago
  That is seriously fucked up. From that wikipedia article: > a pharmacist supplied drugs to a patient who presented a forged doctor's prescription, but was convicted even though the House of Lords accepted that the pharmacist was blameless. > a 15-year-old boy was convicted of statutory rape of a child under 13, a crime under Section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The prosecution accepted the boy's claim that he had believed the 12-year-old girl to be 15, but he was nevertheless sentenced to 12 months' detention. When I read this, I'm very happy to live in a more sane part of the world.

bigbugbag 7y ago

It's sad when people are blinded by anger and cannot read a sentence properly and understand what is meant. I'll repost here a comment found under the original source that started this misinterpretation of words: I want to point out a problem: The article claims that Stallman states (…)that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. I think this is a misinterpretation of what he said; it doesn’t change things for the most part, but what he said is at least understandable, if still fairly awful. His claim, which I don’t really believe is well-founded (but that’s beside the point at this instant) was: (…)the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. (emphasis mine) That is, as far as I understand, he’s stating it’s most likely that Epstein coerced her into the situation, but that she led Minsky to believe it was of her own free will — and, while I (and I suspect many other people) don’t see where Stallman gets that idea, and it isn’t necessarily the case here, I would assume we can all agree that in such a case, the individual wouldn’t be guilty of rape (due to a lack of mens rea, that is, not knowing that the person was being coerced). In short: he never states that an enslaved child could be ‘entirely willing’, merely that someone lacking relevant information could believe an enslaved child was entirely willing (requiring them to neither know the individual is enslaved nor that they are a child — which is possible for someone who’s 17 years old)

sildur 7y ago

She was 17, and at that point in time 17 was above the age of consent in the US. It was changed to 18 around 2002. So it would have been completely legal back then.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
This is incorrect. The age of consent in the USA varies based on state, many being 16, some being 17 and 18. However, the age of consent for sex trafficking or prostitution is fixed at 18 by federal law.