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Ok. I am not sure that I should be writing this response...but with the madness prevalent in the world today, I don’t care anymore that this is on some random o

Ok. I am not sure that I should be writing this response...but with the madness prevalent in the world today, I don’t care anymore that this is on some random online nook..because I want to heard. To say that minors cannot consent is absolutely horrifying to me. I would have felt ‘raped’ of my free agency to choose if I had been told as a minor that I ‘cannot consent’. I was a minor. I consented. I was a sexual being just as I was a human being. Minors have to do non sexual adult things ALL the time. I still see adults well into their 40s and 50s who are immature compared to me when I was a minor. So age is a non-factor. While I DO acknowledge that child sexual abuse occurs as does trafficking and that paedophiles exist out there, when my thoughts and actions and consent when I was a minor is ERASED and my decisions deemed irrelevant, I don’t know how to feel about it. Reactions in the exact order of how I felt when I read ‘Minors cannot consent’ : Confusion. Anger. Understanding. Annoyance. Anger. Some minors do adult non sexual things and make adult non sexual decisions all the time..sometimes because they don’t have a choice. Why is it that when it comes to sexual consent, the same minor does not have any agency? I am trying to understand. It is difficult for me to accept that I am a non-being as a minor. Please don’t start a flame war. I really want to understand why this is so and communicate as to why the blanket ‘minors cant consent’ is disempowering and has not really made the world a better safer place. I also want to know what is a better and more effective solution to child sexual abuse(or any kind of sexual abuse) to replace ‘minors cannot consent’.

Qworg 7y ago
Minors cannot consent because they, in general, have a mental deficiency called "being young". They also, in general, are in the lowest power position of any potential relationship. It isn't that minors are non-beings - it is that they're not fully developed yet, so they need protections. Where we draw that line is up to the law and culture of any location, but it exists.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  It sucks to be the female of this species, let me tell you. When we are minors, we are mentally deficient to be sexual beings. When we are adults, we are also told that we have no control or reproductive choice over what we do with bodies. I hate to sound like this..because I don’t think of myself as a vocal feminist..I have always considered myself a rational being. With that hat on, it seems to me that the female human being has no choice or agency and their physical bodies are mere vessels for the male of the species to fornicate, procreate and to be generally unobtrusively abiding by the rules made by the opposite gender. That’s very upsetting to me.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    I take your point but the issues of consent and agency apply equally well if gender roles are reversed or mixed up any old how.
  - drblast 7y ago
    The power and experience imbalance on average is the problem. Minors can't consent not because there aren't intelligent, mature minors, but because on average they are less mature and experienced than an adult. I could tell a five year old that if they do something Santa will bring them gifts. That could be something completely reprehensible but they have no sense of right and wrong besides what I might tell them at that age. At age ten, they are more capable of deciding that on their own. As you get older you become better at that and more autonomous. But at a young age the only things you know are what adults tell you is true. That's an extreme amount of power the adult has. At some point we call people adults because we expect them to now have this responsibility and decide for themselves what they think is best for them because at a certain age we believe a majority of those young people should be autonomous. But that age is a guess and fairly arbitrary. Is it 17? 18? Probably somewhere around there. Is it 5? Nope. So you have to draw the line somewhere. It sucks if you're an incredibly mature 16 year old, but if you are, then waiting two years to have sex with someone much older than you shouldn't be an overwhelming burden if the social benefit is greater for those less mature or in potentially abusive situations.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    Why do you feel being a vocal feminist is at odds with being rational? I see no problem at all with a rational, vocal feminist. Many people enter the latter category after considering the issue with rationality. It would be insulting towards those people to assume they didn't enter into it rationally.
    - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
      I don’t know what to say. Anything I say will likely offend someone. So no reasons, just my opinion. That’s all.
- lacampbell 7y ago
  Minors cannot consent because they, in general, have a mental deficiency called "being young". Being young is not a mental deficiency. There are 17 year olds smarter than a legion of 70 year olds will ever be. Saying all young people have a mental deficiency has no bearing on reality. I don't event want to weigh in on the age of consent debate here, I've just always hated the constant shitting on young people and their intellect just because their young. I hated it when I was young and grown adults who weren't that smart were clearly threatened by me, and I still hate it now that I'm older.
  - asveikau 7y ago
    As a layperson I know no better than what I get in popular articles, however, my understanding is that the state of the art in neurology now says you are actually not fully formed mentally until your mid twenties. See: prefrontal cortex. So you can say that 17 year old exceeds some adults and it may be true, but current neurological science suggests that 17 year old has not yet reached their full mental capacity.
    - lacampbell 7y ago
      I'm not saying some is fully developed mentally as a teenager. But people constantly dismiss ideas or suggestions from people younger than them... because they are younger. I really wish I hadn't let 'grown ups'(family, public school teachers... people who were neither very smart nor successful) brow beat me into thinking I was stupider than I actually was.
      - asveikau 7y ago
        You are right. I guess the ideal is a bit of a balancing act. To embrace the advantages of youth - you are not so solidified, you can try things your elders might not dare or consider - but to remain humble and know that you have a lot of growth ahead, admitting that you haven't yet reached the peak. Suddenly I remember why teenage years were so hard.
- 007435throwaway 7y ago
  This is why charging minors as adults for murder is so troubling.
- trophycase 7y ago
  Nearly all of human history people were having sex, getting married, and having children while still being considered minors in the US today. Please let's not be ridiculous here.
jakelazaroff 7y ago
Minors cannot consent because they can be convinced by someone more mature. Here's a simple example: let's say a 20 year old wants to have sex with a two year old. Would you accept that the two year old consented because the 20 year old got them to say "yes"? The natural next question is, "where's the line?" A 20 year old and a two year old is obviously wrong, but a 25 year old and a 75 year old seems okay, if a bit weird. And yes, not every person the same age has the same amount of experience and maturity. But here's the thing: the law can't take that into account. The law needs a bright and clear line, so you can know how not to break it. And so even though there's not really a difference between 17 years 364 days vs. 18 years, one can consent to sex with an adult while the other cannot. Just like one day makes the difference between being able to vote, or drink, or get a driver's license.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  You didn’t address the case where two kids of the same age had sex. If the law cannot take that into account, both are responsible of a crime. Also many states have age difference exceptions as well (so an 18 year old can have sex with a consenting 17 year old); the federal government most definitely has this (4 year delta).
  - jakelazaroff 7y ago
    I'm not trying to comprehensively define what does and does not qualify as statutory rape, just explain the general logic behind "minors cannot consent".
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      But you misrepresented the legal mechanism as lacking any exceptions. That clearly isn’t true.
      - jakelazaroff 7y ago
        I'm sure there's plenty I've omitted; again, I'm explaining why "minors cannot consent", not trying to comprehensively describe statutory rape laws in the U.S.
nikdaheratik 7y ago
I think your response is very self centered at best. Feeling of being "`raped` of your free agency" is not enough to make a law unjust. It certainly doesn't outweigh the actual exploitation that was what led to these laws to be written to begin with. The bottom line is that your agency wasn't removed as a minor, you were just left with the same choice as many other minors, to obey the laws regarding drinking, smoking, pornography, etc. Or to break them in order to gain whatever you felt you were being denied. The laws were written to punish people who exploit minors, and the consequences of those crimes pretty much always fall on the adult in the situation (for good reason). When I was 17, and unable to vote or see certain movies, or 20 and unable to legally buy alcohol, I definitely felt like my freedom was abridged, but it didn't make the laws behind those immoral, it just made them slightly unfair. And that was for some low stakes stuff compared to sex trafficking or adult exploitation of children.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  Right. I hear you. Let’s work through this: 1. I don’t want anyone to be ‘raped’ by ‘free agency. I was speaking of consent. Can someone be raped while being a minor? Of course. Age has nothing to do with whether one can be raped. One can be raped as a minor just as a 50 y/o ..dare I say..male can be raped. Age also has nothing to do with sexual desire or urges either. A 12 year old boy can be horny and a post menopausal woman can snap shut at the rumor of sex. Rape should be about consent. Not age. 2. It is infantalization of young adults and taking away their instincts and consequently the ability to provide consent that is confounding to me. Biologically, sexual instinct begins way before puberty. 3. Creating ‘laws’ is a symptom of a society failing to manage itself. Shame and shunning used to work before. Every law automatically includes a legal loophole. Laws make society weaker, not stronger. It is the mass handover of power to the state..power we should have over ourselves as citizens and society. Human beings may be holding super computers in the palms of our hands, but our instincts are still cave man instincts. The human instinct that seeks sexual pleasure also seeks justice and revenge and disgust. How many rape victims have been screwed over by the ‘system’ that the law is supposed to uphold? 4. So something is wrong with the legal system that lets more people slip through the cracks by ‘failing’ them. I am not condoning rape. I am just saying that it is wrong that minors should be deemed ‘mentally deficient’ to give consent. 5. When my body says that I am ready for sex and the law says no, I am being denied my right. 6. Jewish infants are circumcised without their consent. Is that sexual assault or rape? Young girls suffer genital mutilation in the same name of religion. Why doesn’t the law step in and make it illegal? 7. Voting or alcohol consumption are not biological imperatives. Children are..to an extent..property of parents until they can fend for themselves. To curtail freedom to consent by law is actually also curtailing freedom of ownership of their instincts. When did the courts and the state start taking over the role of parents? 8. Let’s take Greta Thurnberg. She is a child instructing adults. Some of us are ok with that. Others aren’t. The same girl if she had consented to have sex with a non-minor while she was a minor in the USA would have been considered ‘mentally deficient’ to give consent. 9. I am not..for even a second..condoning rape. I am just concerned that the advent of an biological instinct when it is earlier than the age of consent is a handicap to a young adult. What are you thoughts and I hope I had clarified my position.
7952 7y ago
That does not mean it is ethical to accept willingness (or whatever) as evidence of consent or capacity for consent. Perhaps in cases like this it is simply impossible to know if that person has given consent. And these laws provide a boundary where that uncertainty becomes overwhelming. So whilst an underage person may have the maturity to give consent. A person in a position of power should never actually accept that.

Qworg 7y ago

Minors cannot consent because they, in general, have a mental deficiency called "being young". They also, in general, are in the lowest power position of any potential relationship. It isn't that minors are non-beings - it is that they're not fully developed yet, so they need protections. Where we draw that line is up to the law and culture of any location, but it exists.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago
It sucks to be the female of this species, let me tell you. When we are minors, we are mentally deficient to be sexual beings. When we are adults, we are also told that we have no control or reproductive choice over what we do with bodies. I hate to sound like this..because I don’t think of myself as a vocal feminist..I have always considered myself a rational being. With that hat on, it seems to me that the female human being has no choice or agency and their physical bodies are mere vessels for the male of the species to fornicate, procreate and to be generally unobtrusively abiding by the rules made by the opposite gender. That’s very upsetting to me.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  I take your point but the issues of consent and agency apply equally well if gender roles are reversed or mixed up any old how.
- drblast 7y ago
  The power and experience imbalance on average is the problem. Minors can't consent not because there aren't intelligent, mature minors, but because on average they are less mature and experienced than an adult. I could tell a five year old that if they do something Santa will bring them gifts. That could be something completely reprehensible but they have no sense of right and wrong besides what I might tell them at that age. At age ten, they are more capable of deciding that on their own. As you get older you become better at that and more autonomous. But at a young age the only things you know are what adults tell you is true. That's an extreme amount of power the adult has. At some point we call people adults because we expect them to now have this responsibility and decide for themselves what they think is best for them because at a certain age we believe a majority of those young people should be autonomous. But that age is a guess and fairly arbitrary. Is it 17? 18? Probably somewhere around there. Is it 5? Nope. So you have to draw the line somewhere. It sucks if you're an incredibly mature 16 year old, but if you are, then waiting two years to have sex with someone much older than you shouldn't be an overwhelming burden if the social benefit is greater for those less mature or in potentially abusive situations.
- asveikau 7y ago
  Why do you feel being a vocal feminist is at odds with being rational? I see no problem at all with a rational, vocal feminist. Many people enter the latter category after considering the issue with rationality. It would be insulting towards those people to assume they didn't enter into it rationally.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    I don’t know what to say. Anything I say will likely offend someone. So no reasons, just my opinion. That’s all.
lacampbell 7y ago
Minors cannot consent because they, in general, have a mental deficiency called "being young". Being young is not a mental deficiency. There are 17 year olds smarter than a legion of 70 year olds will ever be. Saying all young people have a mental deficiency has no bearing on reality. I don't event want to weigh in on the age of consent debate here, I've just always hated the constant shitting on young people and their intellect just because their young. I hated it when I was young and grown adults who weren't that smart were clearly threatened by me, and I still hate it now that I'm older.
- asveikau 7y ago
  As a layperson I know no better than what I get in popular articles, however, my understanding is that the state of the art in neurology now says you are actually not fully formed mentally until your mid twenties. See: prefrontal cortex. So you can say that 17 year old exceeds some adults and it may be true, but current neurological science suggests that 17 year old has not yet reached their full mental capacity.
  - lacampbell 7y ago
    I'm not saying some is fully developed mentally as a teenager. But people constantly dismiss ideas or suggestions from people younger than them... because they are younger. I really wish I hadn't let 'grown ups'(family, public school teachers... people who were neither very smart nor successful) brow beat me into thinking I was stupider than I actually was.
    - asveikau 7y ago
      You are right. I guess the ideal is a bit of a balancing act. To embrace the advantages of youth - you are not so solidified, you can try things your elders might not dare or consider - but to remain humble and know that you have a lot of growth ahead, admitting that you haven't yet reached the peak. Suddenly I remember why teenage years were so hard.
007435throwaway 7y ago
This is why charging minors as adults for murder is so troubling.
trophycase 7y ago
Nearly all of human history people were having sex, getting married, and having children while still being considered minors in the US today. Please let's not be ridiculous here.

jakelazaroff 7y ago

Minors cannot consent because they can be convinced by someone more mature. Here's a simple example: let's say a 20 year old wants to have sex with a two year old. Would you accept that the two year old consented because the 20 year old got them to say "yes"? The natural next question is, "where's the line?" A 20 year old and a two year old is obviously wrong, but a 25 year old and a 75 year old seems okay, if a bit weird. And yes, not every person the same age has the same amount of experience and maturity. But here's the thing: the law can't take that into account. The law needs a bright and clear line, so you can know how not to break it. And so even though there's not really a difference between 17 years 364 days vs. 18 years, one can consent to sex with an adult while the other cannot. Just like one day makes the difference between being able to vote, or drink, or get a driver's license.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
You didn’t address the case where two kids of the same age had sex. If the law cannot take that into account, both are responsible of a crime. Also many states have age difference exceptions as well (so an 18 year old can have sex with a consenting 17 year old); the federal government most definitely has this (4 year delta).
- jakelazaroff 7y ago
  I'm not trying to comprehensively define what does and does not qualify as statutory rape, just explain the general logic behind "minors cannot consent".
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    But you misrepresented the legal mechanism as lacking any exceptions. That clearly isn’t true.
    - jakelazaroff 7y ago
      I'm sure there's plenty I've omitted; again, I'm explaining why "minors cannot consent", not trying to comprehensively describe statutory rape laws in the U.S.

nikdaheratik 7y ago

I think your response is very self centered at best. Feeling of being "`raped` of your free agency" is not enough to make a law unjust. It certainly doesn't outweigh the actual exploitation that was what led to these laws to be written to begin with. The bottom line is that your agency wasn't removed as a minor, you were just left with the same choice as many other minors, to obey the laws regarding drinking, smoking, pornography, etc. Or to break them in order to gain whatever you felt you were being denied. The laws were written to punish people who exploit minors, and the consequences of those crimes pretty much always fall on the adult in the situation (for good reason). When I was 17, and unable to vote or see certain movies, or 20 and unable to legally buy alcohol, I definitely felt like my freedom was abridged, but it didn't make the laws behind those immoral, it just made them slightly unfair. And that was for some low stakes stuff compared to sex trafficking or adult exploitation of children.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago
Right. I hear you. Let’s work through this: 1. I don’t want anyone to be ‘raped’ by ‘free agency. I was speaking of consent. Can someone be raped while being a minor? Of course. Age has nothing to do with whether one can be raped. One can be raped as a minor just as a 50 y/o ..dare I say..male can be raped. Age also has nothing to do with sexual desire or urges either. A 12 year old boy can be horny and a post menopausal woman can snap shut at the rumor of sex. Rape should be about consent. Not age. 2. It is infantalization of young adults and taking away their instincts and consequently the ability to provide consent that is confounding to me. Biologically, sexual instinct begins way before puberty. 3. Creating ‘laws’ is a symptom of a society failing to manage itself. Shame and shunning used to work before. Every law automatically includes a legal loophole. Laws make society weaker, not stronger. It is the mass handover of power to the state..power we should have over ourselves as citizens and society. Human beings may be holding super computers in the palms of our hands, but our instincts are still cave man instincts. The human instinct that seeks sexual pleasure also seeks justice and revenge and disgust. How many rape victims have been screwed over by the ‘system’ that the law is supposed to uphold? 4. So something is wrong with the legal system that lets more people slip through the cracks by ‘failing’ them. I am not condoning rape. I am just saying that it is wrong that minors should be deemed ‘mentally deficient’ to give consent. 5. When my body says that I am ready for sex and the law says no, I am being denied my right. 6. Jewish infants are circumcised without their consent. Is that sexual assault or rape? Young girls suffer genital mutilation in the same name of religion. Why doesn’t the law step in and make it illegal? 7. Voting or alcohol consumption are not biological imperatives. Children are..to an extent..property of parents until they can fend for themselves. To curtail freedom to consent by law is actually also curtailing freedom of ownership of their instincts. When did the courts and the state start taking over the role of parents? 8. Let’s take Greta Thurnberg. She is a child instructing adults. Some of us are ok with that. Others aren’t. The same girl if she had consented to have sex with a non-minor while she was a minor in the USA would have been considered ‘mentally deficient’ to give consent. 9. I am not..for even a second..condoning rape. I am just concerned that the advent of an biological instinct when it is earlier than the age of consent is a handicap to a young adult. What are you thoughts and I hope I had clarified my position.

7952 7y ago

That does not mean it is ethical to accept willingness (or whatever) as evidence of consent or capacity for consent. Perhaps in cases like this it is simply impossible to know if that person has given consent. And these laws provide a boundary where that uncertainty becomes overwhelming. So whilst an underage person may have the maturity to give consent. A person in a position of power should never actually accept that.