7 ms·

> the kubler-ross grief model That model is really outdated, and was never meant to be the linear model it is so often presented as. I imagine you were speakin

by japhyr 7y ago

> the kubler-ross grief model That model is really outdated, and was never meant to be the linear model it is so often presented as. I imagine you were speaking lightly, but it's important to call this out. My wife is a grief counselor, and that is the clearest thing I've learned from her, and it's the single most important thing to share when people are dealing with grief. The prolonged use of this model in society and popular culture leads people to believe that we're supposed to progress through grief, and at some point "get over it". But grief is cyclical, and it's different for everyone. Environmental grief is real, and it's a pretty crazy time to be a parent. How do you help your kid understand that the world you brought them into is quickly collapsing?

fsloth 7y ago
"How do you help your kid understand that the world you brought them into is quickly collapsing?" I'd say as a parent it would be pretty irresponsible to say anything that would make the kid feel any sudden anxiety. We don't really talk about it. If our kids express their worry the we will say the truth - biomes are not doing too good. But we don't really consider it as some major doomsday looming over. Personally I was really anxious as a kid. I was really scared when I learned that one day sun will turn to red giant and destroy earth. Ditto about asteroids. The Amazon (30 years ago as kid I refused to eat at McDonalds for a while). And there were also actual bad things happening to people close to me - but you get the point. Easily distressed. As an adult, I see no way this existential anxiety would have done any good to me. So, as a parent I play it cool. And besides, we don't know what is going to happen. It's not going to be rainbows and sunshine ... but really. If you were with a kid on a train to Auschwitz, would you tell them me and him would soon be gassed to death, or lie to them it's all going to be fine. I'd lie.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- abootstrapper 7y ago
  I think it depends a lot on their age and maturity.
- eli_gottlieb 7y ago
  >So, as a parent I play it cool. And besides, we don't know what is going to happen. It's not going to be rainbows and sunshine ... but really. If you were with a kid on a train to Auschwitz, would you tell them me and him would soon be gassed to death, or lie to them it's all going to be fine. I'd lie. Well, at least you're admitting climate change is worse than the Holocaust.
  - fsloth 7y ago
    My point was that as a parent its not ones duty to explain to the child all the things they should be worried about, but to rather maintain their sense of safety. Please don't strawman me, it's not polite.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  To use your closing example, that sort of fatalistic passivity is how you end up on the train in the first place. It's better to fight for your freedom than to meekly accept it and everything else being taken away from you.
- sifar 7y ago
  Life is Beautiful :). I agree it is a dilemma. For some problems you can make them aware without raising the anxiety level. For some, you just have to hide/overcome your own fears and say that it is/things are alright. Sometimes, kids just need that reassurance from the parent, even if they know that things may not be alright.
eutropia 7y ago
Existential dread for the future is why my wife and I plan on adopting children instead of procreating. Tell everyone you know: plenty of kids need parents and you can be that for them without adding to the world population or bringing a new human into an uncertain future. It's bleak, but pragmatic.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
cagenut 7y ago
Thank you, good point. Re: kids, I have no idea. I can honestly only handle this with the level of detached analysis I do because I don't have kids. If i did... I would be seriously considering things that one shouldn't type onto message boards at this point. FWIW, in an attempt to be constructive. If you do rudimentary math around the size of the problem and the timeline to address it, the only person who has even come close is Bernie Sander's plan. This will require an investment, from the US alone, in the 10 - 100T order of magnitude range. Bernie's plan is 16T. Everyone else is in the single-digit Ts. So if you believe in science, math, and your childrens future... you kindof have to be like not just voting for but actively canvassing/phone-banking/campaigning for Bernie (assuming you're in the US).
- mobilefriendly 7y ago
  Bernie's plan is massive economic command and control from Washington. DC couldn't execute on Obama's stimulus spending and we know state-directed economies have been an environmental catastrophe (see: Soviet Union). A simple, aggressive carbon tax that captured the true externality of carbon emissions is the way to go-- bring economic incentives into alignment with climate goals.
  - Miner49er 7y ago
    To be fair, Bernie is a supporter of a carbon tax as well. In the past he has said it's "the most straight-forward and efficient strategy for quickly reducing greenhouse gas emissions".
  - CalRobert 7y ago
    And then you try phase 1 of a 287 phase carbon tax implementation and the gilet jaunes shut you down.
  - cagenut 7y ago
    I don't disagree, you and I could probably sit down and hammer out a much different plan based on our preferences. But neither of us are running for president in 2020 are we? This goes back to the denial thing being more about time and money than the abstract notion. We don't have the time to wait for better plans or options anymore. A bad plan this election cycle is vastly preferable to a better plan in 4 - 8 more years. There is a 16T command-and-control option on the table in 2020. There is no carbon tax and/or nuclear option on the table. We have to address reality not our preferences for a hypothetical ideal. Even if Bernie's plan turns out to be a disaster, that's a failure we need to get through as fast as possible so the public accepts a carbon tax funded nuclear renaissance as a plan B. Which again, may be your and my plan A, but its not where either the candidates or the electorate are TODAY.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
If anything, once they reach 12 or so, it'll more probably be the kids trying to help parents understand, and do something. Then trying to get to the rest of the adults with their Friday school strike. Ours are in their twenties now, but they and their friends have strikingly clear thoughts on who shafted them and what the future may have store for them. Optimism and like of the current political parties is in short supply.
gdubs 7y ago
Father of three here. I talk with them on honest terms about what’s broken with the way we’re doing things, and what we need to change to fix it. They don’t need to hear traumatizing tales of worst-case scenarios. At their young age (kinder/preschool), it’s enough for them to know something is good for the planet or bad for the planet. Kids that age can have a surprising innate sense of what’s fair and just, right and wrong.
jsingleton 7y ago
One method of support is to get out on the streets with them striking, starting this Friday.
imtringued 7y ago
What? Most parents don't even get that far. Usually it's the children that have to teach their parents.

by japhyr 7y ago

fsloth 7y ago

"How do you help your kid understand that the world you brought them into is quickly collapsing?" I'd say as a parent it would be pretty irresponsible to say anything that would make the kid feel any sudden anxiety. We don't really talk about it. If our kids express their worry the we will say the truth - biomes are not doing too good. But we don't really consider it as some major doomsday looming over. Personally I was really anxious as a kid. I was really scared when I learned that one day sun will turn to red giant and destroy earth. Ditto about asteroids. The Amazon (30 years ago as kid I refused to eat at McDonalds for a while). And there were also actual bad things happening to people close to me - but you get the point. Easily distressed. As an adult, I see no way this existential anxiety would have done any good to me. So, as a parent I play it cool. And besides, we don't know what is going to happen. It's not going to be rainbows and sunshine ... but really. If you were with a kid on a train to Auschwitz, would you tell them me and him would soon be gassed to death, or lie to them it's all going to be fine. I'd lie.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
abootstrapper 7y ago
I think it depends a lot on their age and maturity.
eli_gottlieb 7y ago
>So, as a parent I play it cool. And besides, we don't know what is going to happen. It's not going to be rainbows and sunshine ... but really. If you were with a kid on a train to Auschwitz, would you tell them me and him would soon be gassed to death, or lie to them it's all going to be fine. I'd lie. Well, at least you're admitting climate change is worse than the Holocaust.
- fsloth 7y ago
  My point was that as a parent its not ones duty to explain to the child all the things they should be worried about, but to rather maintain their sense of safety. Please don't strawman me, it's not polite.
anigbrowl 7y ago
To use your closing example, that sort of fatalistic passivity is how you end up on the train in the first place. It's better to fight for your freedom than to meekly accept it and everything else being taken away from you.
sifar 7y ago
Life is Beautiful :). I agree it is a dilemma. For some problems you can make them aware without raising the anxiety level. For some, you just have to hide/overcome your own fears and say that it is/things are alright. Sometimes, kids just need that reassurance from the parent, even if they know that things may not be alright.

eutropia 7y ago

Existential dread for the future is why my wife and I plan on adopting children instead of procreating. Tell everyone you know: plenty of kids need parents and you can be that for them without adding to the world population or bringing a new human into an uncertain future. It's bleak, but pragmatic.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

cagenut 7y ago

Thank you, good point. Re: kids, I have no idea. I can honestly only handle this with the level of detached analysis I do because I don't have kids. If i did... I would be seriously considering things that one shouldn't type onto message boards at this point. FWIW, in an attempt to be constructive. If you do rudimentary math around the size of the problem and the timeline to address it, the only person who has even come close is Bernie Sander's plan. This will require an investment, from the US alone, in the 10 - 100T order of magnitude range. Bernie's plan is 16T. Everyone else is in the single-digit Ts. So if you believe in science, math, and your childrens future... you kindof have to be like not just voting for but actively canvassing/phone-banking/campaigning for Bernie (assuming you're in the US).

mobilefriendly 7y ago
Bernie's plan is massive economic command and control from Washington. DC couldn't execute on Obama's stimulus spending and we know state-directed economies have been an environmental catastrophe (see: Soviet Union). A simple, aggressive carbon tax that captured the true externality of carbon emissions is the way to go-- bring economic incentives into alignment with climate goals.
- Miner49er 7y ago
  To be fair, Bernie is a supporter of a carbon tax as well. In the past he has said it's "the most straight-forward and efficient strategy for quickly reducing greenhouse gas emissions".
- CalRobert 7y ago
  And then you try phase 1 of a 287 phase carbon tax implementation and the gilet jaunes shut you down.
- cagenut 7y ago
  I don't disagree, you and I could probably sit down and hammer out a much different plan based on our preferences. But neither of us are running for president in 2020 are we? This goes back to the denial thing being more about time and money than the abstract notion. We don't have the time to wait for better plans or options anymore. A bad plan this election cycle is vastly preferable to a better plan in 4 - 8 more years. There is a 16T command-and-control option on the table in 2020. There is no carbon tax and/or nuclear option on the table. We have to address reality not our preferences for a hypothetical ideal. Even if Bernie's plan turns out to be a disaster, that's a failure we need to get through as fast as possible so the public accepts a carbon tax funded nuclear renaissance as a plan B. Which again, may be your and my plan A, but its not where either the candidates or the electorate are TODAY.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

If anything, once they reach 12 or so, it'll more probably be the kids trying to help parents understand, and do something. Then trying to get to the rest of the adults with their Friday school strike. Ours are in their twenties now, but they and their friends have strikingly clear thoughts on who shafted them and what the future may have store for them. Optimism and like of the current political parties is in short supply.

gdubs 7y ago

Father of three here. I talk with them on honest terms about what’s broken with the way we’re doing things, and what we need to change to fix it. They don’t need to hear traumatizing tales of worst-case scenarios. At their young age (kinder/preschool), it’s enough for them to know something is good for the planet or bad for the planet. Kids that age can have a surprising innate sense of what’s fair and just, right and wrong.

jsingleton 7y ago

One method of support is to get out on the streets with them striking, starting this Friday.

imtringued 7y ago

What? Most parents don't even get that far. Usually it's the children that have to teach their parents.