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I think this is a result of automotive technical progress slowing down. And I don't mean that in a bad way. For the past 100 years, we have been developing bet

by LeonM 7y ago

I think this is a result of automotive technical progress slowing down. And I don't mean that in a bad way. For the past 100 years, we have been developing better and better cars, with both breakthroughs and incremental improvements in the drivetrain, safety, comfort, reliability, etc. Now though, cars are consolidating. Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. For example: Volvo currently only produces 3 models of combustion engines. We have reached a point where numerous subsystems are just 'good enough' and require little more R&D. During the past 20 years or so, the software had to keep up with all the new tech coming out in the automotive world. Now that development of automotive hardware is slowing down, it is time to focus on the software for the long run. Tesla has been doing this for a while now. Their electric drivetrain is at point where there is more for them to gain in software than improvement of the hardware. For other car manufactures it is a bit harder to accept that, as they have been developing hardware technology for a long time. Edit: fixed my wrong example about Volvo, thanks to C1sc0cat

clouddrover 7y ago
> Their electric drivetrain is at point where there is more for them to gain in software than improvement of the hardware. Tesla is working on a new drivetrain for the Model S, Model X, and the Roadster 2: https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/elon-musk-promises-to-take-tesla-model-s-to-plaid-with-new-powertrain/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/elon-musk-promises-to-take...
- solarkraft 7y ago
  Archive link: http://archive.is/qc7Gi http://archive.is/qc7Gi Consider not linking to TechCrunch directly, because they make it virtually impossible to opt out of data collection.
codeulike 7y ago
I think you're mixing up ICE and electric, which is a mistake. You might have a point about ICE, but there's a ton of hardware improvements to come for EVs. >Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. Yeah and VW just spent years creating a completely new platform for EVs. Everyone else is going to need to do that in the next decade or so as well. > [Teslas] electric drivetrain is at point where there is more for them to gain in software than improvement of the hardware. Tesla are continuously coming up with hardware changes. Models S and X moved to a completely new 'Raven' drivetrain just back in April. Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet, which I guess is what you're thinking about.
- HNLurker2 7y ago
  >Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet, I would be scared if a software engineer would make the OS to confirm that I want to brake
  - codeulike 7y ago
    Brakes and steering remain mechanical edit: mainly I was thinking of Tesla here. obv there are exceptions
    - BrentOzar 7y ago
      > Brakes and steering remain mechanical The Infiniti Q50 has been steer-by-wire since 2014[1], and hybrids like the Toyota Prius have been brake-by-wire since 2010.[2] [1]: https://gizmodo.com/what-its-like-to-drive-infinitis-crazy-drive-by-wire-1501915995 https://gizmodo.com/what-its-like-to-drive-infinitis-crazy-d... [2]: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25563/the-audi-e-tron-brings-groundbreaking-electrohydraulic-brake-by-wire-technology-to-electric-cars https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25563/the-audi-e-tron-brings-g...
    - LeonM 7y ago
      Nope, steer-by-wire is already a thing. The Infiniti Q50 has it, its steering wheel is not mechanically attached to the wheels.
    - kozak 7y ago
      Electronic brakeforce distribution means that when the ABS module is not working, the car will brake worse than the same car with no ABS and purely mechanical brakeforce distribution.
      - codeulike 7y ago
        Better than nothing though
  - pjc50 7y ago
vgoh1 7y ago
I wholeheartedly disagree that automotive progress, on the mechanical side, has slowed down. The ride quality, handling, fit and finish, noise & vibe, chassis rigidity, fuel economy, reliability, have all been improving. Go back 10 years, go back 10 years before that, etc., and you will see incremental improvements. Beyond that, look at how much more "stuff" comes in cars today, but for the same amount of money. That means, as we cram more and more tech in a car, the mechanical bits are getting cheaper. The same is true for motorcycles. What is really going on, is the improvements in the mechanical design are just not as flashy.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Yeah, I cry every time I have to use some cheaper new rental car compared to my 15 year old bmw 3-series (not even m-series, just regular one with diesel engine on top of that). Sluggish, puddy garbage of an experience compared to pure joy I can experience with my own. I would say improvements were done to make things more cost-effective to increase margins, but not necessarily better cars per se. Other things are with furniture I obtained with an older apartment - amazingly well built, can still hold together well after 50+ years. It was not luxurious back then, but would be definitely be luxurious now.
  - oblio 7y ago
    1. Making things more accessible is not a crime, instead it's one of the biggest enablers of our age. See Henry Ford and Ford Model T. 2. Compare apples to apples. How does a new BMW 3-Series compare to your 15 year old one? My guess is, it probably compares favorably.
    - aeyes 7y ago
      Depends on what you are looking for. In a new 3-Series you can turn the steering wheel with your index finger, there is no manual transmission, you hear fake engine noise. The 15 year old car offers a completely different driving experience and he might prefer it over the bland, comfortable new car.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Volvo appear to have 3 main engines and multiple versions of the same engine. And I suspect that some ICE engines in use are still variants of pre war designs the Chevy Small Block v8 is a little newer starting mid 1950's
- tyingq 7y ago
  "suspect that some ICE engines in use are still variants of pre war designs the Chevy Small Block v8 is a little newer starting mid 1950's" Perhaps, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. The only pieces that remain somewhat as they were would be the block, crank, and rods. Overhead cams, variable valve timing, aluminum heads/blocks, electronic ignition, fuel injection, ECU, etc...are all newish. If some other design (rotary engines, for example) were better and made economic sense, they would have likely won out.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Just variants though the British Leyland O series dated back to well before ww2 and lasted into the 80's if not the 90's
    - tyingq 7y ago
      Which, as mentioned, was retrofitted with overhead cams, fuel injection, etc, decades after the WWII era.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        We are talking about the British car industry here, BL is what the the company that made the Mini couldn't work out what profit they where making on the dam thing.
- LeonM 7y ago
  Yes, you are right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_engines I thought they only produced the 2.0L 4 cylinder petrol in various configurations (turbo size, hybrid, non-hybrid). As it turns out they now also have a 3 cylinder engine.
zaroth 7y ago
This is wrong every time anyone has ever tried to claim it throughout human history for any piece of technology, so much so, that there must be a name for it.
- LeonM 7y ago
  I guess what I meant to say is: automotive tech is consolidating. Saying it is slowing down was a mistake and I definitely stepped on many toes by doing so.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    I love the fact that progress never stops. No matter how unimaginable it is that some piece of technology could be improved, it is not only improved upon but it will be dramatically reimagined and reinvented and iterated upon endlessly until it becomes entirely obsolete. Even when people say “XYZ is approaching the laws of physics for how good it can get” they often turn out wrong, like with solar panels there are several theoretical limits which have been shattered by using multi-layer approaches and mirrored or stacked panels, or ways to excite 2 electrons from one photon, that ultimately push the technology forward in one dimension or another. All I’m saying is, you’re in very good company.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Candles have not been pushed forwards much recently
  - zaroth 7y ago
    How much do you think is spent on perfume / scent science annually? Besides the core quality and variety of the scents, technology to prevent wick flare-ups, technology to alter burn rates, more economical mixtures of the wax, better composition of the jar to support cheaper shipping and less breakage. That’s not even to mention all the new competition to the venerable candle; non-burning LED candles, plug-in oil dispensers, time release mechanisms, vaporizers, etc.
naravara 7y ago
I can’t be the only one disappointed in this. Making cars at scale up to modern standards is really hard. Making great software is also really hard. I have serious doubts as to whether a company that does the former can have the culture, management practices, etc. to execute really well on the latter. The fact that Apple shut down its car division suggests there may have been some issues going the other way. I wish they’d have moved towards standardizing APIs and “controllers” throughout the automotive world and just encouraged after-market infotainment systems to fill the functionality gap. I just really don’t like that Infotainment ends up having to be a complicating factor in buying a car. It’s hard enough to pick one out that ticks all the functional boxes and feels nice to drive. But then suddenly you get cars that feel great, but neglected the interface design or had a slow UI and suddenly they’ve ruined it.
- kortex 7y ago
  I think a standard API would be great. "Here's the things the ecu should be willing to expose": basically all the usual EC2 reader registers, as read only. Here's a standard climate control API, which doesn't touch the ecu stack. And here's some mixins/ flexible RPCs so vendors can add custom functionality. Alas, this limits vendor lock in, so that's precisely why I think it's unlikely to happen.
WhompingWindows 7y ago
ICE engines are not innovating, it's true, but the context is not explained in your post. ICE engines are going to be replaced by electric motors, which are far simpler to maintain and source parts for, and are inherently (due to physics) much more energy-efficient. Given climate and potential revenues for new ICE R&D drying up, you're going to see all the research dollars in 1) batteries and electric drive-train, and 2) software like autonomy and infotainment and apps.
- koffiezet 7y ago
  > ICE engines are not innovating, it's true Guess true variable valve timing and electrical turbo's and are no innovations?
  - jerrysievert 7y ago
    if you call 1919 a recent innovation - VVT first appeared in ICE then, and made a resurgence in 1958 and again in the 1990's. electric superchargers have been around for a while as well, though not as prevalent due to the energy requirements. changes in the car electrical systems themselves have been allowing those to move forward, not innovation per se.
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    Both have been overtaken by events. They're not going to show up in many mainstream cars before ICE becomes obsolete. But TVVT might be very useful in applications where electric motors won't yet work. ICE airplanes, for example.
- potta_coffee 7y ago
  Mazda's new engine (skyactiv x) looks pretty damn innovative.

by LeonM 7y ago

clouddrover 7y ago

> Their electric drivetrain is at point where there is more for them to gain in software than improvement of the hardware. Tesla is working on a new drivetrain for the Model S, Model X, and the Roadster 2: https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/elon-musk-promises-to-take-tesla-model-s-to-plaid-with-new-powertrain/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/elon-musk-promises-to-take...

solarkraft 7y ago
Archive link: http://archive.is/qc7Gi http://archive.is/qc7Gi Consider not linking to TechCrunch directly, because they make it virtually impossible to opt out of data collection.

codeulike 7y ago

I think you're mixing up ICE and electric, which is a mistake. You might have a point about ICE, but there's a ton of hardware improvements to come for EVs. >Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. Yeah and VW just spent years creating a completely new platform for EVs. Everyone else is going to need to do that in the next decade or so as well. > [Teslas] electric drivetrain is at point where there is more for them to gain in software than improvement of the hardware. Tesla are continuously coming up with hardware changes. Models S and X moved to a completely new 'Raven' drivetrain just back in April. Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet, which I guess is what you're thinking about.

HNLurker2 7y ago
>Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet, I would be scared if a software engineer would make the OS to confirm that I want to brake
- codeulike 7y ago
  Brakes and steering remain mechanical edit: mainly I was thinking of Tesla here. obv there are exceptions
  - BrentOzar 7y ago
    > Brakes and steering remain mechanical The Infiniti Q50 has been steer-by-wire since 2014[1], and hybrids like the Toyota Prius have been brake-by-wire since 2010.[2] [1]: https://gizmodo.com/what-its-like-to-drive-infinitis-crazy-drive-by-wire-1501915995 https://gizmodo.com/what-its-like-to-drive-infinitis-crazy-d... [2]: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25563/the-audi-e-tron-brings-groundbreaking-electrohydraulic-brake-by-wire-technology-to-electric-cars https://www.thedrive.com/tech/25563/the-audi-e-tron-brings-g...
  - LeonM 7y ago
    Nope, steer-by-wire is already a thing. The Infiniti Q50 has it, its steering wheel is not mechanically attached to the wheels.
  - kozak 7y ago
    Electronic brakeforce distribution means that when the ABS module is not working, the car will brake worse than the same car with no ABS and purely mechanical brakeforce distribution.
    - codeulike 7y ago
      Better than nothing though
- pjc50 7y ago

vgoh1 7y ago

I wholeheartedly disagree that automotive progress, on the mechanical side, has slowed down. The ride quality, handling, fit and finish, noise & vibe, chassis rigidity, fuel economy, reliability, have all been improving. Go back 10 years, go back 10 years before that, etc., and you will see incremental improvements. Beyond that, look at how much more "stuff" comes in cars today, but for the same amount of money. That means, as we cram more and more tech in a car, the mechanical bits are getting cheaper. The same is true for motorcycles. What is really going on, is the improvements in the mechanical design are just not as flashy.

saiya-jin 7y ago
Yeah, I cry every time I have to use some cheaper new rental car compared to my 15 year old bmw 3-series (not even m-series, just regular one with diesel engine on top of that). Sluggish, puddy garbage of an experience compared to pure joy I can experience with my own. I would say improvements were done to make things more cost-effective to increase margins, but not necessarily better cars per se. Other things are with furniture I obtained with an older apartment - amazingly well built, can still hold together well after 50+ years. It was not luxurious back then, but would be definitely be luxurious now.
- oblio 7y ago
  1. Making things more accessible is not a crime, instead it's one of the biggest enablers of our age. See Henry Ford and Ford Model T. 2. Compare apples to apples. How does a new BMW 3-Series compare to your 15 year old one? My guess is, it probably compares favorably.
  - aeyes 7y ago
    Depends on what you are looking for. In a new 3-Series you can turn the steering wheel with your index finger, there is no manual transmission, you hear fake engine noise. The 15 year old car offers a completely different driving experience and he might prefer it over the bland, comfortable new car.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Volvo appear to have 3 main engines and multiple versions of the same engine. And I suspect that some ICE engines in use are still variants of pre war designs the Chevy Small Block v8 is a little newer starting mid 1950's

tyingq 7y ago
"suspect that some ICE engines in use are still variants of pre war designs the Chevy Small Block v8 is a little newer starting mid 1950's" Perhaps, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. The only pieces that remain somewhat as they were would be the block, crank, and rods. Overhead cams, variable valve timing, aluminum heads/blocks, electronic ignition, fuel injection, ECU, etc...are all newish. If some other design (rotary engines, for example) were better and made economic sense, they would have likely won out.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Just variants though the British Leyland O series dated back to well before ww2 and lasted into the 80's if not the 90's
  - tyingq 7y ago
    Which, as mentioned, was retrofitted with overhead cams, fuel injection, etc, decades after the WWII era.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      We are talking about the British car industry here, BL is what the the company that made the Mini couldn't work out what profit they where making on the dam thing.
LeonM 7y ago
Yes, you are right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_engines I thought they only produced the 2.0L 4 cylinder petrol in various configurations (turbo size, hybrid, non-hybrid). As it turns out they now also have a 3 cylinder engine.

zaroth 7y ago

This is wrong every time anyone has ever tried to claim it throughout human history for any piece of technology, so much so, that there must be a name for it.

LeonM 7y ago
I guess what I meant to say is: automotive tech is consolidating. Saying it is slowing down was a mistake and I definitely stepped on many toes by doing so.
- zaroth 7y ago
  I love the fact that progress never stops. No matter how unimaginable it is that some piece of technology could be improved, it is not only improved upon but it will be dramatically reimagined and reinvented and iterated upon endlessly until it becomes entirely obsolete. Even when people say “XYZ is approaching the laws of physics for how good it can get” they often turn out wrong, like with solar panels there are several theoretical limits which have been shattered by using multi-layer approaches and mirrored or stacked panels, or ways to excite 2 electrons from one photon, that ultimately push the technology forward in one dimension or another. All I’m saying is, you’re in very good company.
codeulike 7y ago
Candles have not been pushed forwards much recently
- zaroth 7y ago
  How much do you think is spent on perfume / scent science annually? Besides the core quality and variety of the scents, technology to prevent wick flare-ups, technology to alter burn rates, more economical mixtures of the wax, better composition of the jar to support cheaper shipping and less breakage. That’s not even to mention all the new competition to the venerable candle; non-burning LED candles, plug-in oil dispensers, time release mechanisms, vaporizers, etc.

naravara 7y ago

I can’t be the only one disappointed in this. Making cars at scale up to modern standards is really hard. Making great software is also really hard. I have serious doubts as to whether a company that does the former can have the culture, management practices, etc. to execute really well on the latter. The fact that Apple shut down its car division suggests there may have been some issues going the other way. I wish they’d have moved towards standardizing APIs and “controllers” throughout the automotive world and just encouraged after-market infotainment systems to fill the functionality gap. I just really don’t like that Infotainment ends up having to be a complicating factor in buying a car. It’s hard enough to pick one out that ticks all the functional boxes and feels nice to drive. But then suddenly you get cars that feel great, but neglected the interface design or had a slow UI and suddenly they’ve ruined it.

kortex 7y ago
I think a standard API would be great. "Here's the things the ecu should be willing to expose": basically all the usual EC2 reader registers, as read only. Here's a standard climate control API, which doesn't touch the ecu stack. And here's some mixins/ flexible RPCs so vendors can add custom functionality. Alas, this limits vendor lock in, so that's precisely why I think it's unlikely to happen.

WhompingWindows 7y ago

ICE engines are not innovating, it's true, but the context is not explained in your post. ICE engines are going to be replaced by electric motors, which are far simpler to maintain and source parts for, and are inherently (due to physics) much more energy-efficient. Given climate and potential revenues for new ICE R&D drying up, you're going to see all the research dollars in 1) batteries and electric drive-train, and 2) software like autonomy and infotainment and apps.

koffiezet 7y ago
> ICE engines are not innovating, it's true Guess true variable valve timing and electrical turbo's and are no innovations?
- jerrysievert 7y ago
  if you call 1919 a recent innovation - VVT first appeared in ICE then, and made a resurgence in 1958 and again in the 1990's. electric superchargers have been around for a while as well, though not as prevalent due to the energy requirements. changes in the car electrical systems themselves have been allowing those to move forward, not innovation per se.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  Both have been overtaken by events. They're not going to show up in many mainstream cars before ICE becomes obsolete. But TVVT might be very useful in applications where electric motors won't yet work. ICE airplanes, for example.
potta_coffee 7y ago
Mazda's new engine (skyactiv x) looks pretty damn innovative.