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China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans from leaving

329 points by onetimemanytime 7y ago

cheez 7y ago
I recently had an opportunity to go work in China for 6 months and declined for this reason (and others.)
- uwuhn 7y ago
  I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.
  - DeonPenny 7y ago
    They exit ban foreigners for unpaid debts. Apparently this extremely common
  - unreal37 7y ago
    Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view. China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation for things going on in world politics. Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1] Many people view these arrests at retaliation. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions-africa-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions...
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      China is a very safe country for Western people to visit. And if something happens to a Westerner authorities often go the extra mile to help. On the other hand, drug trafficking is punishable by death in China. If anything China has tended to be more lenient to Westerners convicted of drug trafficking compared to its own citizens. They are welcoming but they expect respect and no involvement in politics.
      - tomohawk 7y ago
        Can you name anything that the CCP would think is not political? They are great at making up excuses after the fact to justify what they do. If for whatever reason they want to arrest you, you can be sure they will have an excuse for it. What's the excuse for harvesting organs for political prisoners? Were they "asking for it"? A country that is run by people like this is not safe to visit. https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and-report-17th-june-2019/ https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and...
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        The reality is, obviously, that they do not want to arrest Western visitors. In fact they want Western visitors to get the best opinion of the country possible and go home telling every one how great China is. I fully agree: China is not a democratic country, and there is no independent judiciary, and crossing the wrong people while there is a bad idea (is there a country where it's a good idea, though?) But let's not claim that it is dangerous to visit or even to move to for work. It is very safe.
      - moron4hire 7y ago
        "No involvement in politics" is a very high barrier to cross for a lot of westerners. I would not want to personally test if retweets supporting Tibetan freedom counts as "political involvement".
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        How is it a high barrier? You're a visitor in a foreign country. Whatever your opinions are I think it is not too difficult to refrain from being involved in politics or sensitive issues. It's common sense of travelling to a foreign land, really.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        7y ago
    - uwuhn 7y ago
      I hate how arguing about this makes me look like a shill, but here goes: Do you think that he's innocent? If not, then I don't see what this has to do with my post. Going further, you're implying that China is giving excessive punishments to foreigners due to geopolitical relations. You are omitting that China isn't treating this specific example more harshly than they would treat a Chinese citizen (who can't buy their way out with money and/or influence). They are being given equal treatment. The article even says that foreigners are typically treated favorably compared to locals. I do agree that the relaxation of this favorable treatment is related to world politics, but the way your post is framed is disingenuous. I don't think my original post needs an explicit explanation that a random foreigner being ok in China assumes that you don't commit an obvious crime that would result in, at the very least, prison time or deportation in nearly any other country that won't let you bribe your way out.
      - mehhh 7y ago
        Sepentza and Laowhy86 (two youtubers that bike around China) have recently moved out of China due to worsening treatment of foriegners. If you don't have local family connections advocating for you, as a foriegner you will end up with worse outcomes when interacting with the police or passport system (they've done a few videos on their run-ins with the Chinese legal system).
        JCharante 7y ago
        It's also getting more expensive in China and they've mentioned that they can't work in China anymore (and have been relying on their videos as their sources of income). I'm not sure if that's because they changed from having work visas to marriage visas or because they are on tourist ones, but they both had a lot of work experience in China.
        044326throw 7y ago
        From what I’ve gathered, it’s not because it’s becoming more hostile, but rather they are no longer getting any privileges because of the complexion. “If you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
    - AJ007 7y ago
      I would suggest that in general, avoid8’g countries that have both questionable legal systems and the death penalty for things one would consider normal in their home country. This would encompass much of the Middle East but exclude Singapore, for example. It is unfair to single out China in this case, and, “Canadians” is a single person here, not even two.
    - amaccuish 7y ago
      So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering. Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk, so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway. So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign country.
      - mlyle 7y ago
        This is one of the issues with selective/discretional enforcement of laws. The original oppressive law is ignored, because "it's usually not enforced/used." And then whether it is used for oppression just comes down to whether the powers that be decide you need oppressing. Indeed, it's one of the criticisms of the war on drugs: that enforcement was tilted towards people that law enforcement, for one reason or another, didn't like (e.g. skin color).
      - JCharante 7y ago
        I don't really mind that people are getting punished for drug offences, but a scenario where someone is framed for it concerns me.
      - stjohnswarts 7y ago
        Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for minor drug offenses as a good place to start with proving their point.
        dwaltrip 7y ago
        Not saying he should have been executed, but smuggling 500 pounds of meth is not a minor offense.
        dehrmann 7y ago
        That will get you executed in Singapore, though the process for that happening is better understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard....
    - trhway 7y ago
      one hell of an appeal: "Initially, Schellenberg was seemingly the recipient of such leniency. On November 20, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for being an accessory to drug smuggling. But he appealed his conviction and at his retrial this week -- more than a month after top Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, accused by the United States of helping cover up violations of sanctions on Iran -- he was convicted of a primary role in the smuggling and was sentenced to death."
  - leongrado 7y ago
    This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.
    - darkhorn 7y ago
      If you have beard, if you look middle eastern (a bit dark skinned like from south Europe, may be Afro-European from south USA), originnaly from middle east (doesn't matter if you are rised and having western citizenship), having Turkic name (because of Uygurs), holding Turkish citizenship, looking suspicius, having pro Hong Kong ot pro Tibetian opinions you will be questioned by police, and you will have hard time finding hotels. For example this guy cannot find otel because he has Turkish citizenship. https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk also he is being questioned every time when he is being noticed by police.
      - GordonS 7y ago
        I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it's certainly not the norm. I have a beard, and pro-HK and pro-Tibetan opinions. I've visited various places in China several times - never had any issues. The customs/immigration officials are friendly, just the same as they are everywhere (except the US!). The few interactions I've had with the police were also friendly, just the same as I'd expect everywhere (except the US!).
        cheez 7y ago
        I'm guessing you're not brown. Key qualifier.
  - cheez 7y ago
    > Or you simply piss off the wrong person. I tend to do this regularly, so that was the other reason ;-)
  - _iyig 7y ago
    >Or you simply piss off the wrong person. This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges. Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on. If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs. Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game): https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg
    - wpdev_63 7y ago
      Don't know why this is being downvoted. This is known to happen, just ask any ex-pat in the community. If you visit china and you're someone they may not like or have a reason to be targeted(even for monetary gain) use extreme caution. People should be aware of this.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    For what value of 'probably' would you want to sit it out? Personally you couldn't pay me to go to places that do not have functional courts.
  - a3n 7y ago
    Or your company becomes involved in a conflict, making you a pawn. It ain't worth it.
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  It depends how one is to approach this. Sure, if you go full "Murrican" and have to rub into absolutely everybody's face how China is doing everything wrong and has an evil government and the US is just superior in every regard and how you're better than everybody around you because you're a westerner, you might have a bad time. Probably not an exit ban but just not a good time. If you'd however manage to somehow keep your shit together and just use the opportunity to get a glance at actual Chinese culture and how people there tick (in contrast to how typical western mainstream media likes to portray it) you might actually widen your horizon in a very valuable way. Not that you'd learn that China is super awesome and everything the media tells us is lies or something silly like that, but because it's first hand experiences which is just a thousand times more powerful and nuanced than anything you can ever read, or see on YouTube. Seeing how people both suffer or strive under or despite this form of government, and then comparing it to our society. Just makes you see it in a different way. I had the opportunity to go to China a couple times for a former job about ten years ago. One of the most fascinating things I ever experienced, and I still like to travel there every two-ish years or so.
  - Krasnol 7y ago
    - Generalization: "Western Media Bad" - Americans bad - Chinese Culture good - Everybody else lying. I'm sure this comment could help with a bad social credit.
    - iforgotpassword 7y ago
      Your reading comprehension skills seem to be severely lacking.
      - Krasnol 7y ago
        I understood your Ad pretty good. Just like I've saw your disclaimers spread here and there. No worries.
        iforgotpassword 7y ago
- narnianal 7y ago
  Are you born Chinese?
verroq 7y ago
The Americans cannot step into an US embassy and be carried out in a diplomatic bag?
- toast0 7y ago
  That's probably possible, but would likely make it very hard for those evacuated in that manner to return to China in the future. It's not tourists here, it's people who went to visit their family and are now stuck.
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  As far as I know, occurrences of diplomatic bags for carrying persons have been extremely, extremely rare (less than a dozen) and are forbidden.
  - sgift 7y ago
    > and are forbidden. That's correct - Article 27,4 of the "Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations": The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use. http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/convention...
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      I think the Nigerian embassy in London forgot to read that clause
      - mattst88 7y ago
        For those like me that have never heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikko_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikko_affair
    - gruez 7y ago
      Can't the embassy designate them as diplomatic couriers? Article 27.5 say they have immunity, and 27.6 says they can be assigned ad hoc.
anovikov 7y ago
The government must help it's citizens, especially as ban is unlawful and has nothing to do with any kind of criminal prosecution. One thing if they were arrested, but this... Why not just extract them?
- tln 7y ago
  Maybe because challenging China's sovereignty is risky? Just a guess. It's a good question. With the rapid growth of global tourism, there are a lot more citizens visiting different countries. I wonder if the state dept (or equivalent in other govts) are getting stretched. The article makes it clear that China is making up criminal cases to justify exit bans, as well.
  - anovikov 7y ago
    Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they mention anything. And denial after. What also works is making the most of these cases in PR sense. To show people that travel to China is risky. Must be a good way of impeding their economic growth and world influence, who wants to deal in a country like that.
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      > Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they mention anything. And denial after. Sounds like you're volunteering for that job.
    - gruez 7y ago
      >Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. I have a feeling that they're probably being monitored, so that probably won't go very well.
- simion314 7y ago
  Because the situation can be exploited, the government just needs to twist and push the story so the next actions related to China are motivated or citizen get distracted related to the real reasons behind the actions.
sverige 7y ago
Apparently people have forgotten that China is governed by a communist dictatorship, or they wouldn't be surprised by this behavior.
- est 7y ago
  That's why people invest in Vietnam instead. Oh wait...
- guelo 7y ago
  I would call it a capitalist dictatorship at this point.
  - sverige 7y ago
    Kleptocracy != Capitalism
    - AsyncAwait 7y ago
      Authoritarianism != Socialism
      - sverige 7y ago
        They call themselves communists and explicitly avow Marxism. If they're not socialists / communists, no one is.
        AsyncAwait 7y ago
        I was specifically responding to the claim that crony capitalism is not representative of capitalism and made a counterpoint of how you could defend almost any system that way. Nonetheless, it's pretty well accepted that China is more capitalist today than ever, that's not really controversial.
  - stretchwithme 7y ago
    Crony capitalist dictatorship.
green-eclipse 7y ago
This is really bad since China doesn't have a working court system to fall back on: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1...
- a3n 7y ago
  They do have a very effective working court system. The question is who it works for.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    I'd say it works very well for the communist party.
  - tmepdidjdj 7y ago
    It works for the politburo standing committee and Xi. The legal system are “stewards” for the Chinese government (according the white paper to Hong Kong). Hence you find so many people in China vying for government jobs because if you climb high enough, the law is below you. That is very dangerous because the only accountability is the person on top.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- robocat 7y ago
  The working court systems of Canada and the US arrested the Huawei finance chief Meng Wanzhou, who just happens to be the daughter of the founder of Huawei. That seemed like a very politically motivated arrest (she is still awaiting extradition): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858
  - chibg10 7y ago
    She also happens to be the CFO of Huawei who (allegedly) personally lied to international banks to circumvent US export controls? I'm not familiar with the court system in Canada, but criminal cases in the US take a long time. AFAIK Meng Wanzhou's delay is not unusual.
quaquaqua1 7y ago
>Thoudands of Chinese citizens have been subjected to the ban, including an unknown number of foreigners. A good question here would be if the "foreigners" as defined are, for example, Asian-Australians or Asian-Americans who are not Chinese passport holders but were raised by Chinese parents. I imagine that anyone can be accused of spying, but so far it seems it is mostly happening along racial lines. The reason I am asking is because my girlfriend is an H1B Chinese citizen and she is required to return to China next year to renew some paperwork. I want to come with her to visit the country and I'm curious what the (small) odds are that we would have a problem. Out of the many millions of people who visit China every year, it seems like you roughly run a 0.01% chance of having a problem, which is non-zero but also not terrible. Theoretically you have to piss off some authorities at a high level to warrant de facto house arrest.
- chrischen 7y ago
  Most Americans visit even North Korea as part of tour groups without issue... up until that kid decided to steal propaganda. These scary stories are vastly overblown. Barack Obama’s half brother lives in China... if nothing has happened to him frankly you are nowhere important enough for anyone to care.
  - mandarinqer 7y ago
    I don’t think this comparison is apt; although, I don’t necessarily disagree with your conclusion. Simply because China would think 10x as hard before making a move on a former presidents brother. Whereas, it’s a much easier decision to mess with a nobody.
  - zchrykng 7y ago
    Conversely, the Chinese government is probably willing to bend over backwards to make sure nothing happens to Obama's brother because of the political nightmare it would be for them.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dirtyid 7y ago
Alternate title: China doesn't give carte blanche to foreign fraudsters and spies. In context of Victor and Cynthia Lu, the siblings father is accused of embezzling 1.4 billion. From memory, millions of assets was put under their names in form of US real estate making them legally culpable. More importantly: >The Chinese Foreign Ministry defended the holding of the three family members, saying: “The people you mentioned all own legal and valid identity documents as Chinese citizens. Because they are suspected of economic crimes, they are restricted from exiting the country by the Chinese police in accordance with the law.” https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ba... China doesn't allow dual citizenship, Chinese nationals (including HKers) who naturalize abroad is suppose to renounce their Chinese citizenship. Many don't, choosing to travel on Chinese papers for expediency (no need for VISA) etc which subjects them to Chinese law. There's no extradition treaty to China which makes these dumb administration hacks backfire. The article also covered spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies exit bans. E: I think the greater story is that white expats in some countries no longer get preferential treatment due to trade war (US + Canada), and ex Chinese nationals are not safe from CPC reach just because they have a passport with no PRC extradition treaty, but especially if they're being dumb and travelling to China using Chinese papers they were suppose to renounce.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  Some of these exit bans might be in the situation you describe, but other ones are not. US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, who aren't under any known investigations have also been held back in exit bans. Also, holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable. The fact that these bans are only becoming more frequent now with the trade war is evidence that they aren't just a neutral exercise.
  - diego 7y ago
    Are they becoming more frequent or is the press mentioning them more often? Citations needed.
  - 7y ago
tomohawk 7y ago
Related: Canada Picks "Hostage Negotiator" As China Envoy https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hostage-negotiator-as-china-envoy/?_=3160406 https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hosta...
chiefalchemist 7y ago
When I was a kid China was always referred to as Communist China. As it became profitable and acceptable to do business with China the Communist prefix was conveniently dropped. "Exit bans" are unfortunate, but certainly no surprise to those who still remember to use the prefix.
peterwwillis 7y ago
Other side of that coin is America using entry bans as a political tool. Lots of families here in the US have family abroad that aren't allowed to enter the country and reunite, because banning an entire country due to "terrorism" looks good at the polls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_status_of_restrictions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_... Who is downvoting this? Explain yourselves.
- umvi 7y ago
  That's... not really the same. One of them is Hotel California, the other you are inconvenienced for where your family reunions will happen.
  - peterwwillis 7y ago
    One of them is Hotel California, the other is "I would like to see my mother again and have her meet my children, but she isn't allowed in the country," or "my brother is stuck in a war-torn country and I can't get him out." It's not just an inconvenience, it's families that are forcibly separated for totally bullshit reasons. (In addition it's "I can't take a job in the US", "I can't support my family members in time of crisis", and so on) Here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban-trump-how-it-works.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban... - The number of people who fall under the ban exceeds 135 million - The majority are in the five Muslim-majority nations, led by Iran, with a population of more than 80 million "The executive order "affects the lives and families" of at least 187 Google employees" (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200-google-employees-are-affected-by-trumps-immigrati https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200...) https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09/414802/the-real-effect-of-trumps-muslim-ban/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09... "Dr. Suha Abushamma, 26, is an internal medicine resident at the Cleveland Clinic. Although she had an H-1B visa for workers in “specialty occupations,” which should allow her to enter, live, and work in the United States, Abushamma was not permitted to enter the country. Abushamma holds a passport from Sudan, which is one of the banned nations." "Sahar Algonaimi, 60, was detained for five hours at Chicago O’Hare International Airport following the issuance of the executive order. Algonaimi, a Syrian national, had traveled to the United States from Saudi Arabia to visit her 76-year-old mother who is recovering from surgery for breast cancer. Although she held a U.S. visa and had planned to stay in the country for a week, she was she was forced to board a flight to the United Arab Emirates instead of being allowed to clear customs." "“I needed someone to be with me here,” Ulayyet said through tears at the hospital. “How am I going to teach my kids and tell them that this is a free country? How can we tell my kids that we have to take care of each other?”" You don't think these sound similar to the OP?
jl2718 7y ago
These cases clearly have nothing to do with the current president or any American policy. If the author has no rational justification for their position, I will assume they have a dishonest purpose, and therefore I should be inclined to believe and act the opposite way they want me to.
kchoudhu 7y ago
Most Americans have forgotten that the first rule of international travel is not to overtly fuck with totalitarian regimes. With the unipolar world of the last thirty years coming to a messy end, that's a lesson we're going to have internalize again. Be humble, be careful with the risks you take abroad, and steer clear of overtly dangerous places.
- narnianal 7y ago
  The basic idea is to not fuck with any local system/law/culture if you're abroad.
  - jMyles 7y ago
    I don't agree with the word "any" here. There's nothing wrong with taking a disruptive approach to oppression when you witness it, but calculating your position relative to the system/law/culture so that you are able to live freely to act justly another day - that can be the tricky part. I remember seeing hotel staff act in an overtly and disgustingly racist way in Cape Town, South Africa. As a tourist, hotel guest, American, and white person, I knew that I had all of the systemic privilege on my side. So I had no problem assisting the underprivileged people in that situation. Now, with a powerful totalitarian system like China, it might be a different calculation.
    - rossdavidh 7y ago
      If you are taking a disruptive approach to the government (at any level) of a place you are traveling, you should expect to have a high risk of getting arrested, and not necessarily being given a fair trial. If you are morally so opposed to the situation that you believe this to be a sacrifice worth making, ok then. But you shouldn't be surprised when it happens. Also, it is not too hard to imagine a foreigner's "disruptive behavior" backfiring in terms of the impact on the locals' attitude towards the policy in question. Knowing whether or not your disruptive behavior will be a useful prod to change, or provoke a backlash against foreign meddling that actually reinforces the system in question, takes a lot of nuanced knowledge of the local society, which a foreigner will usually not have.
keiferski 7y ago
I call it “crying wolf in reverse”: The problem with being a totalitarian state that falsely imprisons people on a regular basis is that you’ve lost all moral authority when it comes to arresting people for actual crimes. If you’ve falsified evidence, conducted show trials and made a mockery of rule of law before, why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time?
- MadSudaca 7y ago
  In reverse because China is the wolf.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time? Because it does not matter to anybody. Saddam didn't have the WMDs, the evidence was manufactured. Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs? On the international level, power matters. Political power, military power, economic power, not your reputation.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs? When was the last time that US used the WMDs excuse to drag allies into war?
    - YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago
      less than 20 years ago and that's very recent in war terms. the same (failed) excuse wont be used again because its always better to fabricate something new thats not related to the last one which turned out to be not true.
      - IllogicalLogic 7y ago
        Let's be honest, they pivoted from WMD to the much larger and vaguer umbrella of "terrorist" or "terrorist supporter". This has allowed the USA and its allies to indiscriminately kill millions since the Iraq invasion (and rake in billions in weapons deals). It's always funny when we ignore the mass murderer in the room and instead focus on China's quite measured response to crime.
udfalkso 7y ago
Anecdote: I visited China in July for 3 weeks. I'm an American. They let me leave.
mirimir 7y ago
The discussion is mostly about whether China is justified, and whether the US does similar things. What interests me is the fact that, as pretty much an American, I just don't understand Chinese culture. The TFA doesn't discuss Chinese public opinion about these cases. But in analogy to the Hong Kong situation, I suspect that the public isn't sympathetic. Of course, from an American perspective, social control and propaganda obviously account for that. But what if those weren't the main factors? Is it really true that individuals don't matter so much in Chinese culture? Except mainly how they affect society, that is. But maybe that's far too simplistic. And of course, I have similar questions about what American culture is really about. Or even if there is such a thing.
- Leary 7y ago
  Educated people from western countries have political norms that they think are universal but are actually highly contingent on the Enlightenment. These values such as freedom and democracy have some limited play in China but are not esteemed to the same extent, especially after Communist ideologies became dominant after 1949. Rather than considering liberalism as a normative end to pursue, Chinese were more likely to treat it as way to pursue national wealth and power.

cheez 7y ago

I recently had an opportunity to go work in China for 6 months and declined for this reason (and others.)

uwuhn 7y ago
I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.
- DeonPenny 7y ago
  They exit ban foreigners for unpaid debts. Apparently this extremely common
- unreal37 7y ago
  Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view. China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation for things going on in world politics. Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1] Many people view these arrests at retaliation. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions-africa-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions...
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    China is a very safe country for Western people to visit. And if something happens to a Westerner authorities often go the extra mile to help. On the other hand, drug trafficking is punishable by death in China. If anything China has tended to be more lenient to Westerners convicted of drug trafficking compared to its own citizens. They are welcoming but they expect respect and no involvement in politics.
    - tomohawk 7y ago
      Can you name anything that the CCP would think is not political? They are great at making up excuses after the fact to justify what they do. If for whatever reason they want to arrest you, you can be sure they will have an excuse for it. What's the excuse for harvesting organs for political prisoners? Were they "asking for it"? A country that is run by people like this is not safe to visit. https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and-report-17th-june-2019/ https://chinatribunal.com/china-tribunal-final-judgement-and...
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        The reality is, obviously, that they do not want to arrest Western visitors. In fact they want Western visitors to get the best opinion of the country possible and go home telling every one how great China is. I fully agree: China is not a democratic country, and there is no independent judiciary, and crossing the wrong people while there is a bad idea (is there a country where it's a good idea, though?) But let's not claim that it is dangerous to visit or even to move to for work. It is very safe.
    - moron4hire 7y ago
      "No involvement in politics" is a very high barrier to cross for a lot of westerners. I would not want to personally test if retweets supporting Tibetan freedom counts as "political involvement".
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        How is it a high barrier? You're a visitor in a foreign country. Whatever your opinions are I think it is not too difficult to refrain from being involved in politics or sensitive issues. It's common sense of travelling to a foreign land, really.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        7y ago
  - uwuhn 7y ago
    I hate how arguing about this makes me look like a shill, but here goes: Do you think that he's innocent? If not, then I don't see what this has to do with my post. Going further, you're implying that China is giving excessive punishments to foreigners due to geopolitical relations. You are omitting that China isn't treating this specific example more harshly than they would treat a Chinese citizen (who can't buy their way out with money and/or influence). They are being given equal treatment. The article even says that foreigners are typically treated favorably compared to locals. I do agree that the relaxation of this favorable treatment is related to world politics, but the way your post is framed is disingenuous. I don't think my original post needs an explicit explanation that a random foreigner being ok in China assumes that you don't commit an obvious crime that would result in, at the very least, prison time or deportation in nearly any other country that won't let you bribe your way out.
    - mehhh 7y ago
      Sepentza and Laowhy86 (two youtubers that bike around China) have recently moved out of China due to worsening treatment of foriegners. If you don't have local family connections advocating for you, as a foriegner you will end up with worse outcomes when interacting with the police or passport system (they've done a few videos on their run-ins with the Chinese legal system).
      - JCharante 7y ago
        It's also getting more expensive in China and they've mentioned that they can't work in China anymore (and have been relying on their videos as their sources of income). I'm not sure if that's because they changed from having work visas to marriage visas or because they are on tourist ones, but they both had a lot of work experience in China.
      - 044326throw 7y ago
        From what I’ve gathered, it’s not because it’s becoming more hostile, but rather they are no longer getting any privileges because of the complexion. “If you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
  - AJ007 7y ago
    I would suggest that in general, avoid8’g countries that have both questionable legal systems and the death penalty for things one would consider normal in their home country. This would encompass much of the Middle East but exclude Singapore, for example. It is unfair to single out China in this case, and, “Canadians” is a single person here, not even two.
  - amaccuish 7y ago
    So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering. Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk, so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway. So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign country.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      This is one of the issues with selective/discretional enforcement of laws. The original oppressive law is ignored, because "it's usually not enforced/used." And then whether it is used for oppression just comes down to whether the powers that be decide you need oppressing. Indeed, it's one of the criticisms of the war on drugs: that enforcement was tilted towards people that law enforcement, for one reason or another, didn't like (e.g. skin color).
    - JCharante 7y ago
      I don't really mind that people are getting punished for drug offences, but a scenario where someone is framed for it concerns me.
    - stjohnswarts 7y ago
      Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for minor drug offenses as a good place to start with proving their point.
      - dwaltrip 7y ago
        Not saying he should have been executed, but smuggling 500 pounds of meth is not a minor offense.
        dehrmann 7y ago
        That will get you executed in Singapore, though the process for that happening is better understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard....
  - trhway 7y ago
    one hell of an appeal: "Initially, Schellenberg was seemingly the recipient of such leniency. On November 20, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for being an accessory to drug smuggling. But he appealed his conviction and at his retrial this week -- more than a month after top Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, accused by the United States of helping cover up violations of sanctions on Iran -- he was convicted of a primary role in the smuggling and was sentenced to death."
- leongrado 7y ago
  This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.
  - darkhorn 7y ago
    If you have beard, if you look middle eastern (a bit dark skinned like from south Europe, may be Afro-European from south USA), originnaly from middle east (doesn't matter if you are rised and having western citizenship), having Turkic name (because of Uygurs), holding Turkish citizenship, looking suspicius, having pro Hong Kong ot pro Tibetian opinions you will be questioned by police, and you will have hard time finding hotels. For example this guy cannot find otel because he has Turkish citizenship. https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk https://youtu.be/2SvHsU7jwwk also he is being questioned every time when he is being noticed by police.
    - GordonS 7y ago
      I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but it's certainly not the norm. I have a beard, and pro-HK and pro-Tibetan opinions. I've visited various places in China several times - never had any issues. The customs/immigration officials are friendly, just the same as they are everywhere (except the US!). The few interactions I've had with the police were also friendly, just the same as I'd expect everywhere (except the US!).
      - cheez 7y ago
        I'm guessing you're not brown. Key qualifier.
- cheez 7y ago
  > Or you simply piss off the wrong person. I tend to do this regularly, so that was the other reason ;-)
- _iyig 7y ago
  >Or you simply piss off the wrong person. This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges. Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on. If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs. Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game): https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg
  - wpdev_63 7y ago
    Don't know why this is being downvoted. This is known to happen, just ask any ex-pat in the community. If you visit china and you're someone they may not like or have a reason to be targeted(even for monetary gain) use extreme caution. People should be aware of this.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  For what value of 'probably' would you want to sit it out? Personally you couldn't pay me to go to places that do not have functional courts.
- a3n 7y ago
  Or your company becomes involved in a conflict, making you a pawn. It ain't worth it.
iforgotpassword 7y ago
It depends how one is to approach this. Sure, if you go full "Murrican" and have to rub into absolutely everybody's face how China is doing everything wrong and has an evil government and the US is just superior in every regard and how you're better than everybody around you because you're a westerner, you might have a bad time. Probably not an exit ban but just not a good time. If you'd however manage to somehow keep your shit together and just use the opportunity to get a glance at actual Chinese culture and how people there tick (in contrast to how typical western mainstream media likes to portray it) you might actually widen your horizon in a very valuable way. Not that you'd learn that China is super awesome and everything the media tells us is lies or something silly like that, but because it's first hand experiences which is just a thousand times more powerful and nuanced than anything you can ever read, or see on YouTube. Seeing how people both suffer or strive under or despite this form of government, and then comparing it to our society. Just makes you see it in a different way. I had the opportunity to go to China a couple times for a former job about ten years ago. One of the most fascinating things I ever experienced, and I still like to travel there every two-ish years or so.
- Krasnol 7y ago
  - Generalization: "Western Media Bad" - Americans bad - Chinese Culture good - Everybody else lying. I'm sure this comment could help with a bad social credit.
  - iforgotpassword 7y ago
    Your reading comprehension skills seem to be severely lacking.
    - Krasnol 7y ago
      I understood your Ad pretty good. Just like I've saw your disclaimers spread here and there. No worries.
      - iforgotpassword 7y ago
narnianal 7y ago
Are you born Chinese?

verroq 7y ago

The Americans cannot step into an US embassy and be carried out in a diplomatic bag?

toast0 7y ago
That's probably possible, but would likely make it very hard for those evacuated in that manner to return to China in the future. It's not tourists here, it's people who went to visit their family and are now stuck.
alexis_fr 7y ago
As far as I know, occurrences of diplomatic bags for carrying persons have been extremely, extremely rare (less than a dozen) and are forbidden.
- sgift 7y ago
  > and are forbidden. That's correct - Article 27,4 of the "Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations": The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use. http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/convention...
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    I think the Nigerian embassy in London forgot to read that clause
    - mattst88 7y ago
      For those like me that have never heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikko_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikko_affair
  - gruez 7y ago
    Can't the embassy designate them as diplomatic couriers? Article 27.5 say they have immunity, and 27.6 says they can be assigned ad hoc.

anovikov 7y ago

The government must help it's citizens, especially as ban is unlawful and has nothing to do with any kind of criminal prosecution. One thing if they were arrested, but this... Why not just extract them?

tln 7y ago
Maybe because challenging China's sovereignty is risky? Just a guess. It's a good question. With the rapid growth of global tourism, there are a lot more citizens visiting different countries. I wonder if the state dept (or equivalent in other govts) are getting stretched. The article makes it clear that China is making up criminal cases to justify exit bans, as well.
- anovikov 7y ago
  Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they mention anything. And denial after. What also works is making the most of these cases in PR sense. To show people that travel to China is risky. Must be a good way of impeding their economic growth and world influence, who wants to deal in a country like that.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    > Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they mention anything. And denial after. Sounds like you're volunteering for that job.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. I have a feeling that they're probably being monitored, so that probably won't go very well.
simion314 7y ago
Because the situation can be exploited, the government just needs to twist and push the story so the next actions related to China are motivated or citizen get distracted related to the real reasons behind the actions.

sverige 7y ago

Apparently people have forgotten that China is governed by a communist dictatorship, or they wouldn't be surprised by this behavior.

est 7y ago
That's why people invest in Vietnam instead. Oh wait...
guelo 7y ago
I would call it a capitalist dictatorship at this point.
- sverige 7y ago
  Kleptocracy != Capitalism
  - AsyncAwait 7y ago
    Authoritarianism != Socialism
    - sverige 7y ago
      They call themselves communists and explicitly avow Marxism. If they're not socialists / communists, no one is.
      - AsyncAwait 7y ago
        I was specifically responding to the claim that crony capitalism is not representative of capitalism and made a counterpoint of how you could defend almost any system that way. Nonetheless, it's pretty well accepted that China is more capitalist today than ever, that's not really controversial.
- stretchwithme 7y ago
  Crony capitalist dictatorship.

green-eclipse 7y ago

This is really bad since China doesn't have a working court system to fall back on: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1...

a3n 7y ago
They do have a very effective working court system. The question is who it works for.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  I'd say it works very well for the communist party.
- tmepdidjdj 7y ago
  It works for the politburo standing committee and Xi. The legal system are “stewards” for the Chinese government (according the white paper to Hong Kong). Hence you find so many people in China vying for government jobs because if you climb high enough, the law is below you. That is very dangerous because the only accountability is the person on top.
deleted 7y ago
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robocat 7y ago
The working court systems of Canada and the US arrested the Huawei finance chief Meng Wanzhou, who just happens to be the daughter of the founder of Huawei. That seemed like a very politically motivated arrest (she is still awaiting extradition): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858
- chibg10 7y ago
  She also happens to be the CFO of Huawei who (allegedly) personally lied to international banks to circumvent US export controls? I'm not familiar with the court system in Canada, but criminal cases in the US take a long time. AFAIK Meng Wanzhou's delay is not unusual.

quaquaqua1 7y ago

>Thoudands of Chinese citizens have been subjected to the ban, including an unknown number of foreigners. A good question here would be if the "foreigners" as defined are, for example, Asian-Australians or Asian-Americans who are not Chinese passport holders but were raised by Chinese parents. I imagine that anyone can be accused of spying, but so far it seems it is mostly happening along racial lines. The reason I am asking is because my girlfriend is an H1B Chinese citizen and she is required to return to China next year to renew some paperwork. I want to come with her to visit the country and I'm curious what the (small) odds are that we would have a problem. Out of the many millions of people who visit China every year, it seems like you roughly run a 0.01% chance of having a problem, which is non-zero but also not terrible. Theoretically you have to piss off some authorities at a high level to warrant de facto house arrest.

chrischen 7y ago
Most Americans visit even North Korea as part of tour groups without issue... up until that kid decided to steal propaganda. These scary stories are vastly overblown. Barack Obama’s half brother lives in China... if nothing has happened to him frankly you are nowhere important enough for anyone to care.
- mandarinqer 7y ago
  I don’t think this comparison is apt; although, I don’t necessarily disagree with your conclusion. Simply because China would think 10x as hard before making a move on a former presidents brother. Whereas, it’s a much easier decision to mess with a nobody.
- zchrykng 7y ago
  Conversely, the Chinese government is probably willing to bend over backwards to make sure nothing happens to Obama's brother because of the political nightmare it would be for them.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dirtyid 7y ago

Alternate title: China doesn't give carte blanche to foreign fraudsters and spies. In context of Victor and Cynthia Lu, the siblings father is accused of embezzling 1.4 billion. From memory, millions of assets was put under their names in form of US real estate making them legally culpable. More importantly: >The Chinese Foreign Ministry defended the holding of the three family members, saying: “The people you mentioned all own legal and valid identity documents as Chinese citizens. Because they are suspected of economic crimes, they are restricted from exiting the country by the Chinese police in accordance with the law.” https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ba... China doesn't allow dual citizenship, Chinese nationals (including HKers) who naturalize abroad is suppose to renounce their Chinese citizenship. Many don't, choosing to travel on Chinese papers for expediency (no need for VISA) etc which subjects them to Chinese law. There's no extradition treaty to China which makes these dumb administration hacks backfire. The article also covered spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies exit bans. E: I think the greater story is that white expats in some countries no longer get preferential treatment due to trade war (US + Canada), and ex Chinese nationals are not safe from CPC reach just because they have a passport with no PRC extradition treaty, but especially if they're being dumb and travelling to China using Chinese papers they were suppose to renounce.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
Some of these exit bans might be in the situation you describe, but other ones are not. US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, who aren't under any known investigations have also been held back in exit bans. Also, holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable. The fact that these bans are only becoming more frequent now with the trade war is evidence that they aren't just a neutral exercise.
- diego 7y ago
  Are they becoming more frequent or is the press mentioning them more often? Citations needed.
- 7y ago

tomohawk 7y ago

Related: Canada Picks "Hostage Negotiator" As China Envoy https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hostage-negotiator-as-china-envoy/?_=3160406 https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hosta...

chiefalchemist 7y ago

When I was a kid China was always referred to as Communist China. As it became profitable and acceptable to do business with China the Communist prefix was conveniently dropped. "Exit bans" are unfortunate, but certainly no surprise to those who still remember to use the prefix.

peterwwillis 7y ago

Other side of that coin is America using entry bans as a political tool. Lots of families here in the US have family abroad that aren't allowed to enter the country and reunite, because banning an entire country due to "terrorism" looks good at the polls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_status_of_restrictions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_... Who is downvoting this? Explain yourselves.

umvi 7y ago
That's... not really the same. One of them is Hotel California, the other you are inconvenienced for where your family reunions will happen.
- peterwwillis 7y ago
  One of them is Hotel California, the other is "I would like to see my mother again and have her meet my children, but she isn't allowed in the country," or "my brother is stuck in a war-torn country and I can't get him out." It's not just an inconvenience, it's families that are forcibly separated for totally bullshit reasons. (In addition it's "I can't take a job in the US", "I can't support my family members in time of crisis", and so on) Here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban-trump-how-it-works.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban... - The number of people who fall under the ban exceeds 135 million - The majority are in the five Muslim-majority nations, led by Iran, with a population of more than 80 million "The executive order "affects the lives and families" of at least 187 Google employees" (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200-google-employees-are-affected-by-trumps-immigrati https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200...) https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09/414802/the-real-effect-of-trumps-muslim-ban/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09... "Dr. Suha Abushamma, 26, is an internal medicine resident at the Cleveland Clinic. Although she had an H-1B visa for workers in “specialty occupations,” which should allow her to enter, live, and work in the United States, Abushamma was not permitted to enter the country. Abushamma holds a passport from Sudan, which is one of the banned nations." "Sahar Algonaimi, 60, was detained for five hours at Chicago O’Hare International Airport following the issuance of the executive order. Algonaimi, a Syrian national, had traveled to the United States from Saudi Arabia to visit her 76-year-old mother who is recovering from surgery for breast cancer. Although she held a U.S. visa and had planned to stay in the country for a week, she was she was forced to board a flight to the United Arab Emirates instead of being allowed to clear customs." "“I needed someone to be with me here,” Ulayyet said through tears at the hospital. “How am I going to teach my kids and tell them that this is a free country? How can we tell my kids that we have to take care of each other?”" You don't think these sound similar to the OP?

jl2718 7y ago

These cases clearly have nothing to do with the current president or any American policy. If the author has no rational justification for their position, I will assume they have a dishonest purpose, and therefore I should be inclined to believe and act the opposite way they want me to.

kchoudhu 7y ago

Most Americans have forgotten that the first rule of international travel is not to overtly fuck with totalitarian regimes. With the unipolar world of the last thirty years coming to a messy end, that's a lesson we're going to have internalize again. Be humble, be careful with the risks you take abroad, and steer clear of overtly dangerous places.

narnianal 7y ago
The basic idea is to not fuck with any local system/law/culture if you're abroad.
- jMyles 7y ago
  I don't agree with the word "any" here. There's nothing wrong with taking a disruptive approach to oppression when you witness it, but calculating your position relative to the system/law/culture so that you are able to live freely to act justly another day - that can be the tricky part. I remember seeing hotel staff act in an overtly and disgustingly racist way in Cape Town, South Africa. As a tourist, hotel guest, American, and white person, I knew that I had all of the systemic privilege on my side. So I had no problem assisting the underprivileged people in that situation. Now, with a powerful totalitarian system like China, it might be a different calculation.
  - rossdavidh 7y ago
    If you are taking a disruptive approach to the government (at any level) of a place you are traveling, you should expect to have a high risk of getting arrested, and not necessarily being given a fair trial. If you are morally so opposed to the situation that you believe this to be a sacrifice worth making, ok then. But you shouldn't be surprised when it happens. Also, it is not too hard to imagine a foreigner's "disruptive behavior" backfiring in terms of the impact on the locals' attitude towards the policy in question. Knowing whether or not your disruptive behavior will be a useful prod to change, or provoke a backlash against foreign meddling that actually reinforces the system in question, takes a lot of nuanced knowledge of the local society, which a foreigner will usually not have.

keiferski 7y ago

I call it “crying wolf in reverse”: The problem with being a totalitarian state that falsely imprisons people on a regular basis is that you’ve lost all moral authority when it comes to arresting people for actual crimes. If you’ve falsified evidence, conducted show trials and made a mockery of rule of law before, why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time?

MadSudaca 7y ago
In reverse because China is the wolf.
luckylion 7y ago
> why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time? Because it does not matter to anybody. Saddam didn't have the WMDs, the evidence was manufactured. Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs? On the international level, power matters. Political power, military power, economic power, not your reputation.
- gruez 7y ago
  >Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs? When was the last time that US used the WMDs excuse to drag allies into war?
  - YeahSureWhyNot 7y ago
    less than 20 years ago and that's very recent in war terms. the same (failed) excuse wont be used again because its always better to fabricate something new thats not related to the last one which turned out to be not true.
    - IllogicalLogic 7y ago
      Let's be honest, they pivoted from WMD to the much larger and vaguer umbrella of "terrorist" or "terrorist supporter". This has allowed the USA and its allies to indiscriminately kill millions since the Iraq invasion (and rake in billions in weapons deals). It's always funny when we ignore the mass murderer in the room and instead focus on China's quite measured response to crime.

udfalkso 7y ago

Anecdote: I visited China in July for 3 weeks. I'm an American. They let me leave.

mirimir 7y ago

The discussion is mostly about whether China is justified, and whether the US does similar things. What interests me is the fact that, as pretty much an American, I just don't understand Chinese culture. The TFA doesn't discuss Chinese public opinion about these cases. But in analogy to the Hong Kong situation, I suspect that the public isn't sympathetic. Of course, from an American perspective, social control and propaganda obviously account for that. But what if those weren't the main factors? Is it really true that individuals don't matter so much in Chinese culture? Except mainly how they affect society, that is. But maybe that's far too simplistic. And of course, I have similar questions about what American culture is really about. Or even if there is such a thing.

Leary 7y ago
Educated people from western countries have political norms that they think are universal but are actually highly contingent on the Enlightenment. These values such as freedom and democracy have some limited play in China but are not esteemed to the same extent, especially after Communist ideologies became dominant after 1949. Rather than considering liberalism as a normative end to pursue, Chinese were more likely to treat it as way to pursue national wealth and power.