5 ms·

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a

by wyclif 7y ago

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a while. I started out as a system administrator writing a lot of bash and Perl scripts, taking care of mail servers and DNS, and doing a lot of corporate backups. That job is now called "DevOps", and I've made the transition. I now work in Python 3, Django, Ruby, JavaScript, Kubernetes, and AWS. I haven't been standing still, and I firmly believe the key to avoiding career stagnation is to be constantly learning and educating yourself and never being satisfied with the status quo. I've been fortunate, as a remote worker, that I haven't really experienced severe negative consequences (at least not yet...knock on wood) from age discrimination. Yet the shadow of ageism is always there, and I hear stories from friends about incredibly insensitive and cringe-worthy age discrimination. I'm content with my role as a "grey beard" (I'm actually clean-shaven now, but back in the day I had a huge red UNIX hacker beard). But I'm not happy with the way the tech industry treats older workers. I'm supportive of legal protections for older workers in tech. We are not all dinosaurs. Many of us know, for instance, how to sniff out fads from real forward leaps, and we have deep industry experience that can be leveraged by employers open-minded enough to hire us.

tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
I've never worked with a significantly older person (in tech anyways), but I would happily lean on them for sniffing out fads. Even in my 30's, it's kinda hard to tell what's a fad and what's not. I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility, and I can't fathom having the kind of arrogance to discount the experience and wisdom that comes with age.
- aswanson 7y ago
  programming is a daily exercise in epistemic humility You are wise beyond your years, young padawan.
- alxlaz 7y ago
  > I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. I've observed this first-hand while doing interviews. Even in companies that insist there's no bias against age, and even with people who insist they don't have any bias, there is nonetheless a preference for hiring: * People who don't have a clear understanding of how much their work is worth and therefore have difficulties negotiating a high salary * People who openly display enthusiasm -- and this is especially true among HR and higher-level managers, who can't really discern technical expertise so they look at things they can assess themselves. Enthusiasm is obviously good to have but it's no substitute for expertise, commitment and discipline, all of which are hard to evaluate if you have little or no technical experience. * People who have no strong personal commitments and don't mind doing overtime on a short notice * People who are enthusiastic about new technology, because they enable ambitious team leaders' and managers' experiments and pet projects instead of skeptically cautioning against them. * People who have no trouble buying into a new company's culture, even when it's of questionable value (i.e. people who can quickly assimilate and integrate in even the most toxic working environments, as opposed to people who can recognize one, understand what kind of damage it does, and quickly go fsck it, this ain't worth it!) Experienced programmers know their worth and aren't twenty year-olds that you can walk all over if you have a fancy title. So there are a lot of hiring managers who would be okay with hiring a 50-year old candidate, but have difficulty finding a 50-year old candidate that they'd be willing to hire.
  - tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
    Wow that's a fascinating breakdown, I never thought about it with that level of granularity.
    - sanderjd 7y ago
      All of that rings true to me, but I think there's a corollary that if you're willing to pay people in accordance with the value of their depth of experience, and you can evaluate expertise without being biased by enthusiasm, and you can build a stable team that executes on a plan instead of requiring tons of overtime to scramble from emergency to emergency, and if you value choosing the right technologies for a problem over following trends, and if you don't have a toxic culture, then there is a treasure trove of people out there with experience and expertise, who you have less competition to hire.
- phkahler 7y ago
  On fads. In spite of the hype, I believe Rust is not a fad. It's going to be doing extremely well in 50 years. I cant condense the background that goes into that statement into a single comment. But a few other languages are valuable too and will be for a while.
  - twic 7y ago
    I think the ideas that Rust is demonstrating are valuable, and will be around in 50 years. I'm not sure if Rust will be. I sort of hope it won't be, because that implies it'll be replaced by an even better realisation of the same ideas.
- gilbetron 7y ago
  > Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility I'm 48, been programming since I was 8, professionally since I was 16, and I feel the same way.
- bradleyjg 7y ago
  There's two different, but related, things going on: 1) Is regular, ordinary age discrimination. This is why tech companies won't hire people starting second careers into entry level programming roles. 2) The widespread notion that more than about 5 years programming experience is not valuable, maybe even counterproductive. (Firm specific knowledge is a different story, tech companies do value that.) Hence all the "senior" programmers with 3 years experience. -- The first one is illegal and in my opinion immoral. The second one to my mind an empirical question--it doesn't seem to be true based on my experiences and observations, but I'd be willing to have my mind changed by evidence.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > The first one is illegal Partially illegal. I'm 39, and it is perfectly legal for companies to tell me they won't hire me because I'm too old. Next year it becomes illegal for them to do so.
    - bmarquez 7y ago
      They'll never actually admit it though even if it was legal though. Companies would prefer to say they're looking for a better fit or something equally vague.
    - wyclif 7y ago
      When you say "Next year it becomes illegal for them to do so", what specifically are you referring to? I didn't catch the reference.
      - mjm65 7y ago
        US law (ADEA) that forbids discrimination for 40 and over.
shams93 7y ago
I'm pushing 50 the older I get the shorter the engagements get until I have lost everything and live with my mom with no income. Its really brutal I gave up on having relationships and family to do a couple decades worth of unpaid overtime and my payback is being thrown out of society.
- pimmen 7y ago
  That sounds really awful. I wish you well and hope you keep your head up. You never know if it could turn around.
- scoobyyabbadoo 7y ago
  I'm glad your mom is still alive though
mech422 7y ago
Same here - over 50, remote worker - no complaints... I hear about age discrimination on here a lot, but I can't honestly say I know any coder impacted by it. Even my friends in silicon valley are still employed in their 50s. I wonder if its a regional thing? Areas with high demand for coders can't afford to throw out good candidates because they have grey hair?

by wyclif 7y ago

tenaciousDaniel 7y ago

I've never worked with a significantly older person (in tech anyways), but I would happily lean on them for sniffing out fads. Even in my 30's, it's kinda hard to tell what's a fad and what's not. I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility, and I can't fathom having the kind of arrogance to discount the experience and wisdom that comes with age.

aswanson 7y ago
programming is a daily exercise in epistemic humility You are wise beyond your years, young padawan.
alxlaz 7y ago
> I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. I've observed this first-hand while doing interviews. Even in companies that insist there's no bias against age, and even with people who insist they don't have any bias, there is nonetheless a preference for hiring: * People who don't have a clear understanding of how much their work is worth and therefore have difficulties negotiating a high salary * People who openly display enthusiasm -- and this is especially true among HR and higher-level managers, who can't really discern technical expertise so they look at things they can assess themselves. Enthusiasm is obviously good to have but it's no substitute for expertise, commitment and discipline, all of which are hard to evaluate if you have little or no technical experience. * People who have no strong personal commitments and don't mind doing overtime on a short notice * People who are enthusiastic about new technology, because they enable ambitious team leaders' and managers' experiments and pet projects instead of skeptically cautioning against them. * People who have no trouble buying into a new company's culture, even when it's of questionable value (i.e. people who can quickly assimilate and integrate in even the most toxic working environments, as opposed to people who can recognize one, understand what kind of damage it does, and quickly go fsck it, this ain't worth it!) Experienced programmers know their worth and aren't twenty year-olds that you can walk all over if you have a fancy title. So there are a lot of hiring managers who would be okay with hiring a 50-year old candidate, but have difficulty finding a 50-year old candidate that they'd be willing to hire.
- tenaciousDaniel 7y ago
  Wow that's a fascinating breakdown, I never thought about it with that level of granularity.
  - sanderjd 7y ago
    All of that rings true to me, but I think there's a corollary that if you're willing to pay people in accordance with the value of their depth of experience, and you can evaluate expertise without being biased by enthusiasm, and you can build a stable team that executes on a plan instead of requiring tons of overtime to scramble from emergency to emergency, and if you value choosing the right technologies for a problem over following trends, and if you don't have a toxic culture, then there is a treasure trove of people out there with experience and expertise, who you have less competition to hire.
phkahler 7y ago
On fads. In spite of the hype, I believe Rust is not a fad. It's going to be doing extremely well in 50 years. I cant condense the background that goes into that statement into a single comment. But a few other languages are valuable too and will be for a while.
- twic 7y ago
  I think the ideas that Rust is demonstrating are valuable, and will be around in 50 years. I'm not sure if Rust will be. I sort of hope it won't be, because that implies it'll be replaced by an even better realisation of the same ideas.
gilbetron 7y ago
> Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility I'm 48, been programming since I was 8, professionally since I was 16, and I feel the same way.
bradleyjg 7y ago
There's two different, but related, things going on: 1) Is regular, ordinary age discrimination. This is why tech companies won't hire people starting second careers into entry level programming roles. 2) The widespread notion that more than about 5 years programming experience is not valuable, maybe even counterproductive. (Firm specific knowledge is a different story, tech companies do value that.) Hence all the "senior" programmers with 3 years experience. -- The first one is illegal and in my opinion immoral. The second one to my mind an empirical question--it doesn't seem to be true based on my experiences and observations, but I'd be willing to have my mind changed by evidence.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > The first one is illegal Partially illegal. I'm 39, and it is perfectly legal for companies to tell me they won't hire me because I'm too old. Next year it becomes illegal for them to do so.
  - bmarquez 7y ago
    They'll never actually admit it though even if it was legal though. Companies would prefer to say they're looking for a better fit or something equally vague.
  - wyclif 7y ago
    When you say "Next year it becomes illegal for them to do so", what specifically are you referring to? I didn't catch the reference.
    - mjm65 7y ago
      US law (ADEA) that forbids discrimination for 40 and over.

shams93 7y ago

I'm pushing 50 the older I get the shorter the engagements get until I have lost everything and live with my mom with no income. Its really brutal I gave up on having relationships and family to do a couple decades worth of unpaid overtime and my payback is being thrown out of society.

pimmen 7y ago
That sounds really awful. I wish you well and hope you keep your head up. You never know if it could turn around.
scoobyyabbadoo 7y ago
I'm glad your mom is still alive though

mech422 7y ago

Same here - over 50, remote worker - no complaints... I hear about age discrimination on here a lot, but I can't honestly say I know any coder impacted by it. Even my friends in silicon valley are still employed in their 50s. I wonder if its a regional thing? Areas with high demand for coders can't afford to throw out good candidates because they have grey hair?