5 ms·

Many places have only dealt with physical security at the ground level: fences, ID checkpoints, etc. Drones just bypassing everything by flying over have to for

Many places have only dealt with physical security at the ground level: fences, ID checkpoints, etc. Drones just bypassing everything by flying over have to force places to rethink that strategy.

mschuster91 7y ago
There isn't much to defend against a drone dropping a thermite charge or other bomblet on a facility - if the drone flies high enough even ordinary firearms or EMP/jammer weapons don't work any more.
- anovikov 7y ago
  But ECM will. Russians reliably defend their airbases in Syria against stubbornly repeated drone strikes.
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    Do you have any more details on this? (I have just realised this whole area of new military capabilities has passed me by and am trying to catch up)
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    ECM won't do anything if the drone is automated and optically or dead reckoning guided...
    - anovikov 7y ago
      Nope, it will physically fry the electronics (that's a directed antenna...), unless electronics are seriously MIL-SPEC, properly shielded, and such, which is beyond the capacity and level of sophistication of most terrorist groups. You probably can't defeat a manned aircraft or a RQ-4 like this, but some cheap drone assembled in a garage by Palestinians, Houthi or other KGB-sponsored group, easily.
      - baybal2 7y ago
        I seriously doubt your claim, and whether you know anything about basics of electronics engineering. You can dissipate kilowatts of RF energy just with structural components of a UAV, so physically frying a UAV is completely out of the question. Near all of aviation composites come with some copper or aluminium mesh exactly for EMI, and lighting strike protection these days. And for protecting antenna inputs, there are god knows how much circuits even a high schoolers can do.
        maxerickson 7y ago
        What's the delivered power of experimental directed RF weapons?
        baybal2 7y ago
        The most over the top guess will be 1kw over a drone sized target at 100m Russia has an ICBM sized vacuum tube capable of 1gw+ of omnidirectional output in a short impulse. But get guess how inverse square law works with it. Even with such monster will only get you <1kw at a kilometre. You can further imagine it being used with directional antenna, and so, but it will not change things much
baybal2 7y ago
Add to that that conventional air defence doesn't work either. Even the most poorly built drone can fly low and slow enough to be invulnerable to anything but human aimed AA guns, but for that one can just double the numbers
- bretpiatt 7y ago
  Real world example of Zerg rush strategy. It will require whole new types of air defense. Military strategists are actively thinking through this and some high risk private or public sector industrial targets are as well. Statements like, "Just use EMP or signal jammers." do not take into account the collateral damage and impacts EMP or broad wavelength frequency jamming have either short or long term on the defenders.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Indeed. And if you use aerial surveillance photos (google maps) and build a star positioning sensor, you can do dead reckoning with no external radio dependencies. It's how the missiles do it, btw. Or you can include GPS with sanity checks. Then only subtle deviation attacks would work.
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      A downward facing IR camera, together with an IR map of the terrain and dead reckoning is pretty much invulnerable to any kind of jamming. Putting the electronics in a box protects against EMP attacks too. Defending against that is hard!
  - tomatotomato37 7y ago
    It's interesting how AA development could to go back to WWII type flak cannon type systems designed to grenade the air with as much shards of metal as possible
- Tepix 7y ago
  I think it will be pretty much impossible to stop fast low flying drones from the ground. Perhaps other drones are the solution.
mantap 7y ago
What I don't understand is that while multicopter drones may only be a decade old, RC planes have been around forever. Why are people only just noticing the problem?
- evgen 7y ago
  Guidance. Until quite recently an RC plane required line of sight to both plane and target and even then accuracy would be limited. Now, with common off the shelf parts, open source software, and wireless cell/satellite networks that have almost global availability anyone can create a guidance package that rivals ones that were only available to a handful of nation-states twenty years ago.
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    Indeed, there are people on youtube with planes on autopilot that fly miles away going back at least a decade or so. You can purchase the plans for a UAV you can cut yourself on a CNC/cutter. Flying Squirrel Gemini V-2[1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FPVREVIEWS/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/FPVREVIEWS/videos
  - Tepix 7y ago
    „Recently“ is not that recent really. This tech has been available for more than a decade. The lack of attacks is an interesting phenomenon that points to a knowledge gap or availability of technology in the terrorist bubbles.
    - rebuilder 7y ago
      I'm not sure that's the only explanation. Maybe the goals and mindset of currently active terrorist organisations haven't been compatible with drone usage. For example, does not having martyrs fit in with the traditional narrative of Islamic terrorism? Was drone warfare really an option before ISIL?
      - londons_explore 7y ago

Many places have only dealt with physical security at the ground level: fences, ID checkpoints, etc. Drones just bypassing everything by flying over have to force places to rethink that strategy.

mschuster91 7y ago

There isn't much to defend against a drone dropping a thermite charge or other bomblet on a facility - if the drone flies high enough even ordinary firearms or EMP/jammer weapons don't work any more.

anovikov 7y ago
But ECM will. Russians reliably defend their airbases in Syria against stubbornly repeated drone strikes.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  Do you have any more details on this? (I have just realised this whole area of new military capabilities has passed me by and am trying to catch up)
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  ECM won't do anything if the drone is automated and optically or dead reckoning guided...
  - anovikov 7y ago
    Nope, it will physically fry the electronics (that's a directed antenna...), unless electronics are seriously MIL-SPEC, properly shielded, and such, which is beyond the capacity and level of sophistication of most terrorist groups. You probably can't defeat a manned aircraft or a RQ-4 like this, but some cheap drone assembled in a garage by Palestinians, Houthi or other KGB-sponsored group, easily.
    - baybal2 7y ago
      I seriously doubt your claim, and whether you know anything about basics of electronics engineering. You can dissipate kilowatts of RF energy just with structural components of a UAV, so physically frying a UAV is completely out of the question. Near all of aviation composites come with some copper or aluminium mesh exactly for EMI, and lighting strike protection these days. And for protecting antenna inputs, there are god knows how much circuits even a high schoolers can do.
      - maxerickson 7y ago
        What's the delivered power of experimental directed RF weapons?
        baybal2 7y ago
        The most over the top guess will be 1kw over a drone sized target at 100m Russia has an ICBM sized vacuum tube capable of 1gw+ of omnidirectional output in a short impulse. But get guess how inverse square law works with it. Even with such monster will only get you <1kw at a kilometre. You can further imagine it being used with directional antenna, and so, but it will not change things much

baybal2 7y ago

Add to that that conventional air defence doesn't work either. Even the most poorly built drone can fly low and slow enough to be invulnerable to anything but human aimed AA guns, but for that one can just double the numbers

bretpiatt 7y ago
Real world example of Zerg rush strategy. It will require whole new types of air defense. Military strategists are actively thinking through this and some high risk private or public sector industrial targets are as well. Statements like, "Just use EMP or signal jammers." do not take into account the collateral damage and impacts EMP or broad wavelength frequency jamming have either short or long term on the defenders.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Indeed. And if you use aerial surveillance photos (google maps) and build a star positioning sensor, you can do dead reckoning with no external radio dependencies. It's how the missiles do it, btw. Or you can include GPS with sanity checks. Then only subtle deviation attacks would work.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    A downward facing IR camera, together with an IR map of the terrain and dead reckoning is pretty much invulnerable to any kind of jamming. Putting the electronics in a box protects against EMP attacks too. Defending against that is hard!
- tomatotomato37 7y ago
  It's interesting how AA development could to go back to WWII type flak cannon type systems designed to grenade the air with as much shards of metal as possible
Tepix 7y ago
I think it will be pretty much impossible to stop fast low flying drones from the ground. Perhaps other drones are the solution.

mantap 7y ago

What I don't understand is that while multicopter drones may only be a decade old, RC planes have been around forever. Why are people only just noticing the problem?

evgen 7y ago
Guidance. Until quite recently an RC plane required line of sight to both plane and target and even then accuracy would be limited. Now, with common off the shelf parts, open source software, and wireless cell/satellite networks that have almost global availability anyone can create a guidance package that rivals ones that were only available to a handful of nation-states twenty years ago.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  Indeed, there are people on youtube with planes on autopilot that fly miles away going back at least a decade or so. You can purchase the plans for a UAV you can cut yourself on a CNC/cutter. Flying Squirrel Gemini V-2[1] https://www.youtube.com/user/FPVREVIEWS/videos https://www.youtube.com/user/FPVREVIEWS/videos
- Tepix 7y ago
  „Recently“ is not that recent really. This tech has been available for more than a decade. The lack of attacks is an interesting phenomenon that points to a knowledge gap or availability of technology in the terrorist bubbles.
  - rebuilder 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's the only explanation. Maybe the goals and mindset of currently active terrorist organisations haven't been compatible with drone usage. For example, does not having martyrs fit in with the traditional narrative of Islamic terrorism? Was drone warfare really an option before ISIL?
    - londons_explore 7y ago