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My guilty pleasure is to binge play a day-long game of Civ or Minecraft every 2 months or so. Really helps to switch gears in the brain away from business / soc

My guilty pleasure is to binge play a day-long game of Civ or Minecraft every 2 months or so. Really helps to switch gears in the brain away from business / social obligations / continuing education / exercise / outdoors / etc. Extremely non-productive waste of time from a societal point of view, but I feel like it helps me recover.

brnt 7y ago
Just one more turn ;) Productivity is a Protestant value (labour is the way to a good life and thus God). I find that, even though you and I are probably no longer religious, such values have huge staying power. I for one accept that this value deserves a bunch of footnotes. You are very right: Labour amd our society is something to recover from. We (from this cultural zone at least) should start to accept we don't have to be temporarily embarrased hard workers anymore. Hard work is outdated and overrated, it's time we stop seeing this life as a means to get into heaven, or at least have values that boil down to that, but as a goal in its own right.
- atomi 7y ago
  Working hard is a shared value across all religious and ethnic backgrounds. People, generally, really seem to value effort and productivity. Go figure.
  - brnt 7y ago
    It's not exclusive to protestantism, ofcourse. But they're special in that it's an explicit way to please god. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
    - harperlee 7y ago
      There is a similar phenomenon inside catholicism with Opus Dei, which teaches that anyone can become a saint through labor, which is akin to prayer. Its numerary members forgo family and independency and devote themselves to just work (similar to a modern monk, but without exiting society). Interestingly, the result is that you end up with an organization full of people with successful careers, including positions of power. As they are also quite secretive, this generates colourful conspiracy theories.
  - aamargulies 7y ago
    Without work there is no play.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      You'd be surprised...
  - otakucode 7y ago
    It made sense in the past. But, it's not actually focused on productivity, it focuses specifically on suffering and the effort. When productivity is possible without strenuous effort, something which wasn't very common in the past (it was possible in things like art, which was consequently never valued as highly as dogged physical labor), it is viewed with suspicion and derision. Society is structured around placing high value on sacrifice and suffering as a consequence of the Protestant Work Ethic in the west. Productivity is beside the point. I believe this is one of the main reasons why the introduction of computers has resulted in skyrocketing productivity paired with frozen wages, and it will get worse. As everything was built around the idea of rewarding physical exhaustion, discomfort, strenuous effort, etc, when the majority of work is mental work which has no real outward signs of strain, it won't be rewarded. As a result, longer and longer hours will be expected, wages will not rise, and any cries for understanding by workers will be met with derision by the public at large. "It's not like you're working hard." Working hard is valued, and should be pursued for its own value. Asking for compensation is crass and devalues your effort. Being productive without suffering or straining is not valued. It is seen as "cheating" and whatever is produced is seen as inherently less valuable. These are problematic perspectives that are causing us social problems and will continue to do so until there is a social re-evaluation of things. Until then... burnout for everybody!
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      "knowledge workers" generally enjoy the highest compensation of any working class in history. Athletes and (famous) actors beat them, but they barely constitute a class.
      - otakucode 7y ago
        And how does society view those people? Deserving of their compensation, and the general overall view is that they earned that money?
        maxerickson 7y ago
        Well, it depends on if you want to measure based on loud critics or the compensation they are receiving. That is, getting paid a certain salary is some sort of statement that you deserve it.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    It is, however, not a value shared across time in those religious and ethnic backgrounds, and anthropology shows this. Religion tends to incorporate ideology, not just produce it. It is entirely reasonable to say that there is a "capitalist work ethic" that finds its fruition in societies with generalized commodity production. The same work ethic was not found in many more isolated countries, or those countries which resisted capital. It was not nearly as strong (and had different motivations) in feudal and slave modes of production. It is absolutely not some kind of eternal human nature common to us all to value hard work, and it is not even an emergent phenomenon in many cultures - until, as I said, they come under the sway of capital.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Religion tends to incorporate ideology, not just produce it. This. Religion is basically a convenient vehicle for "lifestyle", "ethics" and "ideology", encoded in stories, symbols, and imperatives. (Which is also why modern "atheist" phenomena like soviet communism or Californian ideology are themselves religious in nature).
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Working hard is a shared value across all religious and ethnic backgrounds. You'd be surprised. And let's not even go into the ancient Greeks, and Romans, where "working hard" was for the lesser classes (not necessarily slaves), and it was not considered a great virtue. As Nietchze noted, nobility and honor were attached solely to "otium and bellum" (leisure and war).
    - atomi 7y ago
      You can work hard at war too.
      - coldtea 7y ago
        "Work" in this context is not about spending effort or not, it's about the object of work and the motivation for it...
- Tade0 7y ago
  I find that, even though you and I are probably no longer religious, such values have huge staying power. I'll do you one better - it propagated to my, firmly catholic, country and apparently it's here to stay even though no one ever associated it with religion. We're now among some of the most overworked nations in Europe.
  - rathel 7y ago
    Are you by any chance from Poland? It's so frustrating that many people here work themselves to death, using up rest of their time for the time-sinks called children. After that they have no time left for participating in the civil society, contribute to open source or otherwise make impact in their community.
    - vageli 7y ago
      Respectfully, childrearing arguably has very deep impacts on the local community.
      - rathel 7y ago
        Yes, but if you are not overworked then you can use that time to take care of the children. Also, for some reason people don't use help of grandparents as often anymore. Like they say: you're not your job, or: you're not your code, maybe we should say: you're not your children. They are important, but not everything.
    - jazzyjackson 7y ago
      Pray tell what is the community for if not to raise children?
    - copperx 7y ago
      Only in this forum you will find someone arguing that contributing to open source is better for society than being a good parent.

brnt 7y ago

Just one more turn ;) Productivity is a Protestant value (labour is the way to a good life and thus God). I find that, even though you and I are probably no longer religious, such values have huge staying power. I for one accept that this value deserves a bunch of footnotes. You are very right: Labour amd our society is something to recover from. We (from this cultural zone at least) should start to accept we don't have to be temporarily embarrased hard workers anymore. Hard work is outdated and overrated, it's time we stop seeing this life as a means to get into heaven, or at least have values that boil down to that, but as a goal in its own right.

atomi 7y ago
Working hard is a shared value across all religious and ethnic backgrounds. People, generally, really seem to value effort and productivity. Go figure.
- brnt 7y ago
  It's not exclusive to protestantism, ofcourse. But they're special in that it's an explicit way to please god. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
  - harperlee 7y ago
    There is a similar phenomenon inside catholicism with Opus Dei, which teaches that anyone can become a saint through labor, which is akin to prayer. Its numerary members forgo family and independency and devote themselves to just work (similar to a modern monk, but without exiting society). Interestingly, the result is that you end up with an organization full of people with successful careers, including positions of power. As they are also quite secretive, this generates colourful conspiracy theories.
- aamargulies 7y ago
  Without work there is no play.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    You'd be surprised...
- otakucode 7y ago
  It made sense in the past. But, it's not actually focused on productivity, it focuses specifically on suffering and the effort. When productivity is possible without strenuous effort, something which wasn't very common in the past (it was possible in things like art, which was consequently never valued as highly as dogged physical labor), it is viewed with suspicion and derision. Society is structured around placing high value on sacrifice and suffering as a consequence of the Protestant Work Ethic in the west. Productivity is beside the point. I believe this is one of the main reasons why the introduction of computers has resulted in skyrocketing productivity paired with frozen wages, and it will get worse. As everything was built around the idea of rewarding physical exhaustion, discomfort, strenuous effort, etc, when the majority of work is mental work which has no real outward signs of strain, it won't be rewarded. As a result, longer and longer hours will be expected, wages will not rise, and any cries for understanding by workers will be met with derision by the public at large. "It's not like you're working hard." Working hard is valued, and should be pursued for its own value. Asking for compensation is crass and devalues your effort. Being productive without suffering or straining is not valued. It is seen as "cheating" and whatever is produced is seen as inherently less valuable. These are problematic perspectives that are causing us social problems and will continue to do so until there is a social re-evaluation of things. Until then... burnout for everybody!
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    "knowledge workers" generally enjoy the highest compensation of any working class in history. Athletes and (famous) actors beat them, but they barely constitute a class.
    - otakucode 7y ago
      And how does society view those people? Deserving of their compensation, and the general overall view is that they earned that money?
      - maxerickson 7y ago
        Well, it depends on if you want to measure based on loud critics or the compensation they are receiving. That is, getting paid a certain salary is some sort of statement that you deserve it.
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  It is, however, not a value shared across time in those religious and ethnic backgrounds, and anthropology shows this. Religion tends to incorporate ideology, not just produce it. It is entirely reasonable to say that there is a "capitalist work ethic" that finds its fruition in societies with generalized commodity production. The same work ethic was not found in many more isolated countries, or those countries which resisted capital. It was not nearly as strong (and had different motivations) in feudal and slave modes of production. It is absolutely not some kind of eternal human nature common to us all to value hard work, and it is not even an emergent phenomenon in many cultures - until, as I said, they come under the sway of capital.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Religion tends to incorporate ideology, not just produce it. This. Religion is basically a convenient vehicle for "lifestyle", "ethics" and "ideology", encoded in stories, symbols, and imperatives. (Which is also why modern "atheist" phenomena like soviet communism or Californian ideology are themselves religious in nature).
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Working hard is a shared value across all religious and ethnic backgrounds. You'd be surprised. And let's not even go into the ancient Greeks, and Romans, where "working hard" was for the lesser classes (not necessarily slaves), and it was not considered a great virtue. As Nietchze noted, nobility and honor were attached solely to "otium and bellum" (leisure and war).
  - atomi 7y ago
    You can work hard at war too.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      "Work" in this context is not about spending effort or not, it's about the object of work and the motivation for it...
Tade0 7y ago
I find that, even though you and I are probably no longer religious, such values have huge staying power. I'll do you one better - it propagated to my, firmly catholic, country and apparently it's here to stay even though no one ever associated it with religion. We're now among some of the most overworked nations in Europe.
- rathel 7y ago
  Are you by any chance from Poland? It's so frustrating that many people here work themselves to death, using up rest of their time for the time-sinks called children. After that they have no time left for participating in the civil society, contribute to open source or otherwise make impact in their community.
  - vageli 7y ago
    Respectfully, childrearing arguably has very deep impacts on the local community.
    - rathel 7y ago
      Yes, but if you are not overworked then you can use that time to take care of the children. Also, for some reason people don't use help of grandparents as often anymore. Like they say: you're not your job, or: you're not your code, maybe we should say: you're not your children. They are important, but not everything.
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    Pray tell what is the community for if not to raise children?
  - copperx 7y ago
    Only in this forum you will find someone arguing that contributing to open source is better for society than being a good parent.