4 ms·

If you want to make people suffer, teach them to use the PRIMARY clipboard

11 points by blueflow 7y ago

ktpsns 7y ago
Well, the UI designers certainly didn't know about the PRIMARY keyboard. And to be honest, most Linux users also don't. Does Wayland still support the PRIMARY clipboard?
- jolmg 7y ago
  Hopefully. I find it to be more ergonomic as it requires fewer steps and only a single device, the mouse. Just select text and click wherever you want to paste it. The only problem I've found is, as the article notes, with some "smart" text GUIs like some textareas in some websites and any text in a browser's web inspector. I have a clipboard manager that synchronizes both clipboards, so in those cases I can just Ctrl-C and then paste with middleclick.
- Finkregh 7y ago
  Yes it does
Dylan16807 7y ago
> Acessibility matters. Okay, but there's no reason accessibility needs to be tied to one clipboard and not the other. And the system that automatically copies because it thinks I might want to paste is the worse one. Shift+Insert is a good paste combo for terminals, but I prefer that to use the same clipboard as Ctrl+V.
- jolmg 7y ago
  > Okay, but there's no reason accessibility needs to be tied to one clipboard and not the other. Yeah, tying it to accessibility doesn't make sense. I think they probably meant usability or whatever word conveys the idea of building an interface that doesn't break pre-existing interface features or that align with the rest of the system's conventions. Kind of like how some websites have buttons that can only be activated with the mouse because they work by being bound to a click event, and so that breaks the expectation that every link or button can be activated with the keyboard's Enter key. > And the system that automatically copies because it thinks I might want to paste is the worse one. I really don't see the benefit of requiring an extra step to indicate that you want to copy, much less from a different device. Do you often find it a problem that it's done automatically? Like do you often select foo, then select bar, and want to paste foo? That's probably the only benefit Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V has over PRIMARY selection. Or maybe you think selecting actually copies text? It only causes the program to tell the X server that it holds the PRIMARY selection. No text is actually copied until you paste it.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    > Or maybe you think selecting actually copies text? It only causes the program to tell the X server that it holds the PRIMARY selection. No text is actually copied until you paste it. It's not copied to a clipboard? So if the text I selected goes away before I paste, I can no longer paste? Great. > I really don't see the benefit of requiring an extra step to indicate that you want to copy, much less from a different device. Do you often find it a problem that it's done automatically? Like do you often select foo, then select bar, and want to paste foo? That's probably the only benefit Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V has over PRIMARY selection. Sometimes I just select things, and don't want them etched into my clipboard. Sometimes I want to paste over existing text, like you said. Sometimes I want to copy non-text things. Sometimes I'm dragging things around and don't want that messing with my clipboard. And I don't want an errant click, or a click intending to menu/scroll, to cause me to paste whatever happens to be on my clipboard. And I almost never copy and paste text without using the keyboard to do other things too, so I don't really see why you think it's a benefit that the copy/paste itself only needs one device.
    - jolmg 7y ago
      > and don't want that messing with my clipboard Then I guess it's a good thing that CLIPBOARD and PRIMARY selection are separate and not synchronized by default. If you only use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, there's no need to realize PRIMARY selection even exists. Selecting does not mess with the Ctrl-C clipboard. > And I don't want an errant click, or a click intending to menu/scroll, to cause me to paste whatever happens to be on my clipboard. Yes, I guess that's a valid concern. Personally, I prefer the feature than having the system do nothing when I middleclick a text field.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        > Then I guess it's a good thing that CLIPBOARD and PRIMARY selection are separate and not synchronized by default. Wasn't this a theoretical about if I did switch to using PRIMARY, why I would be upset? Wherever I wrote "clipboard", I mean all copy and paste mechanisms. I don't want it messing with anything. And I really don't need two or three of them. Let me have one, which is bound to both sets of key combos and no naked mouse actions. > Personally, I prefer the feature than having the system do nothing when I middleclick a text field. Middle click scrolls for me.
jolmg 7y ago
So the other day, I found that emacs supports X's SECONDARY selection by holding Alt before selecting on text. Does anyone know of another program besides emacs that supports SECONDARY selection?
johnisgood 7y ago
> Wanna copy a git url from Github to your terminal? NOPE. But it works for me... I selected the the git URL, and then used the middle button to paste it into my terminal (xterm). It works. OK, I can see why auto-selection may be an issue, but it works after the second time (i.e. after you selected it yourself). It would be better if there was no auto-selection upon left clicking, but it is not that much of an issue. In fact, if I left click on the git URL which makes the entire URL selected, I can press Ctrl-C and then use the middle click to paste it into my terminal, no extra step required, so auto-selection is not an issue in this case. shrugs.
chriscappuccio 7y ago
Shift + insert causes the app clipboard to paste in xterm for me, but perhaps that's some .configuration file setting I already forgot about

11 points by blueflow 7y ago

Well, the UI designers certainly didn't know about the PRIMARY keyboard. And to be honest, most Linux users also don't. Does Wayland still support the PRIMARY clipboard?

jolmg 7y ago
Hopefully. I find it to be more ergonomic as it requires fewer steps and only a single device, the mouse. Just select text and click wherever you want to paste it. The only problem I've found is, as the article notes, with some "smart" text GUIs like some textareas in some websites and any text in a browser's web inspector. I have a clipboard manager that synchronizes both clipboards, so in those cases I can just Ctrl-C and then paste with middleclick.
Finkregh 7y ago
Yes it does

Dylan16807 7y ago

> Acessibility matters. Okay, but there's no reason accessibility needs to be tied to one clipboard and not the other. And the system that automatically copies because it thinks I might want to paste is the worse one. Shift+Insert is a good paste combo for terminals, but I prefer that to use the same clipboard as Ctrl+V.

jolmg 7y ago
> Okay, but there's no reason accessibility needs to be tied to one clipboard and not the other. Yeah, tying it to accessibility doesn't make sense. I think they probably meant usability or whatever word conveys the idea of building an interface that doesn't break pre-existing interface features or that align with the rest of the system's conventions. Kind of like how some websites have buttons that can only be activated with the mouse because they work by being bound to a click event, and so that breaks the expectation that every link or button can be activated with the keyboard's Enter key. > And the system that automatically copies because it thinks I might want to paste is the worse one. I really don't see the benefit of requiring an extra step to indicate that you want to copy, much less from a different device. Do you often find it a problem that it's done automatically? Like do you often select foo, then select bar, and want to paste foo? That's probably the only benefit Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V has over PRIMARY selection. Or maybe you think selecting actually copies text? It only causes the program to tell the X server that it holds the PRIMARY selection. No text is actually copied until you paste it.
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  > Or maybe you think selecting actually copies text? It only causes the program to tell the X server that it holds the PRIMARY selection. No text is actually copied until you paste it. It's not copied to a clipboard? So if the text I selected goes away before I paste, I can no longer paste? Great. > I really don't see the benefit of requiring an extra step to indicate that you want to copy, much less from a different device. Do you often find it a problem that it's done automatically? Like do you often select foo, then select bar, and want to paste foo? That's probably the only benefit Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V has over PRIMARY selection. Sometimes I just select things, and don't want them etched into my clipboard. Sometimes I want to paste over existing text, like you said. Sometimes I want to copy non-text things. Sometimes I'm dragging things around and don't want that messing with my clipboard. And I don't want an errant click, or a click intending to menu/scroll, to cause me to paste whatever happens to be on my clipboard. And I almost never copy and paste text without using the keyboard to do other things too, so I don't really see why you think it's a benefit that the copy/paste itself only needs one device.
  - jolmg 7y ago
    > and don't want that messing with my clipboard Then I guess it's a good thing that CLIPBOARD and PRIMARY selection are separate and not synchronized by default. If you only use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, there's no need to realize PRIMARY selection even exists. Selecting does not mess with the Ctrl-C clipboard. > And I don't want an errant click, or a click intending to menu/scroll, to cause me to paste whatever happens to be on my clipboard. Yes, I guess that's a valid concern. Personally, I prefer the feature than having the system do nothing when I middleclick a text field.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      > Then I guess it's a good thing that CLIPBOARD and PRIMARY selection are separate and not synchronized by default. Wasn't this a theoretical about if I did switch to using PRIMARY, why I would be upset? Wherever I wrote "clipboard", I mean all copy and paste mechanisms. I don't want it messing with anything. And I really don't need two or three of them. Let me have one, which is bound to both sets of key combos and no naked mouse actions. > Personally, I prefer the feature than having the system do nothing when I middleclick a text field. Middle click scrolls for me.

jolmg 7y ago

So the other day, I found that emacs supports X's SECONDARY selection by holding Alt before selecting on text. Does anyone know of another program besides emacs that supports SECONDARY selection?

johnisgood 7y ago

> Wanna copy a git url from Github to your terminal? NOPE. But it works for me... I selected the the git URL, and then used the middle button to paste it into my terminal (xterm). It works. OK, I can see why auto-selection may be an issue, but it works after the second time (i.e. after you selected it yourself). It would be better if there was no auto-selection upon left clicking, but it is not that much of an issue. In fact, if I left click on the git URL which makes the entire URL selected, I can press Ctrl-C and then use the middle click to paste it into my terminal, no extra step required, so auto-selection is not an issue in this case. shrugs.

chriscappuccio 7y ago

Shift + insert causes the app clipboard to paste in xterm for me, but perhaps that's some .configuration file setting I already forgot about