6 ms·

Just for fun, same sentence on health care. > I'm so happy about this. Private health care insure are the scum of the earth. They're totally antithetical to a

by etaty 7y ago

Just for fun, same sentence on health care. > I'm so happy about this. Private health care insure are the scum of the earth. They're totally antithetical to a free society that values human life. They often lobby for minimum health care coverage in law (effectively requiring by law a certain percentage of citizens to be marked as clients). Any profit they skim off the top is money that should be spent on research and education. Next up should be criminalizing charging huge quantities for basic health care by private hospitals and the usurious fees on drugs. I'd wager $1 in their pockets costs society easily 10X that.

arcticbull 7y ago
Yes, I'm also in favor of socialized medicine for basically exactly these reasons. Shocker, I know. The system works! I grew up in socialized medicine, and you get sick, you go to the hospital, they treat you and you leave. There's no step 4. Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems is beyond me. It's all in y'alls control.
- luckydata 7y ago
  Because they've been sold lies for years and most of them can't really believe everything they know about such an important aspect of their life is bull.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  > Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems They've been told socialized medicine is evil communist plot to steal their hard earned money. Many Americans have not been outside of the states and have no concept of what life in other countries might be like. There's a good percentage of Americans that are completely ignorant of how the rest of the world does things, and also dismiss this as inferior. They've been told their entire life that the US is the greatest country, so, why would we do it any other way?
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Your comment seems flatly accurate and yet you get downvoted. I still can’t understand this phenomenon.
    - abugheratwork 7y ago
      > They've been told socialized medicine is evil communist plot to steal their hard earned money. Mind reading a bit, here: This line might be taken as an ungenerous representation of a different point of view, and likely to generate more emotional argument than productive discussion.
    - bborud 7y ago
      I think he points out why: people don’t know any better.
    - tim333 7y ago
      He implies the reason is that US voters are ignorant. As well as being a bit impolite I'm not sure that's case. The strange US system started I think as a stitch up between US insurance companies and Richard Nixon and there are ongoing vested interests making it very hard to change. Here's a survey result: >Even Republican voters seemed to disagree with certain conservative ideology on health care. The Hill-HarrisX survey found that 26 percent of GOP voters said they wanted the government to stop paying for health care, while a total of 53 percent favored some form of universal government-provided insurance. Twenty-one percent said they want to keep the current health care system in place. So it seems more like the public would prefer universal government-provided insurance but the political system is not good at following their wishes rather than those of the various lobbyists etc.
  - zeptoon 7y ago
    Damn straight
  - nwallin 7y ago
    All of the people I know who are strongly opposed to government run healthcare are veterans. They are people who have spent 4-20 years of their life with government run healthcare. One guy I knew went to the doctor complaining about blood in his poop. Was prescribed pepto bismal. Went back a few months later. Same thing. Went back a few months later, same thing. This pattern repeated for a little bit over a year. Eventually, he got a colonoscopy. Stage 4 colon cancer. He passed away a few months later. A friend of mine went to the doctor with a fucked up ankle. Swollen to the size of a grapefruit. They wrapped it and gave him 800mg Motrin. Week later, same thing. Repeat x4. During the last trip, the doctor was giving him the scrip for another bottle of Motrin, when another (higher ranked) doctor recognized him and ordered the junior doctor to do an x ray. The junior doctor protested but did it anyway because it's the military. Fractured ankle. By this point it was mostly healed, so too late to put a cast on it. Fortunately it hadn't healed wrong, so it didn't need to be rebroken. Vet communities are full of stories like this. And veterans, people who have had government healthcare for years to decades, are the population group most opposed to government run healthcare. This doesn't necessarily mean government run healthcare is bad; the military is disfunctional in many ways. But your assertion that opposition to government run healthcare is based in ignorance is absolutely, completely false.
- kenhwang 7y ago
  There's a choice component to health. Sure, you can lose the genetic or environmental lottery and just be unhealthy. Or you can choose to be unhealthy. Smoking, drinking, drugs, poor diet, lack of exercise. These are by far the biggest contributors to healthcare cost and they cost absolutely nothing to prevent. Many people just don't take responsibility for their health, and many others in the US don't like the idea of subsidizing other people's healthcare for preventable or self-inflicted health complications. edit: I actually do have access to one of the best single payer systems in the world due to dual citizenship. Single-payer is far from the perfect silver bullet everyone likes to sell it as.
  - luma 7y ago
    I think what you're getting at is that in the US, people have a financial incentive to be healthier due to the cost of health care. How is that working out? Does the average American eat healthier, do more exercise, consumer fewer drinks, or do fewer drugs?
    - kenhwang 7y ago
      I actually don't think it's working out. People in general are awful at risk assessment. But, Americans like their choice, even if it means the majority of them will make poor ones. It's also a downward spiral. The more people are responsible for their own well being, the more they're opposed to "handouts". So those who do take of themselves and do responsibly manage risks I've noticed are the ones more opposed to socialized medicine.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      Hm, this is a good point. US provably has the greatest incentive to live healthy due to having the provably highest health care costs. That is a rational and reasonable argument. Yet you get downvoted for it which is interesting. I think you make a good point though.
  - gerbilly 7y ago
    > many others in the US don't like the idea of subsidizing other people's healthcare for preventable or self-inflicted health complications. Who cares really? It costs a bit more to care for people in dollars and cents, but it fosters a better society, which everyone benefits from. Another case of people wanting to be freeriders.
- archie2 7y ago
  There is a step 4: pay exorbitant tax rates.
  - c0nducktr 7y ago
    Incorrect. Americans spend twice as much for healthcare as other first world countries.
    - archie2 7y ago
      The US government already spends at least 10k per capita on healthcare - without even having a socialized medecine. More than double that of Canada at 4.8k per capita. The United States is not a free market healthcare system - it's literally the worst parts of both capitalist and socialized systems with none of the benefits of either. Also: I am Canadian, I spent nearly 50% of my earned income last year on just taxes. I also live in the most expensive city in the country. 90% of my medical expenses I've had in the past 10 years came from private practices that I paid out of pocket with a smidgen of private insurance that cushioned the blow a bit. The Canadian system is nowhere near as great as ignorant Americans like to believe.
      - arcticbull 7y ago
        I grew up in Canada, have family there I visit regularly and live in America. The tax rate in California top marginal is higher than Ontario and yet one includes healthcare. You don’t think you can spent 50% of your marginal income on taxes in California? I think with the state taxes no longer deductible it’s closer to 55%. I’ve only ever had great interactions with OHIP.
        archie2 7y ago
        You couldn't pay me to step foot in California.
        arcticbull 7y ago
- dictum 7y ago
  > Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems is beyond me. It's all in y'alls control. https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2911271-america-and-americans-and-selected-nonfiction#quote_book_link_202399 https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2911271-america-and-am...
- jjeaff 7y ago
  Because when people talk about how terrible healthcare is here, it's usually people who don't have or can't afford good insurance. And by good, I mean covers most everything and doesn't have a huge out of pocket. If you have good health insurance, the healthcare in the US is absolutely top tier. Many people that complain are getting a plan with a huge deductible either because they are being cheap or can't afford better. But I think in a lot of cases it's the former. People just don't prioritize health care. Many would rather trade in their 2 year old car for a brand new one.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Even people with good health insurance find all the paperwork a pain in the ass. I'd far rather have decent, not luxury healthcare and no damn paperwork, when I'm sick I am not interested in dealing with administrative nonsense. The entire health insurance industry is parasitical.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      I have never had much paperwork besides a few signatures. And we have had some extensive procedures.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    “I’d rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man behind bars” -some American dude
marcosdumay 7y ago
They key difference is that health care clients want their services. But while the exact rationale doesn't hold, there are inherent problems on competition and freedom of choice on health care that kinda break capitalism. There is also the rationale that one does want minimum health care coverage in a society, and a market is not able to provide that.
lacampbell 7y ago
How expensive is health care in the US? IE, in my country dentistry is fully private, and it costs about 100 USD for a teeth cleaning. How much is that in America?
- coldtea 7y ago
  Once in the US, I was quoted $200 for busting a cyst that had developed on my finger due to small cut/infection (this service in my European country is offered for nearly free in any pharmacy). Instead I went to a Walgreens, bought a pin, a lighter, some ethanol, and a band-aid for like $5, and did it myself...
- NortySpock 7y ago
  Dentistry is private with some insurance options in the US, and I (in the suburbs of a large city in the Midwest) would have paid about $100 for a teeth cleaning had my dental insurance not paid for it. (My dental insurance is about $25 a month and covers most of major oral surgery if needed. My root canal cost about $350 with insurance recently)
- FoxPaw 7y ago
  Just a cleaning without x-rays? About $100-300. Dental isn't really indicative of "how expensive health care is" though. Lots of U.S. dental and vision "insurance" plans are really just mandatory subscription plans since their bills are pretty consistent, and anything that might cost more gets you a referral to a hospital. It's when you visit a hospital (voluntarily or via emergency ambulance) that you'll start getting the $1,000 - $100,000 bills that'll kill ya.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I would wager just a cleaning without x-rays would rarely exceed $100. I live in a very expensive California city and it's about $160 for a cleaning with x-rays. And it's not a discount dental shop.
    - kube-system 7y ago
hndamien 7y ago
I just realised I am in a private prison.
- Dedi9688 7y ago
  .
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20955522 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20955522.

by etaty 7y ago

arcticbull 7y ago

Yes, I'm also in favor of socialized medicine for basically exactly these reasons. Shocker, I know. The system works! I grew up in socialized medicine, and you get sick, you go to the hospital, they treat you and you leave. There's no step 4. Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems is beyond me. It's all in y'alls control.

luckydata 7y ago
Because they've been sold lies for years and most of them can't really believe everything they know about such an important aspect of their life is bull.
jorblumesea 7y ago
> Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems They've been told socialized medicine is evil communist plot to steal their hard earned money. Many Americans have not been outside of the states and have no concept of what life in other countries might be like. There's a good percentage of Americans that are completely ignorant of how the rest of the world does things, and also dismiss this as inferior. They've been told their entire life that the US is the greatest country, so, why would we do it any other way?
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Your comment seems flatly accurate and yet you get downvoted. I still can’t understand this phenomenon.
  - abugheratwork 7y ago
    > They've been told socialized medicine is evil communist plot to steal their hard earned money. Mind reading a bit, here: This line might be taken as an ungenerous representation of a different point of view, and likely to generate more emotional argument than productive discussion.
  - bborud 7y ago
    I think he points out why: people don’t know any better.
  - tim333 7y ago
    He implies the reason is that US voters are ignorant. As well as being a bit impolite I'm not sure that's case. The strange US system started I think as a stitch up between US insurance companies and Richard Nixon and there are ongoing vested interests making it very hard to change. Here's a survey result: >Even Republican voters seemed to disagree with certain conservative ideology on health care. The Hill-HarrisX survey found that 26 percent of GOP voters said they wanted the government to stop paying for health care, while a total of 53 percent favored some form of universal government-provided insurance. Twenty-one percent said they want to keep the current health care system in place. So it seems more like the public would prefer universal government-provided insurance but the political system is not good at following their wishes rather than those of the various lobbyists etc.
- zeptoon 7y ago
  Damn straight
- nwallin 7y ago
  All of the people I know who are strongly opposed to government run healthcare are veterans. They are people who have spent 4-20 years of their life with government run healthcare. One guy I knew went to the doctor complaining about blood in his poop. Was prescribed pepto bismal. Went back a few months later. Same thing. Went back a few months later, same thing. This pattern repeated for a little bit over a year. Eventually, he got a colonoscopy. Stage 4 colon cancer. He passed away a few months later. A friend of mine went to the doctor with a fucked up ankle. Swollen to the size of a grapefruit. They wrapped it and gave him 800mg Motrin. Week later, same thing. Repeat x4. During the last trip, the doctor was giving him the scrip for another bottle of Motrin, when another (higher ranked) doctor recognized him and ordered the junior doctor to do an x ray. The junior doctor protested but did it anyway because it's the military. Fractured ankle. By this point it was mostly healed, so too late to put a cast on it. Fortunately it hadn't healed wrong, so it didn't need to be rebroken. Vet communities are full of stories like this. And veterans, people who have had government healthcare for years to decades, are the population group most opposed to government run healthcare. This doesn't necessarily mean government run healthcare is bad; the military is disfunctional in many ways. But your assertion that opposition to government run healthcare is based in ignorance is absolutely, completely false.
kenhwang 7y ago
There's a choice component to health. Sure, you can lose the genetic or environmental lottery and just be unhealthy. Or you can choose to be unhealthy. Smoking, drinking, drugs, poor diet, lack of exercise. These are by far the biggest contributors to healthcare cost and they cost absolutely nothing to prevent. Many people just don't take responsibility for their health, and many others in the US don't like the idea of subsidizing other people's healthcare for preventable or self-inflicted health complications. edit: I actually do have access to one of the best single payer systems in the world due to dual citizenship. Single-payer is far from the perfect silver bullet everyone likes to sell it as.
- luma 7y ago
  I think what you're getting at is that in the US, people have a financial incentive to be healthier due to the cost of health care. How is that working out? Does the average American eat healthier, do more exercise, consumer fewer drinks, or do fewer drugs?
  - kenhwang 7y ago
    I actually don't think it's working out. People in general are awful at risk assessment. But, Americans like their choice, even if it means the majority of them will make poor ones. It's also a downward spiral. The more people are responsible for their own well being, the more they're opposed to "handouts". So those who do take of themselves and do responsibly manage risks I've noticed are the ones more opposed to socialized medicine.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    Hm, this is a good point. US provably has the greatest incentive to live healthy due to having the provably highest health care costs. That is a rational and reasonable argument. Yet you get downvoted for it which is interesting. I think you make a good point though.
- gerbilly 7y ago
  > many others in the US don't like the idea of subsidizing other people's healthcare for preventable or self-inflicted health complications. Who cares really? It costs a bit more to care for people in dollars and cents, but it fosters a better society, which everyone benefits from. Another case of people wanting to be freeriders.
archie2 7y ago
There is a step 4: pay exorbitant tax rates.
- c0nducktr 7y ago
  Incorrect. Americans spend twice as much for healthcare as other first world countries.
  - archie2 7y ago
    The US government already spends at least 10k per capita on healthcare - without even having a socialized medecine. More than double that of Canada at 4.8k per capita. The United States is not a free market healthcare system - it's literally the worst parts of both capitalist and socialized systems with none of the benefits of either. Also: I am Canadian, I spent nearly 50% of my earned income last year on just taxes. I also live in the most expensive city in the country. 90% of my medical expenses I've had in the past 10 years came from private practices that I paid out of pocket with a smidgen of private insurance that cushioned the blow a bit. The Canadian system is nowhere near as great as ignorant Americans like to believe.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      I grew up in Canada, have family there I visit regularly and live in America. The tax rate in California top marginal is higher than Ontario and yet one includes healthcare. You don’t think you can spent 50% of your marginal income on taxes in California? I think with the state taxes no longer deductible it’s closer to 55%. I’ve only ever had great interactions with OHIP.
      - archie2 7y ago
        You couldn't pay me to step foot in California.
        arcticbull 7y ago
dictum 7y ago
> Why Americans continue to willingly subject themselves to these torturous systems is beyond me. It's all in y'alls control. https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2911271-america-and-americans-and-selected-nonfiction#quote_book_link_202399 https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2911271-america-and-am...
jjeaff 7y ago
Because when people talk about how terrible healthcare is here, it's usually people who don't have or can't afford good insurance. And by good, I mean covers most everything and doesn't have a huge out of pocket. If you have good health insurance, the healthcare in the US is absolutely top tier. Many people that complain are getting a plan with a huge deductible either because they are being cheap or can't afford better. But I think in a lot of cases it's the former. People just don't prioritize health care. Many would rather trade in their 2 year old car for a brand new one.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Even people with good health insurance find all the paperwork a pain in the ass. I'd far rather have decent, not luxury healthcare and no damn paperwork, when I'm sick I am not interested in dealing with administrative nonsense. The entire health insurance industry is parasitical.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I have never had much paperwork besides a few signatures. And we have had some extensive procedures.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- arcticbull 7y ago
  “I’d rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man behind bars” -some American dude

marcosdumay 7y ago

They key difference is that health care clients want their services. But while the exact rationale doesn't hold, there are inherent problems on competition and freedom of choice on health care that kinda break capitalism. There is also the rationale that one does want minimum health care coverage in a society, and a market is not able to provide that.

lacampbell 7y ago

How expensive is health care in the US? IE, in my country dentistry is fully private, and it costs about 100 USD for a teeth cleaning. How much is that in America?

coldtea 7y ago
Once in the US, I was quoted $200 for busting a cyst that had developed on my finger due to small cut/infection (this service in my European country is offered for nearly free in any pharmacy). Instead I went to a Walgreens, bought a pin, a lighter, some ethanol, and a band-aid for like $5, and did it myself...
NortySpock 7y ago
Dentistry is private with some insurance options in the US, and I (in the suburbs of a large city in the Midwest) would have paid about $100 for a teeth cleaning had my dental insurance not paid for it. (My dental insurance is about $25 a month and covers most of major oral surgery if needed. My root canal cost about $350 with insurance recently)
FoxPaw 7y ago
Just a cleaning without x-rays? About $100-300. Dental isn't really indicative of "how expensive health care is" though. Lots of U.S. dental and vision "insurance" plans are really just mandatory subscription plans since their bills are pretty consistent, and anything that might cost more gets you a referral to a hospital. It's when you visit a hospital (voluntarily or via emergency ambulance) that you'll start getting the $1,000 - $100,000 bills that'll kill ya.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  I would wager just a cleaning without x-rays would rarely exceed $100. I live in a very expensive California city and it's about $160 for a cleaning with x-rays. And it's not a discount dental shop.
  - kube-system 7y ago

hndamien 7y ago

I just realised I am in a private prison.

Dedi9688 7y ago
.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20955522 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20955522.